Information decentralization: Bitcointalk plays a great part?

[NadiaHel]

Well, I've been reading some really interesting posts like this one:https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4907634.0

And, suddenly, I've come to realize something that was in my subconscious mind all the time I've spent here in the forum. I dedicated my life to history, to research how humanity has changed since the creation of the very first figures in the ancient caves to this very moment.
To me, Bitcointalk.org appeared in my life like a really good place to research about how humanity is approaching this new concept called "cryptocurrency",  as well as the social phenomena involved.

But, maybe, we have forgotten that decentralization - Satoshi's dream?? - is not only related to a new economic system. We all live in a world in which the access to information is really centralized. Yes, centralized by media -designed by governments-, centralized by a strong force comparable to banks. Also, information is something valuable, even in economic terms, but mostly in social terms. A place where information can exist without the interference of its "traditional owners" is, somehow, an "information-decentralized-place".

So, let's keep Bitcoin aside for a little while and let's think for a moment about how this forum has become one of the places in which information can run decentralized. Bitcoin was the first excuse, but the mere existence of Bitcoin is based on his creator's will: to decentralize the power. Information means power too. So, congrats, people and thanks. I am not an expert on Bitcoin and yet here I am. I'm here seeking for information, all kind of social information that newspapers are hiding. And here it is.

Thanks, just, thanks.
Maybe this is time to consider this place as something bigger than the initial idea of Bitcoin. Its creation is far more important than to create an economic alternative: this is creating a new way of being able of taking a look at the world and understanding others. That's precisely what decentralization means.

[1713502912]

1713502912

[vapourminer]

So, let's keep Bitcoin aside for a little while and let's think for a moment about how this forum has become one of the places in which information can run decentralized.

this forum is not decentralized. and its not meant to be, as it is privately owned. it is controlled by the owner and moderators, limiting what can be posted.

it is still one of the best "goto" forums on btc and alts at the moment, but post things contrary to what the owners and mods consider acceptable and posts will disappear.

a truly decentralized forum has yet to exist AFAIK, although it is being worked on.

[NadiaHel]

So, let's keep Bitcoin aside for a little while and let's think for a moment about how this forum has become one of the places in which information can run decentralized.

this forum is not decentralized. and its not meant to be, as it is privately owned. it is controlled by the owner and moderators, limiting what can be posted.

it is still one of the best "goto" forums on btc and alts at the moment, but post things contrary to what the owners and mods consider acceptable and posts will disappear.

a truly decentralized forum has yet to exist AFAIK, although it is being worked on.

You're right. But what I was trying to mean is just that we can access to political and social information in first hand, meaning, that we can access to the histories of the people living it just now. I think this is a kind of decentralization, due to the mere access to information. Of course, it is strongly moderated, but I haven' t seen this kind of moderation when political and personal situations are explained. I'm just glad and thankful for that. As a researcher, this is amazing to me to be entitled to know how the people are living in current situations as the Venezuelan's one.

[byteball]

So, let's keep Bitcoin aside for a little while and let's think for a moment about how this forum has become one of the places in which information can run decentralized.

this forum is not decentralized. and its not meant to be, as it is privately owned. it is controlled by the owner and moderators, limiting what can be posted.

The funny thing, about 20 of my posts in Russian disappeared while none in English.
Anyway, this forum is founded by Satoshi N and run by an elite, but this elite is not exactly the people who are
controlling the MSM and "public discourse" around there.
In some sense, it's an anti-elite, which is good for this forum. It's a bit like RT vs CNN, but unlike RT it's not owned by a huge oil&gas oligarchy,
just by some neotechnocrats who may in the future constitute a new social class.

[NadiaHel]

The funny thing, about 20 of my posts in Russian disappeared while none in English.

Really?? What were these posts about? I'm curious!!
I've read from time to time some complaints about the Russian moderator, but I just thought it was an exaggeration.

[jonemil24]

Back in my childhood days, I questioned people around me this - "If the government cares for the people, why don't they print more money, and distribute it to everyone. It could have solved poverty", and their answers are all about the economy which is hard for me to understand until now. I honestly hated the word economy, and I never really cared about economics lesson in school.

