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Author Topic: Will customers who have FIAT at Mt. Gox be able to withdraw their FIAT currency?  (Read 1841 times)
JustGotGoxed
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February 28, 2014, 04:33:36 PM
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I just have ONE question, because this applies to me. I have a lot of eur and usd there, and a little bitcoin, but mostly FIAT!

Will customers who have FIAT at Mt. Gox be able to withdraw their FIAT currency?

So, with 850k bitcoin apparently "missing" - does that mean that I wont get my FIAT back? Are they going to steal my fiat and pay back their creditors with it?
Are all clients going to share the loss, or is it only the bitcoins that are missing that will not be withdrawable? Or will simply all of it, even the bitcoins still there not go back to the customers because they will pay it to the creditors?

I hope someone with a good understanding of all of this stuff, can tell me what is most likely.

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C10H15N
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February 28, 2014, 04:35:33 PM
 #2

You're screwed.  No bitcoin - No fiat.  Write it all off and move on. 

Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked. -Warren Buffett
Solarstorm75
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February 28, 2014, 04:36:07 PM
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Read here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=476535.0

Good luck!
JustGotGoxed
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February 28, 2014, 04:43:08 PM
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You're screwed.  No bitcoin - No fiat.  Write it all off and move on. 

I dont see how that makes any logical sense, so please explain.
If they have the money, does it not still belong to me?
dreamspark
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February 28, 2014, 04:44:48 PM
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I dont see how that makes any logical sense, so please explain.
If they have the money, does it not still belong to me?


Ummm.. they don't have the money ...
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February 28, 2014, 04:47:42 PM
 #6

You're screwed.  No bitcoin - No fiat.  Write it all off and move on. 

I dont see how that makes any logical sense, so please explain.
If they have the money, does it not still belong to me?

One or more individuals who may or may not be affiliated with Mt. Gox have taken the bitcoin and fiat that belonged to the investors.

Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked. -Warren Buffett
JustGotGoxed
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February 28, 2014, 04:54:12 PM
 #7

You're screwed.  No bitcoin - No fiat.  Write it all off and move on. 

I dont see how that makes any logical sense, so please explain.
If they have the money, does it not still belong to me?

One or more individuals who may or may not be affiliated with Mt. Gox have taken the bitcoin and fiat that belonged to the investors.


Well if that a lot of fiat is missing why dont we hear about it? All I read is that the bitcoins have been "hacked" - theres no (?) talk of any fiat being stolen?
But heres the thing, I will admit (and yes this will make you think Im some total idiot), that I actually wired the fiat to them just a few days ago and by the time the site went dark the money had still not been credited to my account! Sorry, I know, I just didnt know enough about the state of affairs at mt gox at the time and nor do I know much about bitcoin...

So, assuming the theft of fiat (if there was any??) happened a while ago, then my money is still there, on their books.

My question to you all then is: Does mt. gox have the legal right to "confiscate" these eur and usd and use them to pay their creditors? Or otherwise do they have the right to not pay it back to me, or force me to share the loss with all the other customers as they simply dont have enough money on their books to pay back all the customers funds?

sealberrder
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February 28, 2014, 04:57:30 PM
 #8

If there will be something left for users, it will be paid out but I doubt fiat ballances has priority over bitcoin ballances, bitcoins have fiat IOU value as well

Hopefully we get at least something back
C10H15N
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February 28, 2014, 05:00:03 PM
 #9

That will be determined through the bankruptcy process.

Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked. -Warren Buffett
JustGotGoxed
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February 28, 2014, 05:00:12 PM
 #10

If there will be something left for users, it will be paid out but I doubt fiat ballances has priority over bitcoin ballances, bitcoins have fiat IOU value as well

Hopefully we get at least something back

I dont get it. If someone accepts a deposit and hold fiat currency for you, and they still have it, how the f*** can they legally deny to pay that money which is mine and which they have?Huh? I dont get it, sorry!
anu
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February 28, 2014, 05:02:12 PM
 #11

That will be determined through the bankruptcy process.

This.

We don't have information. We have only rumors. The money or the fiat may all be gone or it may all be recovered. Or you get a haircut.


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murraypaul
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February 28, 2014, 05:02:23 PM
 #12

My question to you all then is: Does mt. gox have the legal right to "confiscate" these eur and usd and use them to pay their creditors? Or otherwise do they have the right to not pay it back to me, or force me to share the loss with all the other customers as they simply dont have enough money on their books to pay back all the customers funds?

If they declare bankruptcy, yes.

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SRC: scefi1XMhq91n3oF5FrE3HqddVvvCZP9KB
murraypaul
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February 28, 2014, 05:03:30 PM
 #13

I dont get it. If someone accepts a deposit and hold fiat currency for you, and they still have it, how the f*** can they legally deny to pay that money which is mine and which they have?Huh? I dont get it, sorry!

If you were dealing with an actual bank, they couldn't do that.
But MtGox isn't a bank, isn't regulated as a bank, and you have none of the safeguards you would have had if they were a bank.

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C10H15N
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February 28, 2014, 05:04:11 PM
 #14

My question to you all then is: Does mt. gox have the legal right to "confiscate" these eur and usd and use them to pay their creditors? Or otherwise do they have the right to not pay it back to me, or force me to share the loss with all the other customers as they simply dont have enough money on their books to pay back all the customers funds?

If they declare bankruptcy, yes.

