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Author Topic: Libertarians Are Sociopaths  (Read 11344 times)
rainingbitcoins
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October 19, 2011, 04:01:04 AM
 #1

I think part of the reason why people focus on Atlas is because it's easier than arguing against libertarians that are a lot more knowledgeable and patient.

Atlas is a hilarious sociopath. You're just a regular one. And I've spent a ton of moments I'll never get back arguing with you anyway.




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October 19, 2011, 08:29:28 PM
 #2

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NghtRppr
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October 19, 2011, 11:06:28 PM
 #3

Atlas is a hilarious sociopath. You're just a regular one.

Apparently, your definition of a "sociopath" is someone that wants all human interactions to be voluntary and believes that violence is only justified in defense of person or property.

I guess we have very different definitions.
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October 19, 2011, 11:16:40 PM
 #4

I think part of the reason why people focus on Atlas is because it's easier than arguing against libertarians that are a lot more knowledgeable and patient.

Atlas is a hilarious sociopath. You're just a regular one. And I've spent a ton of moments I'll never get back arguing with you anyway.

By definition, as sociopath is a person without a conscience who happens to be very good at hiding that fact.  Atlas is terrible at faking social agreement with statists.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
rainingbitcoins
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October 20, 2011, 04:06:05 AM
 #5

Atlas is a hilarious sociopath. You're just a regular one.

Apparently, your definition of a "sociopath" is someone that wants all human interactions to be voluntary and believes that violence is only justified in defense of person or property.

I guess we have very different definitions.

No, my definition of sociopath is someone who pretends he believes simplistic bullshit like that because running around saying "greed is good, I promise!" makes people realize just how shitty you are.

Also, gotta love that highly variable definition of "voluntary" where having a choice between 50 minimum wage jobs (or even jobs that pay less than minimum wage) is still technically a choice, so it's totally voluntary. Same deal with selling yourself into voluntary slavery, which a lot of you guys also support. Hey, you had a choice, right? You could have laid down and died. Free market, bitches. Slavery is freedom and taxes are slavery.




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October 20, 2011, 01:09:34 PM
 #6

No, my definition of sociopath is someone who pretends he believes simplistic bullshit like that because running around saying "greed is good, I promise!" makes people realize just how shitty you are.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellow-citizens." -Adam Smith

Also, gotta love that highly variable definition of "voluntary" where having a choice between 50 minimum wage jobs (or even jobs that pay less than minimum wage) is still technically a choice, so it's totally voluntary.

Nobody owes you a living. If you don't want to work then you can be a beggar and depend on charity. I'll buy you a sandwich. I regularly give to the poor out of empathy. Though, if the only job you can get is a low-wage job, maybe it's your own fault? Perhaps you should have learned something valuable?

Same deal with selling yourself into voluntary slavery, which a lot of you guys also support. Hey, you had a choice, right? You could have laid down and died. Free market, bitches. Slavery is freedom and taxes are slavery.

If you own something, you can sell it. If you can't sell it, you don't truly own it. Why do you think you can tell other people what they can and can't do with their own bodies?
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October 20, 2011, 01:35:14 PM
 #7

No, my definition of sociopath is someone who pretends he believes simplistic bullshit like that because running around saying "greed is good, I promise!" makes people realize just how shitty you are.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellow-citizens." -Adam Smith

"The subjects of every state ought to contribute toward the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state ....[As Henry Home (Lord Kames) has written, a goal of taxation should be to] 'remedy inequality of riches as much as possible, by relieving the poor and burdening the rich.'"

- Adam Smith

And

"It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."
- Adam Smith
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rainingbitcoins
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October 20, 2011, 01:48:18 PM
 #8

No, my definition of sociopath is someone who pretends he believes simplistic bullshit like that because running around saying "greed is good, I promise!" makes people realize just how shitty you are.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellow-citizens." -Adam Smith

"Now my friends, I am opposed to the system of society in which we live today, not because I lack the natural equipment to do for myself, but because I am not satisfied to make myself comfortable knowing that there are thousands of my fellow men who suffer for the barest necessities of life. We were taught under the old ethic that man's business on this earth was to look out for himself. That was the ethic of the jungle; the ethic of the wild beast. Take care of yourself, no matter what may become of your fellow man. Thousands of years ago the question was asked: "Am I my brother's keeper?" That question has never yet been answered in a way that is satisfactory to civilized society.

Yes, I am my brother's keeper. I am under a moral obligation to him that is inspired, not by any maudlin sentimentality, but by the higher duty I owe to myself. What would you think of me if I were capable of seating myself at a table and gorging myself with food and saw about me the children of my fellow beings starving to death?"

--Eugene Debs

Quote
Though, if the only job you can get is a low-wage job, maybe it's your own fault? Perhaps you should have learned something valuable?

I'll go tell this some kid in the ghetto whose parents didn't parent and whose schools didn't teach just so I can let him know it's his fault that the rest of his life will suck, too.

A sociopath doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself. And that's exactly the stated philosophy of the libertarian. I'd be way less offended if they all just admitted they were selfish pricks, but to pretend it's all about freedom and choice makes it so much worse. It's the worst kind of pseudo-intellectual bullshit that will let you justify any horrible thing as long as it's "voluntary". Every legitimate political scientist and philosopher can see it for the horror show it is, so it basically only appeals to people who think so much of themselves that they're sure they know better than any expert.  Kind of... well, like a sociopath.




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MoonShadow
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October 20, 2011, 06:39:56 PM
 #9

Atlas is a hilarious sociopath. You're just a regular one.

Apparently, your definition of a "sociopath" is someone that wants all human interactions to be voluntary and believes that violence is only justified in defense of person or property.

I guess we have very different definitions.

No, my definition of sociopath is someone who pretends he believes simplistic bullshit like that because running around saying "greed is good, I promise!" makes people realize just how shitty you are.

Simplistic?  You don't understand libertarian principles.  They are simple only taken out of context, taken together they are incrediblely complex.  Which is often why I find that many people cannot wrap their heads around them.  I've never met an uneducated lib.  Ever.  I've met plenty of Dems and Repubs that are only so because they were raised that way.  I also don't think I've ever met a lib that was raised as a lib, either; so I guess that could mean many things.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 01:03:25 AM
 #10

Yes, I am my brother's keeper. I am under a moral obligation to him that is inspired, not by any maudlin sentimentality, but by the higher duty I owe to myself. What would you think of me if I were capable of seating myself at a table and gorging myself with food and saw about me the children of my fellow beings starving to death?

I agree that it would be immoral for you to gorge yourself with food while watching others starve. It would also be immoral for me to point a gun at your head and force you to stop eating and start giving food to others.

A sociopath doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself. And that's exactly the stated philosophy of the libertarian. I'd be way less offended if they all just admitted they were selfish pricks, but to pretend it's all about freedom and choice makes it so much worse.