Teenage years, I met my great-grandfather, the grandfather of my dad. He's friendly, loves to talk basically about farming, and he always brag about the lands that he gave to his farmers. Then I asked him why is he giving away his land, his answer - "If only the merchants didn't came to our country, we could have been better than the communism".

Now, I'm living as a farmer in a rural area where the road is not yet concrete, two hours ride away from the national road, and I'm the only one here with electricity. My nearest neighbor is 7 km away from me, and he's an archeologist. I learned history from him somehow, then I asked him what my great-grandfather told me, he answered - "It was connected with an old song, an old oral tradition that was long forgotten by our(my country) society about the merchants.". It was basically a warning that came from different nations in three different timelines, he added. It was already written in books, but still, scholars will continue to deny it.

He basically filled my childhood question with history, and psychology(not really philosophy). This was his words about the economy;

"The first problem was language, and we somehow managed to get through it. We were one step near from becoming a whole society back in feudal times, the only problem was trust. Now, mercantilism took us all further away from achieving it. They might introduce a new order, but it will still be about the economy, and not the society."

Decentralization for me could open up a new gate to discuss the theory of everything. I'm not sure if we could reach to that level, the way people behave in this forum.

Look around every section of this forum, they only care about the value of cryptos, and how could they further enhance it. I can't blame them, our time is limited, and some of us choose what is in front of us now.

[byteball]

The funny thing, about 20 of my posts in Russian disappeared while none in English.

Really?? What were these posts about? I'm curious!!
I've read from time to time some complaints about the Russian moderator, but I just thought it was an exaggeration.

No, it's not. Other members complained to me over PM as well.
My initial conclusion was that they pursue political interests of US.
The question was, how people able to read Russian can understand them so well in such nuances.
It wasn't like they are from Yeltsin's Center in Yekaterinburg and more like from some more advanced Soros joint.
But it could be my paranoia. The answer might be much simpler.
My very first thought was "they delete all clever posts, and leave stupid ones" as is true for almost every web forum.
Web forums typically want floods of posts just to display ads, and their owners hire admins who don't want to be overshadowed by smart people.
Smart people attract other smart people, so better eliminate them from the forum while they are a tiny minority.
That's a typical policy I observed on our local little one.
But then it seemed to go deeper than that.
Also I thought maybe they are trying to prevent blocking the website domain either in Ukraine or Russia,
but seeing what kind of insulting garbage they leave undeleted, I moved on to other possible versions of reality.
Now I am not sure about their motivations.

E.g. absolutely all references to Israel were deleted without exception. However, an euphemism substituted for that word can slip through.
Only things like "I was at a sea resort there this year" (written by another user) seem to be able to get through.
P.S. Maybe I will translate a couple or half a dozen of them for Meta section or for this topic, when I have time...

[NadiaHel]

My very first thought was "they delete all clever posts, and leave stupid ones" as is true for almost every web forum.
Web forums typically want floods of posts just to display ads, and their owners hire admins who don't want to be overshadowed by smart people.
Smart people attract other smart people, so better eliminate them from the forum while they are a tiny minority.
That's a typical policy I observed on our local little one.

Obviously, I can' t talk about your local, I can' t read a single word in Russian, but as far as I've seen in both the English and The Spanish boards, I can't agree with you. I think this is quite the opposite, though. In this forum, intelligent posts are the most merited and desired. They are quite tired of reading junk staff every single day.

But then it seemed to go deeper than that.
Also I thought maybe they are trying to prevent blocking the website domain either in Ukraine or Russia,
but seeing what kind of insulting garbage they leave undeleted, I moved on to other possible versions of reality.
Now I am not sure about their motivations.

E.g. absolutely all references to Israel were deleted without exception. However, an euphemism substituted for that word can slip through.
Only things like "I was at a sea resort there this year" (written by another user) seem to be able to get through.
P.S. Maybe I will translate a couple or half a dozen of them for Meta section or for this topic, when I have time...

