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Author Topic: What if you bought some of those stolen Mt Gox Bitcoins?  (Read 8852 times)
protokol
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March 01, 2014, 12:17:52 PM
 #21

The stolen coins would be sold all over the world and it would be very difficult to trace down that where have his coins gone. it's not possible to get the stolen coins back.

Technically ignorant people should STFU. The chain of ownership is in the blockchain. This has already been debated. Go read the links I provided to the other thread on this same topic.

No you should shut the fuck up, I think your technical intelligence is clouding your view.

What you are basically saying, if I'm not mistaken, is that eventually every single bitcoin which has been spent at some point, will be significantly tainted, and so would be tracked down by LE and confiscated.

That is ridiculous, can you imagine how much money this would cost, and how much of a drain it would be on government services? They would need to first get warrants for every single name/postal address (This could easily be over 1m addresses), which is doubtful. Then they would need to send search teams round to everyone's house etc, it's just not feasible.

I accept that if Bitcoin really does take off, and the market cap gets to 10/100/1000x what it is currently, then the cost of such an operation could possibly make more sense, i.e. a $50bn operation to take down a $50tr market. But I think there would be cheaper/easier ways to destroy Bitcoin, I mean a 51% attack would probably be possible in the next couple of years, for less money than what this bitcoin confiscating operation would cost...

Guess I'll make that my sig, all the cool kids have one...
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FelixOliver
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March 01, 2014, 12:27:10 PM
 #22

Cash = legal tender.

Gold != legal tender

Gold can be confiscated if you buy it and it was stolen property.

Can't you read my prior post, or are you fucking blind?

Legal tender is given this protection, because the government provides consumer protection against theft, e.g. FDIC insurance, tracking down serial numbers on bills, chargebacks on credit cards, etc.. It is their racket, and so they give it is special status.

First walk to wardrobe.. Open bottom drawer... Remove thinking cap... Then Put on head.

This is simple logic, with a dash of common sense sprinkled on top for you.. enjoy...

How many bank robberies have taken place over the past 100 years? ...Store robberies... Brinks truck heists... Casino Heists... There is ALWAYS a % of this "legal-tender" you speak of that is NEVER recovered.

Why do you think that is? (I hope you have your thinking cap on properly) ...Do you think these bills are just dispensed into the realms of the unknown? Of course not, they are spent - laundered etc.

"Legal-tender" or not... If I walk to the store, buy some milk, receive change and it turns of that ONE bill was "stolen" many years, months or days before - do I have an obligation to return this bill? ...does the government have the right to seize this bill?... Of course not!
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March 01, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
 #23

This has not been settled by law.  It is one of the weaknesses of BTC.  Each USD is basically fungible.  You cant tell if your dollars have been used previously in a crime, so each one is worth the same as the next (except in rare exceptions - like where money serial numbers have been logged, or its been tainted with theft ink from a bank robbery or something)  This fungibility is backed up by centuries of court cases that have held it up.

Bitcoin has no such protection and its easily tracked to any number of crimes.  So it can be a crime to even hold certain bitcoin, and you may not know it, yet.

And now that a huge amount of Mt Gox coin has been stolen, we are all likely fencing a portion of that stolen material every time we trade.
Coins4life
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March 01, 2014, 02:43:21 PM
 #24

Nothing is going to happen. /end of thread
crazynoggin
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March 01, 2014, 07:39:08 PM
 #25

Considering how difficult it would be to trace every single Bitcoin that was stolen and to somehow then find out who owned them at this current time would be litterally impossible. Then even if people were found to be in possession of those Bitcoins, they would have to be in a country that had similar laws to the US. It just isn't financially possible to do this and it likely wont happen, its unfortunate, but stolen Bitcoins are likely gone for good unless the guy or girl who stole them has a change of heart.

Use my referral link if you want: https://primedice.com/?ref=Crazynoggin
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March 01, 2014, 07:58:45 PM
 #26

If I exhale, within one year every breath by every other human is likely to contain 14 molecules on average that were exhaled by me. Gimme my air back!
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March 01, 2014, 08:13:07 PM
 #27

This is pure FUD to discredit bitcoin, until case law or newly enacted law settle this question for good, it's just subject of speculation.  Besides, different jurisdiction can have different laws and treatment.
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March 01, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
 #28

How the heck can anyone be able to do it one bitcoin transactions are not reversible two they are anonymous.
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March 01, 2014, 09:41:07 PM
 #29

Sorry if this was discussed, but in USA if you buy stolen property and you are caught with it you have to return it to the original owner at your loss.

Now, lets say someone did steal the Mt Gox. Bitcoins, and then you bought some of them unknowingly.

If they could trace back through the blockchain that those bitcoins were indeed stolen Mt. Gox. coins, wouldn't they be able to take them back from you?