I've already stated that I'm all for charity and would engage in it myself. Somewhere on these forums is a thread (Here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=23338.0) that I started about me giving $25 in cash and $75 (at the time) in BTC to a guy begging on a street corner. There's nothing in the principles of libertarianism that makes it incompatible with charity. What it is incompatible with is forcing others to empty their pockets to the needy at gunpoint. If you can acknowledge that distinction then we will be getting somewhere.
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October 21, 2011, 03:52:09 AM
 #11

Yes, I am my brother's keeper. I am under a moral obligation to him that is inspired, not by any maudlin sentimentality, but by the higher duty I owe to myself. What would you think of me if I were capable of seating myself at a table and gorging myself with food and saw about me the children of my fellow beings starving to death?

I agree that it would be immoral for you to gorge yourself with food while watching others starve. It would also be immoral for me to point a gun at your head and force you to stop eating and start giving food to others.

One reason I say you guys have simplistic beliefs is that you never seem to take real-world context into account. Everything voluntary is always completely voluntary, and this system cannot or would not be abused. The phrase "effectively forced" is not in your vocubulary. And the consequences of every silly policy in your minds is always the best-case utopian scenario, leaving little room for reality, or human nature, which so often turns those conclusions on their head.

If you agree with the idea that it's immoral to watch others starve, but also think it's immoral to mandate that the rich man share his food, why do you support a system that happily allows the former, but considers the latter the worst kind of theft? I mean, if I had to pick the more loathesome of those two things, I'm gonna have to go ahead and say it's the one that actually kills a man instead of the one that proves a minor inconvenience to the other man.

Quote
There's nothing in the principles of libertarianism that makes it incompatible with charity. What it is incompatible with is forcing others to empty their pockets to the needy at gunpoint. If you can acknowledge that distinction then we will be getting somewhere.

I know this, but what happens when the charity isn't enough? I'm starting to feel like a broken record around here because I've said this so many times, but charities are hurting as it is. Even with the social safety nets we do have, it still doesn't even come close to providing for every poor person. What happens when we eliminate those safety nets and then start implementing other libertarian ideas that decrease their potential donations (and increase their number of recipients), such as eliminating minimum wage? Do you just say "welp, we tried!" and let them die?  Fuck that.

You don't want to see the poor die, but you'll support policies that, based on every scrap of real-world evidence we have, ensures they do exactly that. All in the name of some twisted kind of morality that's anything but.


Quote from: MoonShadow
I've never met an uneducated lib.  Ever.

Well, see that's because you consider a teenager who sat down and read Atlas Shrugged one time to be educated. Do you have any idea how many liberals and leftists went through a libertarian phase in high school, and then gave it up once they actually learned a thing or two in college?




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October 21, 2011, 12:48:22 PM
 #12

If you agree with the idea that it's immoral to watch others starve, but also think it's immoral to mandate that the rich man share his food, why do you support a system that happily allows the former, but considers the latter the worst kind of theft? I mean, if I had to pick the more loathesome of those two things, I'm gonna have to go ahead and say it's the one that actually kills a man instead of the one that proves a minor inconvenience to the other man.

If someone else does something immoral, that's on them. If I point a gun at someone and force them to share their food, that's on me. I'm not going to do anything immoral. I can't force everyone else to be moral, nor is it my place to do so. It's not a matter of "supporting a system". For someone railing against simplicity, that's a very narrow way to look at it. I don't support starving people. I support being responsible for my own actions and not doing anything immoral, which includes stealing.

I know this, but what happens when the charity isn't enough?

Is it really not enough? Are there people starving to death in the USA because there is nobody willing to give food to them? Also, you have to consider that the current state of charity doesn't represent charity under libertarianism. When people consider charity now, they might be dissuaded because they know there is already welfare, food stamps, etc. The fact of the matter is, people want to help the needy, if we didn't, there wouldn't be any such laws in the first place. I'm not against supporting the needy, only the current implementation of it.

Well, see that's because you consider a teenager who sat down and read Atlas Shrugged one time to be educated. Do you have any idea how many liberals and leftists went through a libertarian phase in high school, and then gave it up once they actually learned a thing or two in college?

I consider generalizing things like this to be a pointless exercise. Let's stick to the issues instead of speculating on the psychology of others.
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October 21, 2011, 01:05:40 PM
 #13




Quote from: MoonShadow
I've never met an uneducated lib.  Ever.

Well, see that's because you consider a teenager who sat down and read Atlas Shrugged one time to be educated.


Ah, no.  That's not my definition of educated.

Quote

Do you have any idea how many liberals and leftists went through a libertarian phase in high school, and then gave it up once they actually learned a thing or two in college?

You're projecting now.  Do you know how many libertarians went through a liberal phase in high school?  (I don't know anyone who went through a conservative "phase" to become anything else)  As for myself, I was a dyed in the wool Green until at least 22.  I was anti-gasoline, and tried to build an electric Doran kit car in high schoo (of course, the lead acid batteries were great for the environment!)l; I was anti-nuclear, and railed against fears and threats that I didn't understand; and I was anti-corporate, because I didn't understand economics.  Now that I understand these subjects, I know that I was full of shit as a kid.  Ask yourself, why do we try to teach math to students, but not economics?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 05:41:45 PM
 #14

Quote
Is it really not enough? Are there people starving to death in the USA because there is nobody willing to give food to them? Also, you have to consider that the current state of charity doesn't represent charity under libertarianism. When people consider charity now, they might be dissuaded because they know there is already welfare, food stamps, etc. The fact of the matter is, people want to help the needy, if we didn't, there wouldn't be any such laws in the first place. I'm not against supporting the needy, only the current implementation of it.

No, it really isn't enough.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/more-americans-chinese-t-put-food-table-132752601.html

Quote
The number of Americans who lack access to basic necessities like food and health care is now higher than it was at the peak of the Great Recession, a survey released Thursday found. And in a finding that could worsen fears of U.S. decline, the share of Americans struggling to put food on the table is now three times as large as the share of the Chinese population in the same position.


The United States' Basic Index Score, a Gallup measure of access to necessities, fell to 81.4 in September--even lower than the 81.5 mark it reached in February and March, 2009. The recession officially ended in June of that year, but the halting recovery hasn't given a sustained boost to the number of Americans able to provide for themselves. The government reported last month that a record number of Americans is living in poverty.

Between September 2008 and last month, the share of Americans with access to a personal doctor plummeted from 82.5 percent to 78.3 percent. The share with health insurance fell from 85.9 percent to 82.3 percent. And the share saying they had enough money to buy food for themselves and their family dropped from 81.1 percent to 80.1 percent. Gallup's surveys are based on phone and in-person interviews.


Meanwhile, Gallup found that just 6 percent of Chinese said there were times in the past 12 months when they lacked enough money for food for themselves or their family, compared to 19 percent of Americans. Just three years ago, those results were almost reversed: 16 percent of Chinese couldn't put food on the table at times, compared to 9 percent of Americans.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/

Quote
Nearly 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance, according to a new study published online today by the American Journal of Public Health. That figure is about two and a half times higher than an estimate from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2002.


And again, your hopes that people will be so inspired by the wonderful world of libertarianism that they'll give more (kind of like the CEOs who are so inspired by magical capitalism that they'll treat their employees well) don't mean shit to a poor person. He has to eat no matter what. He can't sit around hoping your theories pan out. Combining that with your ideal sub-minimum wage work force is a prescription for disaster that only the most ideologically blinded can't see coming from a mile away.




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October 21, 2011, 10:46:38 PM
 #15

...