Probably it is just more about mod personal preferences. But it would be interesting if you will conserve in the future the post you think to be really interesting and see what happens to them. Maybe if you find a good Russian post, just save a copy in imgur or somewhere else and see if it gets deleted. Perhaps you can also build a little collection in order for us to be able to see what is going on.
When you make such a kind of accusations, the best to do is just to show some evidence, so please, keep them and, if you can translate it, it will be awesome to analyze what' s going on.

[suchmoon]

[ massive conspiracy theory ]

You're multi-posting, i.e. making multiple posts in a row in the same thread. If I had to guess that would be the reason for deleted posts. Here is an example:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1581229.msg44133852#msg44133852

That's against the rules. Use the edit button and you'll be fine. Moderators don't care about your views on Israel or whatever.

[byteball]

[ massive conspiracy theory ]

You're multi-posting, i.e. making multiple posts in a row in the same thread. If I had to guess that would be the reason for deleted posts. Here is an example:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1581229.msg44133852#msg44133852

That's against the rules. Use the edit button and you'll be fine. Moderators don't care about your views on Israel or whatever.

When doing that, I respond to different people.
There is no way in the UI to quote posts from multiple people in a single response.
I saw people doing just "quote" without author and time but that seems less convenient to read.
Posts mentioning certain topics are deleted regardless of views.
And many times they were single posts in a topic, contrary to your conjecture.

There are loads of topics in all languages consisting only of posts by the OP, just upping the topic every few days or even hours.
Alik Bahshi is one of the most devious examples.
Nobody fights that.

My very first thought was "they delete all clever posts, and leave stupid ones" as is true for almost every web forum.
Web forums typically want floods of posts just to display ads, and their owners hire admins who don't want to be overshadowed by smart people.
Smart people attract other smart people, so better eliminate them from the forum while they are a tiny minority.
That's a typical policy I observed on our local little one.

Obviously, I can't talk about your local, I can' t read a single word in Russian, but as far as I've seen in both the English and The Spanish boards, I can't agree with you. I think this is quite the opposite, though. In this forum, intelligent posts are the most merited and desired. They are quite tired of reading junk staff every single day.

First of all, by "our own local little one" I meant a different forum, located here where I am geographically and hosted by an Internet provider.
That provider is an attempt by Norilsk nickel oligarch(s) to enter our local market, searching for things they can try to penetrate, so it's peculiar, but the power dynamics of the admin, moderators and their "pets" are typical.
For this forum though you'll have to believe my word, Russian moderators leave a lot of flame and insults or pointless pictures trying to become "memes" and delete thoughtful posts (which might seem stupid to them due to their views). I understand that this might go against the policy of the whole, so I have responsibility to make this known, but currently I don't have enough time for that. I am not the only one observing that.
The English part is also full of useless only-for-signature-campaign's-sake stuff.

It seems that somebody is interested in pro-Russia/anti-Russia flame at it's maximum in the Russian part of this forum.
And not interested in rational explanations, in bringing up causes and effects of things happening in the world.
(As you know, every attempt of contradicting the Washington Consensus doing that is branded nowadays "Kremlin propaganda" and "Kremlin trolling", which
implies "common people" are not believed to be able to think by themselves, they are either "scared with lies/exaggerations of what goes on" or "brainwashed" by the powerful ones).

Many anti-Russians in the social media don't speak any language apart from Russian.
I would even say "most" - as people who speak good English do not waste their time on spreading russophobia, having better things to do.
The Russian anti-Russians pretend to be "western inside" and Europeans without ever leaving Russia.
Instead of that, they spend their lives dreaming about how they are "gone from <> for good one day" or "leave <> behind to die"
(insert hateful or derogatory variant of word Russia of your choice, Russian language is pretty rich).
This seems ridiculous to me: I could understand that behaviour in people who are already emigrees, who suffer psychologically and need
daily revalidation of their decision to emigrate; but what is the point of doing that without the emigration part?
I think this is something derived from the phenomenon of "self-hating Jew". Maybe they form a Cult in this way, a totalitarian sect.
Their perception of reality inside the Cult become more and more distorted; it's a bit similar to porn, you will not pay for simple usual stuff
once you saw the extremes. So there are "fear porn" where we scare each other with predictions of catastrophes, and "russophobic porn" where
we compete in self-hatred.