I doubt that this would happen.  The Bitcoins would not have the same address.  They are not the same Bitcoins.

Maybe Bitcoins obtained straight from a stolen source are one thing, but Bitcoins that have transferred MANY times with differing amounts over a year?  What basis would that be?  They do not do that with cash or currency. 

sure they do,

the OP is correct if you are able to track, trace, or connect the dots then you are obligated to return the money.

Jewish organizations are collecting gold, money, and many other valuable things that they were able to convince a judge, and or jury that was stolen from their people during their stay at auschwitz concentration camps.   

the blockchain provides a perfect vehicle for that connecting of the dots.

Now let's look at it in a bit of a different way, if I sold my car to you and you gave me counterfeit money which I took to the bank, who subsequently confiscated said fakes funds.  Do you think you are off the hook for my money?  Of course not, regardless of the law, but in this case the law is on my side.   You would also need to do some 'spaning to the coppers.

The very definition of money laundering is taking ill gotten gains and introducing it into legal commerce.  So if you purchased a btc for $40 when the going rate was $80 or $800 there is likely a good reason for it.    The block chain might not be able to tell us the market rate for the coin at that time but you can put together perfect valuations for what the coin was worth at the time of the transfer simply be average all of the coins sold in that block or perhaps the chain of blocks for that hour surrounding that transaction.


being uncooperative only serves to distance yourself from the good of the community, as the community matures it will tend to remember the bad guy with perfect recall

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March 01, 2014, 09:53:46 PM
 #30

so far I would have to say it's a yes and no answer. In theory yes you have tainted goods, whether its currency or not does not matter, but  no most of us would not have to give it back or have it confiscated because as time goes by and users move their btc around it will become harder and harder to track.

But if you have a wallet full of stolen/missing btc, and it is traced to you, then that would not be good......

the point.....use your btc more and more.......i know i felt stupid when Apple removed btc wallets from the APP store and I didn't have a wallet on my iphone when I could have had one....but alas there is a remedy for that and so now I have BTC (small amount in case of loss)
on my phone so I can eat.....now to find a restaurant that takes my BTC
sbfree
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March 01, 2014, 09:59:58 PM
 #31

Sorry if this was discussed, but in USA if you buy stolen property and you are caught with it you have to return it to the original owner at your loss.

Now, lets say someone did steal the Mt Gox. Bitcoins, and then you bought some of them unknowingly.

If they could trace back through the blockchain that those bitcoins were indeed stolen Mt. Gox. coins, wouldn't they be able to take them back from you?

I doubt that this would happen.  The Bitcoins would not have the same address.  They are not the same Bitcoins.

Maybe Bitcoins obtained straight from a stolen source are one thing, but Bitcoins that have transferred MANY times with differing amounts over a year?  What basis would that be?  They do not do that with cash or currency. 

sure they do,

the OP is correct if you are able to track, trace, or connect the dots then you are obligated to return the money.

Jewish organizations are collecting gold, money, and many other valuable things that they were able to convince a judge, and or jury that was stolen from their people during their stay at auschwitz concentration camps.   

the blockchain provides a perfect vehicle for that connecting of the dots.

Now let's look at it in a bit of a different way, if I sold my car to you and you gave me counterfeit money which I took to the bank, who subsequently confiscated said fakes funds.  Do you think you are off the hook for my money?  Of course not, regardless of the law, but in this case the law is on my side.   You would also need to do some 'spaning to the coppers.

The very definition of money laundering is taking ill gotten gains and introducing it into legal commerce.  So if you purchased a btc for $40 when the going rate was $80 or $800 there is likely a good reason for it.    The block chain might not be able to tell us the market rate for the coin at that time but you can put together perfect valuations for what the coin was worth at the time of the transfer simply be average all of the coins sold in that block or perhaps the chain of blocks for that hour surrounding that transaction.


being uncooperative only serves to distance yourself from the good of the community, as the community matures it will tend to remember the bad guy with perfect recall

Armis, in your example here, unfortunately how it really works is that YOU would be in JAIL, even though you TRULY would be the innocent party.....trust me on this one, I deal with this everyday of my life and know for a fact that you would be dealing with it first, long before the bad guy would have to.
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March 01, 2014, 10:00:15 PM
 #32

so far I would have to say it's a yes and no answer. In theory yes you have tainted goods, whether its currency or not does not matter, but  no most of us would not have to give it back or have it confiscated because as time goes by and users move their btc around it will become harder and harder to track.