...Are there people starving to death in the USA because there is nobody willing to give food to them?...

...
I think there are way more of them than you expect.

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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October 21, 2011, 10:50:30 PM
 #16

...

...Are there people starving to death in the USA because there is nobody willing to give food to them?...

...
I think there are way more of them than you expect.

Yes, it's also becoming illegal in many communities to feed the homeless w/o a proper permit.  Just google 'illegal to feed homeless' and you'll see many areas in which this is in place.

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October 21, 2011, 10:58:36 PM
 #17

...

...Are there people starving to death in the USA because there is nobody willing to give food to them?...

...
I think there are way more of them than you expect.

I suspect that there's something of a cascade effect too where people aren't literally starving to death but a combination of inadequate food intake and lack of adequate preventative health care combine to produce greater negative health impacts than either factor would alone - and then those health issues have a flow on effect to a person's overall ability to function independently in society.  I know that this has been researched in the past in Australia - I'd be surprised if it hasn't also been researched in the US.

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October 22, 2011, 01:37:37 AM
 #18

Quote
Is it really not enough? Are there people starving to death in the USA because there is nobody willing to give food to them? Also, you have to consider that the current state of charity doesn't represent charity under libertarianism. When people consider charity now, they might be dissuaded because they know there is already welfare, food stamps, etc. The fact of the matter is, people want to help the needy, if we didn't, there wouldn't be any such laws in the first place. I'm not against supporting the needy, only the current implementation of it.

No, it really isn't enough.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/more-americans-chinese-t-put-food-table-132752601.html

Nowhere in that link is there any mention of people starving to death. Try again.
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October 22, 2011, 02:12:02 AM
 #19

Well, better to be a sociopath than a parasite.

Almost the entire incarcerated population of the United States would qualify as sociopaths.  So would almost all of Congress.  So I'm not sure that there would be a distinct difference between a sociopath and a parasite.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

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October 22, 2011, 02:12:52 AM
 #20

Well, better to be a sociopath than a parasite.

Fortunately, sociopaths don't often breed or if they do they abandon their children so the taxpayers take care of them.

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October 22, 2011, 02:19:53 AM
 #21

heh- throw a label on something and view it as better or worse and you are a capatalist- even viewing libertarianism as 'better' is capatalism. all boils down to not taking sides if you are to win the ultimate fight

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October 22, 2011, 02:20:15 AM
 #22

Last I checked, sociopaths tend to aggress against others for their own benefit.
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October 22, 2011, 07:07:42 AM
 #23

Almost the entire incarcerated population of the United States would qualify as sociopaths.  So would almost all of Congress.  So I'm not sure that there would be a distinct difference between a sociopath and a parasite.

I know. I'm just indulging the OP by accepting his "libertarians are sociopaths" premise.

I wasn't the OP. I just responded to a thread and the first dozen replies got cut off and some mod put me as the OP for some reason.

Quote from: bitcoin2cash
Nowhere in that link is there any mention of people starving to death. Try again.

Well as long as they're just chronically hungry, I guess that's okay and means that charities will still be flush with money once you eliminate the minimum wage on top of that.  I can't possibly see how chronic hunger could lead to starvation. As a libertarian, connections that tenuous make my head hurt.





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October 22, 2011, 11:28:21 AM
 #24

Core Beliefs of a Libertarian

Maximal personal liberty
The libertarian believes that the government that governs least, governs best. He believes in maximum personal liberty and minimum government coercion and intrusion in the everyday lives of citizens. The libertarian believes in small government, especially at the federal level, and not getting involved in foreign entanglements. He believes in personal autonomy, both social and economic.
I have also heard this useful description: A libertarian is more liberal than a Liberal on matters of personal liberty, and he is more conservative than a Conservative on matters of economic autonomy.


A constitutional government of, by, and for the people is necessary. Being more conservative than a Conservative on matters of economic autonomy makes them extremists. The problem with most libertards is that they want to dismantle things like publicly funded education which makes no sense to sane people. Libertarians that just want to get laid and smoke pot are one thing, but might-makes-right neocon teabaggers are just plain nuts.

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October 22, 2011, 12:42:09 PM
 #25

The problem with most libertards is that they want to dismantle things like publicly funded education which makes no sense to sane people.

Please tell us why exactly.   Education is important, sure, but I don't see why it means that it should be publicly founded.   Being able to eat is important just as well, and yet nobody would seriously consider to socialize all the food industry.
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October 22, 2011, 12:52:05 PM
 #26

The problem with most libertards is that they want to dismantle things like publicly funded education which makes no sense to sane people.

Please tell us why exactly.   Education is important, sure, but I don't see why it means that it should be publicly founded.   Being able to eat is important just as well, and yet nobody would seriously consider to socialize all the food industry.

The food you eat must be government regulated or the risk to your health and life goes way up by eating it. The airplane you fly, the car you drive, etc. must all have government regulation for safety. While I believe that education must adapt to the new information age paradigm, there still needs to be societal (i.e. governmental) regulation.

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October 22, 2011, 12:55:31 PM
 #27

The problem with most libertards is that they want to dismantle things like publicly funded education which makes no sense to sane people.

Please tell us why exactly.   Education is important, sure, but I don't see why it means that it should be publicly founded.   Being able to eat is important just as well, and yet nobody would seriously consider to socialize all the food industry.

The food you eat must be government regulated or the risk to your health and life goes way up by eating it. The airplane you fly, the car you drive, etc. must all have government regulation for safety. While I believe that education must adapt to the new information age paradigm, there still needs to be societal (i.e. governmental) regulation.

Public education is not just regulated, it is organized and founded with taxation.

The regulated industries you are talking about are NOT publicly founded.  Most of them are privately owned.  They offer a service and customers pay for it.   At most, State intervenes to impose some safety and quality standards.   Why should it be different with education ??!!!  

Moreover, I don't see why we need state to organize a regulation system.  This could be done by a private company.  Or better:  by several, competing regulation companies.   IEEE, for instance, was initiated by a pool of engineers working in the electronics sector.  I don't think they were State employees.
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October 22, 2011, 01:09:03 PM
 #28

The problem with most libertards is that they want to dismantle things like publicly funded education which makes no sense to sane people.

Please tell us why exactly.   Education is important, sure, but I don't see why it means that it should be publicly founded.   Being able to eat is important just as well, and yet nobody would seriously consider to socialize all the food industry.

The food you eat must be government regulated or the risk to your health and life goes way up by eating it. The airplane you fly, the car you drive, etc. must all have government regulation for safety. While I believe that education must adapt to the new information age paradigm, there still needs to be societal (i.e. governmental) regulation.

Public education is not just regulated, it is organized and founded with taxation.

The regulated industries you are talking about are NOT publicly founded.  Most of them are privately owned.  They offer a service and customers pay for it.   At most, State intervenes to impose some safety and quality standards.   Why should it be different with education ??!!!   

Moreover, I don't see why we need state to organize a regulation system.  This could be done by a private company.  Or better:  by several, competing regulation companies.

Yeah, I sometimes get a little US centric when talking about politics. In the USA we have the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to regulate food, Department of Transportation (DOT) to regulate roadways and vehicles, and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to regulate the skyways, and of course many more.

