Obligations of devs and teams towards investors

[dogtana]

I get really ticked off when people say devs and teams owe infestors nothing. Tokens and coins are not a security, devs and teams can do what they want, essentially investors are just milking cows. Yes, legally in most countries there are no regulated obligations (yet) of devs and teams. But try taking that argument to a mobster and you will see what happens.

This logic is flawed. Devs and teams raised ICO money so they didn't need to sell shares and stocks of their businesses!!! Or at least not as much. They got free money, have their cake and they eat it too. So they have MORAL obligations towards investors at the very least. They will soon have legal obligations too, I am sure.

Presenting situation maliciously in such a way that a person is convinced into decreasing of their assets so that they suffer damage is called a fraud. Frauds are criminal activity and as such devs and teams are criminally responsible for fraud. Example: exit scams. Filing civil law suits is applicable too in case of damages. Too many exit scammers get away because people who were scammed do nothing.

Good work, proceeding to develop the technology and putting it out there ARE obligations of devs and teams. And we get to hold them responsible and accuontable for it. They do not get to slack around and abandon the project. No. They also may not intentionally bring price of their coins and tokens down when there are other ways of financing the project.

Devs and teams CANNOT do whatever the hell they want. Period.

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[dogtana]

This topic is not too difficult to discuss, is it?

[HardFireMiner]

I get really ticked off when people say devs and teams owe infestors nothing. Tokens and coins are not a security, devs and teams can do what they want, essentially investors are just milking cows. Yes, legally in most countries there are no regulated obligations (yet) of devs and teams. But try taking that argument to a mobster and you will see what happens.

This logic is flawed. Devs and teams raised ICO money so they didn't need to sell shares and stocks of their businesses!!! Or at least not as much. They got free money, have their cake and they eat it too. So they have MORAL obligations towards investors at the very least. They will soon have legal obligations too, I am sure.

Presenting situation maliciously in such a way that a person is convinced into decreasing of their assets so that they suffer damage is called a fraud. Frauds are criminal activity and as such devs and teams are criminally responsible for fraud. Example: exit scams. Filing civil law suits is applicable too in case of damages. Too many exit scammers get away because people who were scammed do nothing.

Good work, proceeding to develop the technology and putting it out there ARE obligations of devs and teams. And we get to hold them responsible and accuontable for it. They do not get to slack around and abandon the project. No. They also may not intentionally bring price of their coins and tokens down when there are other ways of financing the project.

Devs and teams CANNOT do whatever the hell they want. Period.

They can do whatever they want, the real question here is what you're gonna do about it? Can you somehow get to them? What can you do even if you know them? If it depends on human factor then there are chances of scammers.

No premine, public launch, fair distribution, open source code, good and working as it was created since block zero.
Delivering a good economic instrument is not an easy task, however once the developers are serious they must deliver the instrument since genesis block, this is what I call a good coin - good and doing the exact thing it was created for since day 1.

[JungleEskimo]

They dont owe you anything, you're not an investor. Imagine if you were selling something and a bunch of assholes who spent less than half a penny on tiny little pieces of your products started demanding you increase their value because they think they're the reason you're even alive at all. Unless you bought in with hundreds of thousands at a minimum you're all just a bunch of ants who spent more than they should have

what the fuck do you want them to do for you anyway take time off their actual work to write you a thank you letter? If anything asking devs to do anything more for you is actually harmful to you in the end because you're only distracting them

[JungleEskimo]

also, what you described is not fraud. Fraud is when a person is deceitful for financial or personal gain. You taking a loss because you were "convinced maliciously" to "decrease your value" is your own personal choice. Just as you're free to intimidate people with lawsuits and misrepresent peoples actions to look like they've commited a crime.

[dogtana]

They dont owe you anything, you're not an investor. Imagine if you were selling something and a bunch of assholes who spent less than half a penny on tiny little pieces of your products started demanding you increase their value because they think they're the reason you're even alive at all. Unless you bought in with hundreds of thousands at a minimum you're all just a bunch of ants who spent more than they should have

what the fuck do you want them to do for you anyway take time off their actual work to write you a thank you letter? If anything asking devs to do anything more for you is actually harmful to you in the end because you're only distracting them

If we are not investors, what are we, Santa Clause? Yes, this is a new type of investing, not yet regulated, but it should be.

I literally translated definition of fraud from our penal Code so go sunbathe somewhere. Of course the other side of your financial loss is their gain, duhhh!

Team and devs would never get rich without us so don't go calling us stupid little ants. We have power.

It is ridiculous how some people defend scammers. They are probably one of them, afraid of regulation and legal responsibility.

[JungleEskimo]

first of all we're speculators and im sorry you're so easily manipulated that anytime you lose something you feel that someone else must have defrauded you

[flying_bit]

I get really ticked off when people say devs and teams owe infestors nothing. Tokens and coins are not a security, devs and teams can do what they want, essentially investors are just milking cows. Yes, legally in most countries there are no regulated obligations (yet) of devs and teams. But try taking that argument to a mobster and you will see what happens.