But if you have a wallet full of stolen/missing btc, and it is traced to you, then that would not be good......

the point.....use your btc more and more.......i know i felt stupid when Apple removed btc wallets from the APP store and I didn't have a wallet on my iphone when I could have had one....but alas there is a remedy for that and so now I have BTC (small amount in case of loss)
on my phone so I can eat.....now to find a restaurant that takes my BTC

Get off that iPhone man. Bitcoin is all Android, all the time.

iPhone is good for checking up on that fiat in your Citibank account, because Apple has taken what can only be called an "Anti-Bitcoin" stance.

sbfree
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March 01, 2014, 10:04:44 PM
 #33

so far I would have to say it's a yes and no answer. In theory yes you have tainted goods, whether its currency or not does not matter, but  no most of us would not have to give it back or have it confiscated because as time goes by and users move their btc around it will become harder and harder to track.

But if you have a wallet full of stolen/missing btc, and it is traced to you, then that would not be good......

the point.....use your btc more and more.......i know i felt stupid when Apple removed btc wallets from the APP store and I didn't have a wallet on my iphone when I could have had one....but alas there is a remedy for that and so now I have BTC (small amount in case of loss)
on my phone so I can eat.....now to find a restaurant that takes my BTC

Get off that iPhone man. Bitcoin is all Android, all the time.

iPhone is good for checking up on that fiat in your Citibank account, because Apple has taken what can only be called an "Anti-Bitcoin" stance.
i know, i know, but i found a work around.....hehehehe.....and i feel good about it because i only use it for good and still get my blockchain wallet....

and Apple wants in on mobile payments is why they are now 100% against BTC.....bad idea on Apple's part.
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March 01, 2014, 10:09:10 PM
 #34

thieves, hackers, inside job person/people, and those who knowingly buy stolen anything (hint: large amounts of BTC at discount price) can be held legally liable (aka jail/prison)......there must be intent for there to be a crime.....

because most of U.S. MONEY  has traces of cocaine, marijuana and other drugs we now have to give back our money?? In theory yes, in reality NO.
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March 01, 2014, 10:42:32 PM
 #35

hmmm the gox problem.

0) figure out the exact amount of missing coins and figure out where they went
1) verify which balance include part of the stolen ones
2) Contact persons in possession by finding  actual Identities without infringing on rights....for which said agency is opening it'self wide for a class privacy lawsuit
3) prove that they actually are in my possession
4) gain access to my wallet
5) try to break my password, 215 characters
6) separate stolen from legitimate inputs
7) figure out which gox customer exactly owned those particular coins
Cool manage to distribute each and every coin to its owner

quite frankly without trying to confuse each other with technical stuff....it's a non starter.

this all assumes i am in the U.S, now, in my country the U.S has no power, no say in legal matters and definitely not on illegitimate currency. So, what if 45% of the coins are in countries that do not care what Americans do? This exercise (theoretically) would only be useful if it were a national crypto currrecy, not one that is spread over the world, and certainly not in one whose tx are irreversible.


it doesn't matter if the USA can find the money, and they can, what's important is that the cryptocurrency community find the money for the sanity and security of the cc industry especially btc. 

right now the current true value of btc is about $400, add it the hype it's about $1000, subtract the FUD it's about $600, remove the uncertainty it's down to $500. when the uncertainty turns to certain and that certainty isn't positive then the $500 goes to $300.  If you are unable to trust anyone further that you can throw them you are not going to work with very many people. 




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March 01, 2014, 10:59:01 PM
 #36

How would you propose they return coins to the victim of a theft if his coins are now distributed as taint across 24,000 other coins?  Say Sally has 1 BTC that has 0.002% taint of a coin that was stolen from Sam.  Would they correlate Sally's human identity with her 1 BTC wallet, find her somehow, and then ask for 0.002% x 1 BTC = 2000 Satoshi's back?  And then they would find the other 23,999 coins and do the same?  And what if Sally was also the victim of a theft at some prior point in time, but the Coin Rescuers hadn't found her coins yet.  She might be upset that you're taking some of her coins, when she was a victim herself.  Do you think you could add an appeal process so that victims waiting for their settlements could defer having a portion of their coins removed?

The authorities could either start as early in the chain as possible where the stolen coin is not very distributed, especially since many Bitcoin investors hold long-term. And these big fish (if Bitcoin goes to $1 million, then BTC100 is worth $100 million) would be the most lucrative to attack as well.

And at some point in the game, the G20 could declare a class action against Bitcoin in the collective public interest. They can mandate a tax on all conversions of Bitcoin to fiat to fund a new global insurance agency, which will be responsible for paying the victims.

Since this would be very popular given so many millions of people will have been stolen from (and told by the callous community of idealists that this was their learning experience and "c'est la vie" you have no recourse), this is the perfect way to begin to institute a world government, i.e. to have a demand for a global entity. You've provided a popular demand for a function that only government can do with its mandate on the use of force, which is the worst possible thing for liberty. It is so clever how this design leverages the Libertarians to help promote global governance. Makes me want to puke. And I am not going to stand idle and watch like a deer in the headlights. I am a real minanarchist-Libertarian (actually a contentionist) not like you mofos.