Private companies can self regulate, but they will factor in acceptable death rates to how much it would cost to change their business practices. If the rates of deaths get too high, there is still no accountability and they will simply reorganize and outsource for plausible deniability. All corporations are in a race-to-the-bottom line. There needs to be an independent authority with regulatory powers to maintain safety.

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October 22, 2011, 01:19:02 PM
 #29

Private companies can self regulate, but they will factor in acceptable death rates to how much it would cost to change their business practices. If the rates of deaths get too high, there is still no accountability and they will simply reorganize and outsource for plausible deniability. All corporations are in a race-to-the-bottom line. There needs to be an independent authority with regulatory powers to maintain safety.

Sure, but this is even more a reason to privatize education.   If you accept that private companies are in charge of your safety in a plane, why wouldn't you accept that private companies are in charge of your education?

A bad education is a terrible thing in life, but unlike flight transportation, it won't kill you.   Also, as you said yourself, most libertarians are poorly educated.  So I guess they are a living proof that public education is terrible anyway.    I don't see why private education could not do better.
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October 22, 2011, 01:22:39 PM
 #30

The problem with most libertards is that they want to dismantle things like publicly funded education which makes no sense to sane people.

Please tell us why exactly.   Education is important, sure, but I don't see why it means that it should be publicly founded.   Being able to eat is important just as well, and yet nobody would seriously consider to socialize all the food industry.

The food you eat must be government regulated or the risk to your health and life goes way up by eating it. The airplane you fly, the car you drive, etc. must all have government regulation for safety. While I believe that education must adapt to the new information age paradigm, there still needs to be societal (i.e. governmental) regulation.

Public education is not just regulated, it is organized and founded with taxation.

The regulated industries you are talking about are NOT publicly founded.  Most of them are privately owned.  They offer a service and customers pay for it.   At most, State intervenes to impose some safety and quality standards.   Why should it be different with education ??!!!  

You know what else those mentioned private industries have in common? The poor can't afford to use them. We already have very nearly the worst social mobility in the First World, and you guys are chomping at the bit to make it even worse.

Here, I'll modify my previous statement: libertarians are either sociopaths (since every damn one of their policies makes things a thousand times worse for the poor) or too dumb to understand basic cause and effect.




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October 22, 2011, 01:37:08 PM
 #31


Sure, but this is even more a reason to privatize education.   If you accept that private companies are in charge of your safety in a plane, why wouldn't you accept that private companies are in charge of your education?

I am not accepting private companies in charge of safety. Many airlines have closed because of safety failures and they are all racing to the bottom.

A bad education is a terrible thing in life, but unlike flight transportation, it won't kill you.   Also, as you said yourself, most libertarians are poorly educated.  So I guess they are a living proof that public education is terrible anyway.    I don't see why private education could not do better.

Sociopaths (libertarians) are not necessarily the result of the education system. There are systemic problems in all regulatory areas that privatization has infected. Mental health and healthcare in general are also to blame, among others.

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October 22, 2011, 01:39:27 PM
 #32

You know what else those mentioned private industries have in common? The poor can't afford to use them. We already have very nearly the worst social mobility in the First World, and you guys are chomping at the bit to make it even worse.

I don't see why poor people could not afford some education.  Surely not as good an education as the one a child of a rich family could afford, but still they could get some.  And they would certainly be some good people who would be happy to provide free education, just by generosity.


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October 22, 2011, 01:48:24 PM
 #33

And they would certainly be some good people who would be happy to provide free education, just by generosity.

Wishful thinking.

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October 22, 2011, 01:58:37 PM
 #34

I am not accepting private companies in charge of safety. Many airlines have closed because of safety failures and they are all racing to the bottom.

Nobody forces you to follow them to the bottom.  You don't have to get in a plane if you think it is not safe.

On the contrary, you must pay for public education via taxation, even if you think public schools are mass indoctrination camps or just places where you put your kids to be watched for, during your working day.

Quote
Sociopaths (libertarians) are not necessarily the result of the education system. There are systemic problems in all regulatory areas that privatization has infected. Mental health and healthcare in general are also to blame, among others.

Well, this is very much an assertion with no proof whatsoever.  The opposite could sound just as true.

And they would certainly be some good people who would be happy to provide free education, just by generosity.

Wishful thinking.

Not so much.  Consider this internet dialog.  It's not just a fight to get the opposite camp rally the other's side.   It is also, whether it is conscious or unconscious, a way for us to try to "educate" other people and bring them to a more reasonable point of view.   And we do that for free.  So I think there is a big tendency in human nature to share knowledge amongst one another.  I like to see things this way anyway.   Consider also projects such as wikipedia.

I sincerely believe that in a free and globally wealthy society, most of the education system would be voluntary based, and free as in 'free beer'.

But call that wishfull thinking if you want.  I'm OK with that.  At least you'd have proven that libertarians are not as cynical as you seem to think so.

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October 22, 2011, 02:30:59 PM
 #35

Well as long as they're just chronically hungry, I guess that's okay and means that charities will still be flush with money once you eliminate the minimum wage on top of that.  I can't possibly see how chronic hunger could lead to starvation. As a libertarian, connections that tenuous make my head hurt.

Minimum wage doesn't do anything but force people to be unemployed that can't provide labor worth around $7 dollars an hour. If you can provide labor worth $5 an hour but employers have to give you an extra $2 which represents a loss, they aren't going to hire you. Then on welfare you go where other people are forced to support you entirely instead of allowing charity to provide only that extra little bit you are missing. There are so many reasons why the current system hurts the needy, not allowing them to easily start a business without jumping through all kinds of legal hoops, allowing the people with the most resources to make laws (unions support the minimum wage yet they don't come anywhere close to needing it, hmm I wonder why), etc. I'm not going to sit here and give you an entire economics lesson. All I want you to take away from this is that we aren't that different. We both want people to be free, want them to succeed, want them to be happy, we just differ on how to go about it. So when you call people sociopaths just because they *gasp* think differently, it doesn't really help at all.
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October 22, 2011, 02:35:12 PM
 #36

So when you call people sociopaths just because they *gasp* think differently, it doesn't really help at all.

Actually, they can be pointed out with a brain scan with a very high reliability. No opinion necessary.

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October 22, 2011, 02:35:53 PM
 #37

Well as long as they're just chronically hungry, I guess that's okay and means that charities will still be flush with money once you eliminate the minimum wage on top of that.  I can't possibly see how chronic hunger could lead to starvation. As a libertarian, connections that tenuous make my head hurt.

Minimum wage doesn't do anything but force people to be unemployed that can't provide labor worth around $7 dollars an hour. If you can provide labor worth $5 an hour but employers have to give you an extra $2 which represents a loss, they aren't going to hire you. Then on welfare you go where other people are forced to support you entirely instead of allowing charity to provide only that extra little bit you are missing. There are so many reasons why the current system hurts the needy, not allowing them to easily start a business without jumping through all kinds of legal hoops, allowing the people with the most resources to make laws (unions support the minimum wage yet they don't come anywhere close to needing it, hmm I wonder why), etc. I'm not going to sit here and give you an entire economics lesson. All I want you to take away from this is that we aren't that different. We both want people to be free, want them to succeed, want them to be happy, we just differ on how to go about it. So when you call people sociopaths just because they *gasp* think differently, it doesn't really help at all.