So called internationalism and cosmopolitism were invented by patriots of Israel long before the modern state of Israel was founded.
P.S. I did not do, or didn't intend to do any "accusations" right now; we are in Serious Discussion and if I were to make accusations (better say: complaints) I would post them to Meta.
Accusation is saying someone behaves against the rules. The rules of forums are usually such that allow any censorship that owners/employees/even volunteers see fit, and often even harassment of users by "seniors".

[suchmoon]

When doing that, I respond to different people.
There is no way in the UI to quote posts from multiple people in a single response.

Yes, there is: "Insert Quote".

You can also open a second reply in a different tab and copy the contents into the first reply.

I saw people doing just "quote" without author and time but that seems less convenient to read.
Posts mentioning certain topics are deleted regardless of views.
And many times they were single posts in a topic, contrary to your conjecture.

I'm trying to help you. Feel free to believe your conspiracy theories but that's not why your posts get deleted. You're violating the rules. If not multi-posting then perhaps you're simply off topic, in which case create your own thread and have at it.

There are loads of topics in all languages consisting only of posts by the OP, just upping the topic every few days or even hours.
Alik Bahshi is one of the most devious examples.
Nobody fights that.

Bumping a topic once in 24 hours (or less often) is allowed. Bumping more often than that is not allowed - report to the moderators. That's how you fight it. Nobody else is obligated to do that.

[NadiaHel]

First of all, by "our own local little one" I meant a different forum, located here where I am geographically and hosted by an Internet provider.

If that is the case then sorry, but you are going quite off-topic here... Just read the thread again: The initial statement was about how in here I can find a lot of political information and also first hand one, in a world where the media is controlling all the access to it.

For this forum though you'll have to believe my word, Russian moderators leave a lot of flame and insults or pointless pictures trying to become "memes" and delete thoughtful posts (which might seem stupid to them due to their views). I understand that this might go against the policy of the whole, so I have responsibility to make this known, but currently I don't have enough time for that. I am not the only one observing that.

I haven' t seen in this forum such a problem, at least regarding Latin American issues as an example. But maybe, as said, you can just quote or show some proof of what are you talking about.

The English part is also full of useless only-for-signature-campaign's-sake stuff.

We are in an English board now and I don't see in any of our debates "signature-campaing's-sake stuff". Of course, if you move to the ANN board do not expect too many interesting conversations.

P.S. I did not do, or didn't intend to do any "accusations" right now; we are in Serious Discussion and if I were to make accusations (better say: complaints) I would post them to Meta.
Accusation is saying someone behaves against the rules. The rules of forums are usually such that allow any censorship that owners/employees/even volunteers see fit, and often even harassment of users by "seniors".

I've tried hard to understand this complete quote of yours but, after a good try, I was unable, sorry. I just can see that you are somehow frustrated, but, maybe you need to show some good examples or something in order to ilustrate your idea, for it is, for now, too abstract for me to understand it, so if you have any actual accusation to do, just avoid doing it in this conversation, we are going too off-topic, or show some evidence.

I'm trying to help you. Feel free to believe your conspiracy theories but that's not why your posts get deleted. You're violating the rules. If not multi-posting then perhaps you're simply off topic, in which case create your own thread and have at it.

Maybe that' s the problem.

[byteball]

I haven' t seen in this forum such a problem, at least regarding Latin American issues as an example. But maybe, as said, you can just quote or show some proof of what are you talking about.

The English part is also full of useless only-for-signature-campaign's-sake stuff.

We are in an English board now and I don't see in any of our debates "signature-campaing's-sake stuff". Of course, if you move to the ANN board do not expect too many interesting conversations.

We are in Serious Discussion.
Shitposting is disincentivized here by removing SD posts from stats, that shitposters are after, and by not displaying their signatures. In Ivory Tower, that is done even more completely, by forum design.
This helps the information flow.

I'm trying to help you. Feel free to believe your conspiracy theories but that's not why your posts get deleted. You're violating the rules. If not multi-posting then perhaps you're simply off topic, in which case create your own thread and have at it.