They have:  http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/us-bitcoin-mtgox-bankruptcy-idUSBREA1R0FX20140228

Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked. -Warren Buffett
BreathOfZen
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February 28, 2014, 05:07:42 PM
 #15

Actually, this brings up a good question.  We know that Gox is short of BTC, but are they missing fiat as well, and if so how do they explain it?

Aoeui Artifacts
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February 28, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
 #16

That will be determined through the bankruptcy process.

This.

We don't have information. We have only rumors. The money or the fiat may all be gone or it may all be recovered. Or you get a haircut.

This.  Despite what people say they know, MtGox has filed bankruptcy in Japanese courts.   It is in the hands of the courts now.   If we assume MtGox will be liquidated and not saved by new investors injecting capital a lot will depend on exactly how the Japanese courts decide to treat MtGox.

They may treat the USD deposits as a bailor/bailee arrangement.  In that case USD (and other fiat) holders would get all of it back.  That assumes it is all there and MtGox didn't dip into that as well to pay costs once they were insolvent (that is fraud BTW).  The BTC holders would get whatever is left over (probably bitcents on the bitcoin).

The courts however may decide to treat both BTC & USD depositors as unsecured creditors.  In that case both groups would get a partial payment based on MtGox liquidated assets.  This would be better for BTC holders (they still only get part back but it would be more) an worse for USD holders (they get some but less than the first scenario).



Peter R
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February 28, 2014, 05:09:00 PM
 #17

I believe the bitcoins were stolen a long time ago and MtGox has been operating with fractional reserves ever since.  To make good on bitcoin withdrawals when reserves got tight, they were forced to use customer fiat deposits to purchase bitcoins from other exchanges and individuals.  


WARNING: PURE SPECULATION

I'm changing my tune.  Yesterday I thought the 750,000 BTC figure was FUD to get certain Gox creditors to voluntarily accept 10 cents on the dollar for their GoxBTC.  The theory I'm leaning towards now is that the 750,000 BTC figure is true and Gox has indeed been operating as a fraction reserve.    

The theory is that sometime in 2011--probably after the crash from $30 to $10--MtGox was lax with security and a group of thieves or hackers was able to steal about 500,000 to 1,000,000 BTC.  At the time, this only represented $10 million dollars.  

To avoid discrediting bitcoin and embarrassing himself, Mark pretended that nothing happened.  He knew that BTC withdrawals were roughly balanced by BTC deposits (typical fraction reserve banking) and he hoped to slowly earn back the bitcoins through trading fees.  

Meanwhile, the thieves worked to mix their coins with non-stolen coins and slowly sold them off, thereby driving the bitcoin price eventually to $2 later in the fall of 2011.  It was this extra selling pressure that continued through the remainder of 2011 and 2012 that kept the price of bitcoin artificially depressed.

Meanwhile MtGox was buying coins whenever it had spare cash.  But as the price of bitcoin exploded in the spring of 2013 they saw their liabilities in $ terms increase tremendously.  But at this point they had to keep going, even using customer deposit money to buy coins from other exchanges or individuals.

The problems at MtGox (probably due to extreme stress of MK) got worse, and MtGox lost market share, slowly dwindling down MtGox's small supply of coins.  

MtGox purposely mixed immature coins into withdrawal transactions, and later used the malleability excuses, all to buy time to somehow get more coins and make good on withdrawals.  

But eventually all hope was lost.  Their supply of coins dwindled down to 2,000 BTC while their bitcoin liability were a huge 750,000 BTC.  

And here we are today.  If this theory is correct, there are 750,000 less bitcoins in existence than what everyone thought.  



Whether traders held fiat or BTC in their MtGox account, I expect them to receive some percentage P of the value of their holdings, where P ~= Assets / Liabilities (minus a bit for the bankruptcy costs).  P could be as small as zero.  


EDIT: I see DeathAndTaxes posted while I was writing.  I agree with his analysis completely--it is in the hands of the Japanese courts.  I am merely speculating on how I believe Gox went broke and what I expect the outcome of a bankruptcy to be.  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
JustGotGoxed
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February 28, 2014, 05:09:13 PM
 #18

Actually, this brings up a good question.  We know that Gox is short of BTC, but are they missing fiat as well, and if so how do they explain it?

Yeah, no shit. I dont understand why people act like this is not a question worth asking...!
JustGotGoxed
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February 28, 2014, 05:36:23 PM
 #19

What Im really curious about is whether the funds at mt gox will be treated as a pool or whether they will differentiate between "these usd belong to client a, those belong to client b and from client b there are 40% missing and from client a there is 10% missing".

If you deposited usd in 2011 and every dime is missing, gone poof, while I deposited the same amount just a few days ago and every cent is there - should I get 50% of the total and you the other half or should I get all of it and you nada?
Keyser Soze
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February 28, 2014, 06:23:51 PM
 #20

What Im really curious about is whether the funds at mt gox will be treated as a pool or whether they will differentiate between "these usd belong to client a, those belong to client b and from client b there are 40% missing and from client a there is 10% missing".

If you deposited usd in 2011 and every dime is missing, gone poof, while I deposited the same amount just a few days ago and every cent is there - should I get 50% of the total and you the other half or should I get all of it and you nada?
Your deposit would be equal to the person who had the balance since 2011. In the event of liquidation, you each should get the same percentage of your balance when it shut down.
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