Unions indeed are a tricky one - I'm still not sure how I feel about them.  On one hand, I can see them being needed inorder to prevent it's members from being kicked around.  On the other hand, it can result in things like I saw in Detroit, where union workers are making $30/hr, 60hr weeks (so 20hrs is at 45/hr), for pulling levers and pushing buttons.  And that's on top of benefits.

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October 22, 2011, 02:45:28 PM
 #38

Unions have never been the problem. The government provisions, monopolies and subsidies they are given are the problem.
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October 22, 2011, 03:06:29 PM
 #39

Well as long as they're just chronically hungry, I guess that's okay and means that charities will still be flush with money once you eliminate the minimum wage on top of that.  I can't possibly see how chronic hunger could lead to starvation. As a libertarian, connections that tenuous make my head hurt.

Minimum wage doesn't do anything but force people to be unemployed that can't provide labor worth around $7 dollars an hour. If you can provide labor worth $5 an hour but employers have to give you an extra $2 which represents a loss, they aren't going to hire you. Then on welfare you go where other people are forced to support you entirely instead of allowing charity to provide only that extra little bit you are missing. There are so many reasons why the current system hurts the needy, not allowing them to easily start a business without jumping through all kinds of legal hoops, allowing the people with the most resources to make laws (unions support the minimum wage yet they don't come anywhere close to needing it, hmm I wonder why), etc. I'm not going to sit here and give you an entire economics lesson. All I want you to take away from this is that we aren't that different. We both want people to be free, want them to succeed, want them to be happy, we just differ on how to go about it. So when you call people sociopaths just because they *gasp* think differently, it doesn't really help at all.

Unions indeed are a tricky one - I'm still not sure how I feel about them.  On one hand, I can see them being needed inorder to prevent it's members from being kicked around.  On the other hand, it can result in things like I saw in Detroit, where union workers are making $30/hr, 60hr weeks (so 20hrs is at 45/hr), for pulling levers and pushing buttons.  And that's on top of benefits.

At it's core, a union is just a group of people getting together to act collectively in mutual self interest.  No more moral or immoral than a corporation or political action committee.  I've been a member of two different unions in my life.  Unions aren't the problem, per se; it's when collective bargining is permitted for government workers.  It the private sector, government operates as the arbitrator between unions and businesses.  When the employer is the taxpayer, and the unions are able to contribute to the election of people who negotiate on the behalf of the taxpayer, the balance of powers are all screwed up.  Can't really blame unions for taking advantage of the situation, it's what they exist for.  But we shouldn't allow it to happen to start with, any more than we should allow corporations to donate unlimited amounts of campaign support to those who might regulate them or decide on their government contract bids.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

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October 22, 2011, 03:37:13 PM
 #40

I'm a liberal. I'm also a sociopath. Not caring for people doesn't mean that they shouldn't be cared for, i recognise intelectualy that people need to eat. I don't want to feed them. I pay taxes so people who care can make it their job to feed (or cure, or educate) these people.

Based on your contradictory statements, you seem to be more confused than anything. Just keep paying taxes and let the grownups take care of the sick, young, and hungry.

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October 22, 2011, 05:32:22 PM
 #41

I think part of the reason why people focus on Atlas is because it's easier than arguing against libertarians that are a lot more knowledgeable and patient.

Atlas is a hilarious sociopath. You're just a regular one. And I've spent a ton of moments I'll never get back arguing with you anyway.
So by this definition, you are a communist? Ok...
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October 22, 2011, 05:37:13 PM
 #42

You know what else those mentioned private industries have in common? The poor can't afford to use them. We already have very nearly the worst social mobility in the First World, and you guys are chomping at the bit to make it even worse.

I don't see why poor people could not afford some education.  Surely not as good an education as the one a child of a rich family could afford, but still they could get some.  And they would certainly be some good people who would be happy to provide free education, just by generosity.

So we've got the charities that can't adequately feed people now paying out for the lack of social safety nets, sub-minimum wage earners, health care for tens of millions of people who can't afford insurance, and education for tens of millions, as well.

This is what you call a (redacted) fairy tale.




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October 22, 2011, 05:43:29 PM
 #43

No charity, no person can keep up with a government destroying wealth through inefficiency and inflating the cost-of-living. Less than 10% of money going into services reaches the people.

There is nothing wrong with charity.
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October 22, 2011, 05:44:58 PM
 #44

Are you Atlas?




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October 22, 2011, 06:16:44 PM
 #45

No charity, no person can keep up with a government destroying wealth through inefficiency and inflating the cost-of-living. Less than 10% of money going into services reaches the people.
In my country, 25% of the working force is in the government institutions (aka, not producing any economic value but they are being paid from taxes made on the private sector (2% income, 16% profits, 24% VAT)). Sup?
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October 22, 2011, 06:24:04 PM
 #46

No charity, no person can keep up with a government destroying wealth through inefficiency and inflating the cost-of-living. Less than 10% of money going into services reaches the people.
24% VAT

I hope you like your overpriced cost-of-living.
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October 22, 2011, 06:25:42 PM
 #47

Answer my question, Atlas.

e: based on my interactions with you in that other thread, there is no way in hell you're not Atlas




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October 22, 2011, 07:15:38 PM
 #48

Unions have never been the problem. The government provisions, monopolies and subsidies they are given are the problem.
Somtimes they are; somtimes unions do what is best for the unions even when that isn't what is best for the workers; in that aspect, they quite similar to the way many governments (and subpartitions of them) behave towards their people.

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October 22, 2011, 07:16:15 PM
 #49

...

I wasn't the OP. I just responded to a thread and the first dozen replies got cut off and some mod put me as the OP for some reason.

...

If you're the author of the first post in the thread now, you should be able to edit the thread tittle, perhaps prepending "Re:" to the title would be enough to make it clear it wasn't you that started this.

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October 22, 2011, 08:40:53 PM
 #50

Answer my question, Atlas.

e: based on my interactions with you in that other thread, there is no way in hell you're not Atlas

I doubt it.  Atlas was a hardcore objectivist.  Ayn Rand's root premise regarding charity was that it always did more harm than good, and that (as an atheist) she believed that the Judeo-Christian tradition of aiding the poor was BS.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 22, 2011, 08:45:06 PM
 #51

Ayn Rand's root premise regarding charity was that it always did more harm than good...

I'm not an objectivist but I don't think that's accurate.

"There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them." -Ayn Rand
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October 22, 2011, 09:01:52 PM
 #52

Ayn Rand's root premise regarding charity was that it always did more harm than good...

I'm not an objectivist but I don't think that's accurate.

"There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them." -Ayn Rand

I believe that she softened later in life, and this quote came from this period.  If you have ever read her magnum opus, Atlas Shrugged and recognized it for what it really is, a philosophy book wrapped up as a work of fiction, it's pretty obvious that she didn't feel this way when the book was written.  The main character has many famous lines, not the least of which, involves John Galt telling another character to lead a moral life by never letting the word "give" cross her lips.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 22, 2011, 09:27:52 PM
 #53

I believe that she softened later in life, and this quote came from this period.