Maybe that's the problem.

OK, the problem then is that rules are implemented in such a way that leaves a lot of garbage (hate speech, insulting pictures, stupid repetitive and uninventive insults) on the boards and takes some good stuff off. That's what my frustration was about.
Specifically, "off-topic" is assigned to some good posts while pointless/insulting (written for the sole purpose to make an insult) ones are not considered off-topic.

My objection to suchmoon regarding "multi-posting" is this: why moderators have to remove multi-posts manually, sometimes after considerable delay (days or weeks later)?
Wouldn't it be better to prevent programmatically, to save their valuable time?

Censorship, you asked for example. Here is a very fresh one.
Topic about History of Crimea (where there was a lot of useful information, by 3 or more users, but too many references to Hebrew and judaism) was deleted because of "trolling and duplication".
Trolling was done by exactly one user (and everyone ignored him) who trolls in every Politics topic.
Duplication rule is applied selectively, as there are still two topics about Crimea:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=756166.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=521469.0

Applying some rules sometimes can be good cover up for censorship, cannot it?

Again, here is example (not verbatim, obviously, the essence of it) of recent trolling that wasn't deleted and unlikely will be, despite complaints:

Troll: Anatoly Shariy is a homosexual and sponsored by Kremlin. How can you believe him?
Me: How his orientation prevents me from laughing at his media commentary?
Troll: He's pedophile.

Fair enough. Every Ukrainian that goes against junta is pedophile. Those who do not jump, are from Moscow.

[suchmoon]

My objection to suchmoon regarding "multi-posting" is this: why moderators have to remove multi-posts manually, sometimes after considerable delay (days or weeks later)?
Wouldn't it be better to prevent programmatically, to save their valuable time?

Objection to me? I'm not a moderator or an admin. Raise the issue in Meta if you feel it's important. I report multi-posts when I see them, takes only a couple of seconds. There are far more important "programatic" changes that this forum needs but that's a different story.

Censorship, you asked for example. Here is a very fresh one.
Topic about History of Crimea (where there was a lot of useful information, by 3 or more users, but too many references to Hebrew and judaism) was deleted because of "trolling and duplication".
Trolling was done by exactly one user (and everyone ignored him) who trolls in every Politics topic.
Duplication rule is applied selectively, as there are still two topics about Crimea:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=756166.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=521469.0

Then post what you want to post about Crimea in those two remaining topics. I'm getting a feeling that the problem is not censorship but your intent to derail threads with your bizarre conspiracy theories, like you're doing here, and your refusal to follow simple rules. This forum is libertarian to a fault, you can go to the Off Topic board and create a thread titled "byteball's crazy-ass conspiracies" and live there. There's a dude claiming the Earth is flat and he has a 600-page thread.

Applying some rules sometimes can be good cover up for censorship, cannot it?

Again, here is example (not verbatim, obviously, the essence of it) of recent trolling that wasn't deleted and unlikely will be, despite complaints:

Troll: Anatoly Shariy is a homosexual and sponsored by Kremlin. How can you believe him?
Me: How his orientation prevents me from laughing at his media commentary?
Troll: He's pedophile.

Fair enough. Every Ukrainian that goes against junta is pedophile. Those who do not jump, are from Moscow.

Ok, so you disagree with some Ukrainians. Grow a pair. This has nothing to do with a Bitcoin forum.

[NadiaHel]

When I wrote the thread, I was thinking about how amazing is to see some nice conversations in here and to be able to reach some first-hand information made by some people. The post I use as a reference is an amazing one.
Now, as usual, the conversation is turning into some personal issues and complaints.
The topic was about seeing the good stuff in here, for we spend a lot of time just complaining about what is wrong.
Also, I was speaking about how the initial idea of Bitcoin as a decentralized way of changing the economy can also be applied to the news, so we can get access a decentralized information.

Now, this is going absolutely off-topic, and turning, as usual, in another personal-complains post. So, if you have something to complain of, just do it in the correct section.

I will lock this thread now, for it is becoming kind of annoying and adding nothing to the initial topic.