This is yet another in my long list of reasons to know with relative certainty that Bitcoin was planted by the powers-that-be who have for a long-time stated they intended for us to have a world government, i.e. the powerful group behind the launch of the failed League of Nations.

Bitcoin was well designed to have this outcome, because there are alternative designs for a crypto-currency which don't have this repudiation ex post facto weakness. I will be moving my investment (not from Bitcoin since I wasn't invested in it other than my effort to research it) to one of these superior altcoins soon.

You all can stay in the NWO coin. Have fun.

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March 01, 2014, 11:30:23 PM
 #37

Here is a set of directions for the G20. I suggest that Wall Street Journal reporter who contacted me, can refer to this post.

hmmm the gox problem.

0) figure out the exact amount of missing coins and figure out where they went

Government directs through public announcements for users to document their stolen BTC, perhaps at a global entity website. Previously filed cases with local authorities can be forwarded.

1) verify which balance include part of the stolen ones

This can be automated. It is all on the blockchain. Mixers (a.k.a. laundries, tumblers, CoinJoin, etc) could simply pollute all outputs on the mixer.

2) Contact persons in possession by finding  actual Identities without infringing on rights....for which said agency is opening it'self wide for a class privacy lawsuit

You have no rights any more as the $150 trillion global debt bubble collapses society into a pancake chaos, because too many people are trying to hide assets from the onerous taxation and confiscation coming. The society will try to tax and claw-back as necessary in order to meet the impossible (bankrupted) obligations of the government. Observe carefully post-2015.

The NSA & GCHQ can correlate your identity (read all my posts in that linked thread).

3) prove that they actually are in my possession

Irrelevant. You are liable because you possessed. The law doesn't require you to still be possession.

4) gain access to my wallet
5) try to break my password, 215 characters
6) separate stolen from legitimate inputs

Not necessary. Just confiscate your real assets and auction them to recover the value stolen. Or garnish your wages.

7) figure out which gox customer exactly owned those particular coins
Cool manage to distribute each and every coin to its owner

Already explained in #0 above.

this all assumes i am in the U.S, now, in my country the U.S has no power

Keep dreaming of your Alice in Wonderland fantasy. Meanwhile the G20 has been ramping up their coordination to go after all those Europeans who have been hiding assets abroad. They've got to pay that unpayable $150 trillion debt somehow.

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March 01, 2014, 11:53:09 PM
 #38

Wall Street Journal reporter who contacted me
Congrats, let us know when the article comes out.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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March 01, 2014, 11:57:31 PM
 #39

Cash = legal tender.

Gold != legal tender

Gold can be confiscated if you buy it and it was stolen property.

Can't you read my prior post, or are you fucking blind?

Legal tender is given this protection, because the government provides consumer protection against theft, e.g. FDIC insurance, tracking down serial numbers on bills, chargebacks on credit cards, etc.. It is their racket, and so they give it is special status.

First walk to wardrobe.. Open bottom drawer... Remove thinking cap... Then Put on head.

This is simple logic, with a dash of common sense sprinkled on top for you.. enjoy...

How many bank robberies have taken place over the past 100 years? ...Store robberies... Brinks truck heists... Casino Heists... There is ALWAYS a % of this "legal-tender" you speak of that is NEVER recovered.

Why do you think that is? (I hope you have your thinking cap on properly) ...Do you think these bills are just dispensed into the realms of the unknown? Of course not, they are spent - laundered etc.

"Legal-tender" or not... If I walk to the store, buy some milk, receive change and it turns of that ONE bill was "stolen" many years, months or days before - do I have an obligation to return this bill? ...does the government have the right to seize this bill?... Of course not!

It has been recovered. You pay taxes for the police, the NSA, the recent $8 trillion QE public backstop on TBTF banks, etc..

People don't keep much of their money in cash, and they feel safe in banks.

Cash doesn't have a ledger like Bitcoin does where everything is tracked precisely.

If Bitcoin will be mass adopted by grandma, then the same peace-of-mind will exist and be provided for by the financial institutions that run this world. Then they will bless Bitcoin.

And if you don't believe they are in control, then I will lend you my tinfoil hat.

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March 01, 2014, 11:59:39 PM
 #40

Wall Street Journal reporter who contacted me
Congrats, let us know when the article comes out.

I refused to be interviewed. I offered to answer questions anonymously only. I don't want to involved as public figure. I would prefer not to even be making a big noise here, but someone needs to present the other side of the argument against the collective "group think" here. I am merely trying to inform my fellow Libertarians. I hope some of you will join me to something better. The rest of you can get what you deserve.

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