No, the book and the quote were both published in her 50's.
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October 22, 2011, 09:33:49 PM
 #54

Most people don't even bother to understand Rand's position once they begin to argue against it. If she were alive today, she wouldn't even be bothered with the word used against her because it would have no backing.
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October 22, 2011, 09:44:51 PM
 #55

who is atlas ? and can i know him ?

atlas is the screenname of a teenaged forum member, who recently changed his screenname due to gaining a rep that was attracting constant attacks from a subset of the forum membership.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 23, 2011, 12:13:49 AM
 #56

Ron Swanson.
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October 23, 2011, 12:21:46 AM
 #57

There's nothing in the principles of libertarianism that makes it incompatible with charity. What it is incompatible with is forcing others to empty their pockets to the needy at gunpoint. If you can acknowledge that distinction then we will be getting somewhere.

If ONLY it went to the needy i wouldn't feel so bad about the system.  But it gets gobbled up mostly by underworked bureaucrats with lavish pay and pension, and overpriced or unnecessary crony contractors.  Don't get me started on the various wars too!  That is what we have more and more in the US.  IF it were only the needy 'feeding' off the rest, and i mean truly needy, taxes would probably only need to be a few percent.   Again if only the gov't people really were being honest and efficient, but they can't as its not the nature of the position they have in society.

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October 23, 2011, 08:25:41 AM
 #58

There's nothing in the principles of libertarianism that makes it incompatible with charity. What it is incompatible with is forcing others to empty their pockets to the needy at gunpoint. If you can acknowledge that distinction then we will be getting somewhere.

If ONLY it went to the needy i wouldn't feel so bad about the system.  But it gets gobbled up mostly by underworked bureaucrats with lavish pay and pension, and overpriced or unnecessary crony contractors.

+1

In France there has been a study recently, about the amount of tax money used to pay people in charge of organizing distribution of public help to homeless people.  Once we divided the total amount by the number of those homeless people, it was almost enough to pay them an hotel room.  Every night.
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October 23, 2011, 11:29:39 AM
 #59

There's nothing in the principles of libertarianism that makes it incompatible with charity. What it is incompatible with is forcing others to empty their pockets to the needy at gunpoint. If you can acknowledge that distinction then we will be getting somewhere.

If ONLY it went to the needy i wouldn't feel so bad about the system.  But it gets gobbled up mostly by underworked bureaucrats with lavish pay and pension, and overpriced or unnecessary crony contractors.

+1

In France there has been a study recently, about the amount of tax money used to pay people in charge of organizing distribution of public help to homeless people.  Once we divided the total amount by the number of those homeless people, it was almost enough to pay them an hotel room.  Every night.

Most people aren't homeless simply for a lack of quarters, there are a lot of other things wrong with them. I doubt that study. Can you cite it?

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October 23, 2011, 02:19:31 PM
 #60

There's nothing in the principles of libertarianism that makes it incompatible with charity. What it is incompatible with is forcing others to empty their pockets to the needy at gunpoint. If you can acknowledge that distinction then we will be getting somewhere.

If ONLY it went to the needy i wouldn't feel so bad about the system.  But it gets gobbled up mostly by underworked bureaucrats with lavish pay and pension, and overpriced or unnecessary crony contractors.

+1

In France there has been a study recently, about the amount of tax money used to pay people in charge of organizing distribution of public help to homeless people.  Once we divided the total amount by the number of those homeless people, it was almost enough to pay them an hotel room.  Every night.

Behold the inefficiency of government.
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October 23, 2011, 09:30:53 PM
 #61

If you have ever read her magnum opus, Atlas Shrugged and recognized it for what it really is, a philosophy book wrapped up as a work of fiction, it's pretty obvious that she didn't feel this way when the book was written.  The main character has many famous lines, not the least of which, involves John Galt telling another character to lead a moral life by never letting the word "give" cross her lips.

I read the book differently. To me, the primary thrust of what you write about the word "give", was to never allow anyone to use the concept "required to give" as a weapon against you. To use it as a weapon requires the sanction of the victim.

However, there are many examples of people making sacrifices themselves for the good of another. But none are required to make these sacrifices. They all do it willingly because to avoid the responsibility would compromise their own self interests.

To anyone who hasn't read Atlas Shrugged. Read it. It's huge but there is not a second of wasted time in it.
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October 24, 2011, 02:01:16 PM
 #62

Answer my question, Atlas.

e: based on my interactions with you in that other thread, there is no way in hell you're not Atlas

I doubt it.  Atlas was a hardcore objectivist.  Ayn Rand's root premise regarding charity was that it always did more harm than good, and that (as an atheist) she believed that the Judeo-Christian tradition of aiding the poor was BS.

Atlas has said a number of times that he doesn't follow Rand to the exclusion of all else. Also "I. Goldstein" never did answer the damn question.

Quote from: Atlas
Behold the inefficiency of government.

Except when it turns out to be terribly efficient. But in those cases you can just blame government intervention in private enterprise (no matter how much or little there happens to be) for the failures of private enterprise rather than having to face the truth.

Fucking inefficient big government. What have they ever done for humanity besides getting us to the moon and inventing the Internet?




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October 24, 2011, 03:23:18 PM
 #63

Fucking inefficient big government. What have they ever done for humanity besides getting us to the moon and inventing the Internet?

"getting us to the Moon".   You're a member of the Apolo expedition??
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October 24, 2011, 03:43:35 PM
 #64

Yes, what have they ever done for us?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

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October 24, 2011, 05:42:51 PM
 #65


Fucking inefficient big government. What have they ever done for humanity besides getting us to the moon and inventing the Internet?

The government did not invent the Internet.  At most, the Defense budget paid for it.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 24, 2011, 06:10:59 PM
 #66


Fucking inefficient big government. What have they ever done for humanity besides getting us to the moon and inventing the Internet?

The government did not invent the Internet.  At most, the Defense budget paid for it.

In order for his argument to hold any water, he'd have to additionally argue that without DARPA funding, a computer network such as the internet would not have been created.

Further, the internet didn't flourish (or indeed become known as the internet) until it was privatized.
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October 24, 2011, 06:13:12 PM
 #67

Yes, what have they ever done for us?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso


Here's what they've done for us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll
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October 24, 2011, 07:38:01 PM
 #68


Are you saying that without governments there'd be no wars? For real?

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October 24, 2011, 07:47:48 PM
 #69

Are you saying that without governments there'd be no wars? For real?

Yep. Wars are expensive and destructive. They can only be paid for through taxes. Any private entity which engaged in war would quickly lose support of its customers and go out of business. There's no incentive to do so.
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October 24, 2011, 07:51:04 PM
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I disagree. If governments were a lot smaller and more decentralized there would be fewer and less devastating wars. There would be conflict but it would be very small skirmishes.
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October 24, 2011, 07:53:42 PM
 #71

I disagree. If governments were a lot smaller and more decentralized there would be fewer and less devastating wars. There would be conflict but it would be very small skirmishes.

If big governments mean big wars, small governments mean small wars, why wouldn't no governments mean no wars?
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October 24, 2011, 07:56:44 PM
 #72

I disagree. If governments were a lot smaller and more decentralized there would be fewer and less devastating wars. There would be conflict but it would be very small skirmishes.