This logic is flawed. Devs and teams raised ICO money so they didn't need to sell shares and stocks of their businesses!!! Or at least not as much. They got free money, have their cake and they eat it too. So they have MORAL obligations towards investors at the very least. They will soon have legal obligations too, I am sure.

Presenting situation maliciously in such a way that a person is convinced into decreasing of their assets so that they suffer damage is called a fraud. Frauds are criminal activity and as such devs and teams are criminally responsible for fraud. Example: exit scams. Filing civil law suits is applicable too in case of damages. Too many exit scammers get away because people who were scammed do nothing.

....Devs and teams CANNOT do whatever the hell they want. Period.

The problem with ICO is that they are not regulated and not govern by any laws. When we join ico, there'a no binding contract and we assume all risk in investing to the project.
Dev team have social obligation but if they refuse to accept it we can't really do anything about it.
And this is why it's very important to check out who's people behind project we want to invest with. Not just their skills and experience but we need to check the background of each member specially the CEO so we will know if that peson is someone respected or known to his field and will not just disappear or slacking around once ico is finished.

[happyme1818]

We all know that the developer and its team have an obligation to their investors but it is still responsibility of the investors to investigate the developers background and its team. Do they have enough knowledge and experience to make the project to be successful? Do they have history of  past scam or not?

[dogtana]

first of all we're speculators and im sorry you're so easily manipulated that anytime you lose something you feel that someone else must have defrauded you

Did you even read my post??? Seriously.

[JungleEskimo]

Oh I read your posts, and here's what I've found:

Because I don't agree with you, you think I didn't read your post

Because you lost value in your assets, you think you were defrauded

Because things don't go your way, it means someone isn't doing the right thing... right?

[dogtana]

Oh I read your posts, and here's what I've found:

Because I don't agree with you, you think I didn't read your post

Because you lost value in your assets, you think you were defrauded

Because things don't go your way, it means someone isn't doing the right thing... right?

No. I specifically mentioned exit scamers and teams that abandon projects or dump their own coins on their community when they are sitting on their rich asses from investors' ETH. Do you have a problem with me being against that? If yes, why, are you one of them? You either didn't read my post or you just aren't very good at understanding words and sentences.

[Herbert2020]

part of your comment is what i have been saying for years! but i don't agree with the "obligation" part. basically for years altcoins and now ICOs have been receiving free money, former through premining and other shenanigans, and the later through I.C.O. and then delivering absolutely nothing apart from another useless token to be added to thousands of other useless tokens and eventually end up in the graveyard.
there is no obligation because you get what you see, if people choose to see something apart from the reality that is their own fault. and because they are not companies, they are random people, most of them kids, releasing a token which you know is useless.

also, what you described is not fraud. Fraud is when a person is deceitful for financial or personal gain. You taking a loss because you were "convinced maliciously" to "decrease your value" is your own personal choice. Just as you're free to intimidate people with lawsuits and misrepresent peoples actions to look like they've commited a crime.

in a way it is fraud.
for example imagine an ICO token which is saying it is going to fix the energy problems, an  ICO that is saying it is being used by medical sector for doctors and patients connecting to each other and having their information stored on the blockchain,.... (these are actual ICOs). then in reality all they do is that they create a useless token which will be traded on exchanges for a while and die eventually.
the team who gave all these promises will stop doing anything apart from coding the smart contract creating that token and going away as soon as they got paid.

this is the classic definition of being deceitful and performing a fraud.

[JungleEskimo]

deceitful lying and marketing something to sell you that something is fraud

making something look worse to make you sell what you already own is not fraud

if you need me to make it even simpler ill try even harder next time

[dogtana]

part of your comment is what i have been saying for years! but i don't agree with the "obligation" part. basically for years altcoins and now ICOs have been receiving free money, former through premining and other shenanigans, and the later through I.C.O. and then delivering absolutely nothing apart from another useless token to be added to thousands of other useless tokens and eventually end up in the graveyard.
there is no obligation because you get what you see, if people choose to see something apart from the reality that is their own fault. and because they are not companies, they are random people, most of them kids, releasing a token which you know is useless.

also, what you described is not fraud. Fraud is when a person is deceitful for financial or personal gain. You taking a loss because you were "convinced maliciously" to "decrease your value" is your own personal choice. Just as you're free to intimidate people with lawsuits and misrepresent peoples actions to look like they've commited a crime.

in a way it is fraud.
for example imagine an ICO token which is saying it is going to fix the energy problems, an  ICO that is saying it is being used by medical sector for doctors and patients connecting to each other and having their information stored on the blockchain,.... (these are actual ICOs). then in reality all they do is that they create a useless token which will be traded on exchanges for a while and die eventually.
the team who gave all these promises will stop doing anything apart from coding the smart contract creating that token and going away as soon as they got paid.

this is the classic definition of being deceitful and performing a fraud.

Not to commit fraud is an obligation. Fraud gives ground to a civil claim too. As for the rest I was talking about moral obligations. Sofar.