If big governments mean big wars, small governments mean small wars, why wouldn't no governments mean no wars?

The wars would be reduced in scope, but a fued between large family clans (hatfields and McCoys?) is still a war of sorts.  However, the scale of the conflict does matter.  The other people who live in the area are likely to intercede.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 24, 2011, 07:57:47 PM
 #73

There will always be government. Anarchy is only a decentralized society with very small governments possibly to the scale of individuals, if we are ever strong enough.
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October 24, 2011, 07:58:05 PM
 #74

Are you saying that without governments there'd be no wars? For real?

Yep. Wars are expensive and destructive. They can only be paid for through taxes. Any private entity which engaged in war would quickly lose support of its customers and go out of business. There's no incentive to do so.

So the tribal wars in Africa are ... what? Or the drug wars in South America? From what I can tell they seem to exist without government.
Or is any entity with power to rule over others a government, even a voluntarily selected entity?
 

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October 24, 2011, 08:10:12 PM
 #75

Are you saying that without governments there'd be no wars? For real?

Yep. Wars are expensive and destructive. They can only be paid for through taxes. Any private entity which engaged in war would quickly lose support of its customers and go out of business. There's no incentive to do so.

So the tribal wars in Africa are ... what? Or the drug wars in South America?
Instigated by the UN and/or larger nations.
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October 24, 2011, 08:16:14 PM
 #76

There will always be government. Anarchy is only a decentralized society with very small governments possibly to the scale of individuals, if we are ever strong enough.

So let's instead talk about the nation-state. That is really what is being discussed when we talk about government today, since that is the most prevalent kind.

War, as we know it, will cease to exist with the abolition (through knowledge of its nature) of the nation-state. It is only possible to fund such large, devastating conflicts through the use of taxation.

Agree?
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October 24, 2011, 08:17:29 PM
 #77

There will always be government. Anarchy is only a decentralized society with very small governments possibly to the scale of individuals, if we are ever strong enough.

So let's instead talk about the nation-state. That is really what is being discussed when we talk about government today, since that is the most prevalent kind.

War, as we know it, will cease to exist with the abolition (through knowledge of its nature) of the nation-state. It is only possible to fund such large, devastating conflicts through the use of taxation.

Agree?

Agreed. However, in the end, all we are doing is scaling down sovereignty. Small sovereignty equals little to no wars.
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October 24, 2011, 08:17:32 PM
 #78

So the tribal wars in Africa are ... what?

Not even in the same ball park as the wars waged by nation-states, if they can even be called wars at all.

Or the drug wars in South America?

You mean the ones caused by nation states prohibiting the production, distribution, and use of certain substances?
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October 24, 2011, 08:18:27 PM
 #79

So the tribal wars in Africa are ... what?

Not even in the same ball park as the wars waged by nation-states, if they can even be called wars at all.


Eh, the most murder occurs in African civil wars, my friend. Millions of lives. The UN rapes the remains.
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October 24, 2011, 08:20:30 PM
 #80

Eh, the most murder occurs in African civil wars my friend. Millions of lives. The UN rapes the remains.

Is that what he was referring to by "tribal wars"?

Quote
The Rwandan military and Hutu militia groups, notably the Interahamwe, systematically set out to murder all the Tutsis they could reach
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October 24, 2011, 08:21:47 PM
 #81

Eh, the most murder occurs in African civil wars my friend. Millions of lives. The UN rapes the remains.

Are those what he was referring to by "tribal wars"?
I don't know if these civil wars are tribe-based or not. I haven't look at the cultures nor the countries. I am pretty ignorant in terms of geography. As for Somalia, that's tribal for sure.
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October 24, 2011, 08:35:02 PM
 #82

So the tribal wars in Africa are ... what?

Not even in the same ball park as the wars waged by nation-states, if they can even be called wars at all.

Or the drug wars in South America?

You mean the ones caused by nation states prohibiting the production, distribution, and use of certain substances?

Have a look at what happened in Rwanda and tell me that it can't be called a war at all.
Saying it's not even in the same ball park is ignorant to the point of being offensive.
Or have a look at Darfur.

Yes, the drug wars where cartels are fighting both each other and the local government, and quite successfully too.
Not even the big bad government can fight the cartels and are now surrendering and starting to embrace legalization.
How many civilians are killed each year in drug related violence each year? I don't have the exact number, but I know it's several thousand. Each year.

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October 24, 2011, 08:37:23 PM
 #83

The cartels only have the power that they do is because of the prohibition and demand from the United States. Otherwise, it would be small gang skirmishes on a Detroit level resulting from local drug laws.
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October 24, 2011, 08:44:40 PM
 #84

Have a look at what happened in Rwanda and tell me that it can't be called a war at all.

Sure. Who committed the atrocities?

Saying it's not even in the same ball park is ignorant to the point of being offensive.

You said tribal wars. I was expecting you were talking about actual tribes, not nation-states.

Or have a look at Darfur.

You'll have to refresh me, what happened and who did it?

Not even the big bad government can fight the cartels

They can destroy the violent drug cartels in one simple way: end drug prohibition.
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October 24, 2011, 09:06:26 PM
 #85

Sure. Who committed the atrocities?

You said tribal wars. I was expecting you were talking about actual tribes, not nation-states.

You'll have to refresh me, what happened and who did it?

They can destroy the violent drug cartels in one simple way: end drug prohibition.

In Rwanda. Hutus. A tribe in war with Tutsi.

In Darfur. SLA and JEM two tribal groups vs Janjaweed militia, a collection of arabic tribes.

Destroy violent drug cartels simple? Only in a simple mind. Explain to me what you think happens if they end drug prohibition.

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October 24, 2011, 09:32:59 PM
 #86

So the tribal wars in Africa are ... what?

Not even in the same ball park as the wars waged by nation-states, if they can even be called wars at all.

Or the drug wars in South America?

You mean the ones caused by nation states prohibiting the production, distribution, and use of certain substances?

Have a look at what happened in Rwanda and tell me that it can't be called a war at all.

That's not exactly fair, is it?  That was a civil war based upon tribal differences, but one tribe had a complete lock on government, and thus is was also an ethnic cleaning by a government.  That fact gave one tribe an unacceptable force advantage over the other.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 24, 2011, 09:35:06 PM
 #87

In Rwanda. Hutus. A tribe in war with Tutsi.

I'm not really familiar with this so I'm just going to cherry pick some quotes from Wikipedia. Feel free to poke holes in my limited understanding...

Quote
It was the culmination of longstanding ethnic competition and tensions between the minority Tutsi, who had controlled power for centuries, and the majority Hutu peoples, who had come to power in the rebellion of 1959–62 and overthrown the Tutsi monarchy.

Quote
The assassination of Habyarimana in April 1994 set off a violent reaction, during which Hutu groups conducted mass killings of Tutsis (and also pro-peace Hutus, who were portrayed as "traitors" and "collaborationists"). This genocide had been planned by members of the Hutu power group known as the Akazu, many of whom occupied positions at top levels of the national government; the genocide was supported and coordinated by the national government as well as by local military and civil officials and mass media.

Can you say with a straight face that the Rwandan genocide would have occurred without nation-states?

In Darfur. SLA and JEM two tribal groups vs Janjaweed militia, a collection of arabic tribes.

You mean versus Janjaweed militia, the Sudanese Armed Forces, and the Sudanese Police Foreign Mercenaries?

Destroy violent drug cartels simple? Only in a simple mind. Explain to me what you think happens if they end drug prohibition.

If it's legal, the cartels no longer have a monopoly and will have to compete with legitimate businesses. In exactly the same way that the end of alcohol prohibition neutered (I won't say killed) the mafia.
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October 24, 2011, 11:22:12 PM
 #88

You know what else those mentioned private industries have in common? The poor can't afford to use them. We already have very nearly the worst social mobility in the First World, and you guys are chomping at the bit to make it even worse.

I don't see why poor people could not afford some education.  Surely not as good an education as the one a child of a rich family could afford, but still they could get some.  And they would certainly be some good people who would be happy to provide free education, just by generosity.




Wow....just...wow. What hell did you crawl out of?
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October 24, 2011, 11:23:44 PM
 #89

Wow....just...wow. What hell did you crawl out of?

Your incredulity rebuts itself. You are obviously happy to provide education to the poor, thus you and the others like you, would be happy to provide education to the poor in a stateless society. You would do it without the bureaucratic overhead of a state.
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October 24, 2011, 11:26:44 PM
 #90

Wow....just...wow. What hell did you crawl out of?

Your incredulity rebuts itself. You are obviously happy to provide education to the poor, thus you and the others like you, would be happy to provide education to the poor in a stateless society.

I am going to be completely honest here; I have no fucking clue what you are trying to say with the post quoted above.
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October 24, 2011, 11:29:41 PM
 #91

I am going to be completely honest here; I have no fucking clue what you are trying to say with the post quoted above.

Would you charitably contribute to the education of poor children, were you not forced to do so by a government?
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October 24, 2011, 11:34:03 PM
 #92

I am going to be completely honest here; I have no fucking clue what you are trying to say with the post quoted above.

Would you charitably contribute to the education of poor children, were you not forced to do so by a government?

I currently do so. I do not understand its relevance with regards to my involvement in this thread.

http://www.schoolonwheels.org/

It's a very good organization. Give them your crappy fiat.
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October 24, 2011, 11:38:10 PM
 #93

There have been dozens of studies like this.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/09/10/brains-of-liberals-conservatives-may-work-differently/1691.html

Quote
The work, to be reported today in the journal Nature Neuroscience, grew out of decades of previous research suggesting that political orientation is linked to certain personality traits or styles of thinking. A review of that research published in 2003 found that conservatives tend to be more rigid and closed-minded, less tolerant of ambiguity and less open to new experiences. Some of the traits associated with conservatives in that review were decidedly unflattering, including fear, aggression and tolerance of inequality. That evoked outrage from conservative pundits.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/28/conservatives-fear-center-brain/

Quote
A study at University College London in the UK has found that conservatives’ brains have larger amygdalas than the brains of liberals. Amygdalas are responsible for fear and other “primitive” emotions. At the same time, conservatives’ brains were also found to have a smaller anterior cingulate — the part of the brain responsible for courage and optimism.


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October 24, 2011, 11:39:00 PM
 #94

I currently do so. I do not understand its relevance with regards to my involvement in this thread..

You seemed to express incredulity that education for the poor could be provided voluntarily. I was suggesting that since you and others currently voluntarily do so, or at least would voluntarily do so if they were not forced to do so, that they would continue to do so without being forced.
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October 24, 2011, 11:39:46 PM
 #95


...


Conservatives != libertarians
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October 24, 2011, 11:40:29 PM
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There have been dozens of studies like this.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/09/10/brains-of-liberals-conservatives-may-work-differently/1691.html

Quote
The work, to be reported today in the journal Nature Neuroscience, grew out of decades of previous research suggesting that political orientation is linked to certain personality traits or styles of thinking. A review of that research published in 2003 found that conservatives tend to be more rigid and closed-minded, less tolerant of ambiguity and less open to new experiences. Some of the traits associated with conservatives in that review were decidedly unflattering, including fear, aggression and tolerance of inequality. That evoked outrage from conservative pundits.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/28/conservatives-fear-center-brain/

Quote
A study at University College London in the UK has found that conservatives’ brains have larger amygdalas than the brains of liberals. Amygdalas are responsible for fear and other “primitive” emotions. At the same time, conservatives’ brains were also found to have a smaller anterior cingulate — the part of the brain responsible for courage and optimism.



I don't recall there being a single conservative here. Maybe Red but that's about it.
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October 24, 2011, 11:42:43 PM
 #97

There have been dozens of studies like this.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/09/10/brains-of-liberals-conservatives-may-work-differently/1691.html

Quote
The work, to be reported today in the journal Nature Neuroscience, grew out of decades of previous research suggesting that political orientation is linked to certain personality traits or styles of thinking. A review of that research published in 2003 found that conservatives tend to be more rigid and closed-minded, less tolerant of ambiguity and less open to new experiences. Some of the traits associated with conservatives in that review were decidedly unflattering, including fear, aggression and tolerance of inequality. That evoked outrage from conservative pundits.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/28/conservatives-fear-center-brain/

Quote
A study at University College London in the UK has found that conservatives’ brains have larger amygdalas than the brains of liberals. Amygdalas are responsible for fear and other “primitive” emotions. At the same time, conservatives’ brains were also found to have a smaller anterior cingulate — the part of the brain responsible for courage and optimism.



I, for one, am afraid that the fags and liberals will mind-sodomize my children into their corrupt and immoral way of thinking. GW2008freedomain'tfreelet'sbuildawallforthembrownfolks.com...check out my blog.
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October 24, 2011, 11:45:06 PM
 #98

There have been dozens of studies like this.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/09/10/brains-of-liberals-conservatives-may-work-differently/1691.html

Quote
The work, to be reported today in the journal Nature Neuroscience, grew out of decades of previous research suggesting that political orientation is linked to certain personality traits or styles of thinking. A review of that research published in 2003 found that conservatives tend to be more rigid and closed-minded, less tolerant of ambiguity and less open to new experiences. Some of the traits associated with conservatives in that review were decidedly unflattering, including fear, aggression and tolerance of inequality. That evoked outrage from conservative pundits.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/28/conservatives-fear-center-brain/

Quote
A study at University College London in the UK has found that conservatives’ brains have larger amygdalas than the brains of liberals. Amygdalas are responsible for fear and other “primitive” emotions. At the same time, conservatives’ brains were also found to have a smaller anterior cingulate — the part of the brain responsible for courage and optimism.



I don't recall there being a single conservative here. Maybe Red but that's about it.

Great, so everyone but Red is all for publicly funded education and healthcare. Those two things go a long way to creating a powerhouse economy and a prospering middle class.

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October 24, 2011, 11:53:29 PM
 #99

Great, so everyone but Red is all for publicly funded education and healthcare. Those two things go a long way to creating a powerhouse economy and a prospering middle class.

Another beautiful fallacy. Being against coercively funded education or healthcare != conservative.

Keep them coming.

I'm also against coercively funded food and shelter, but I bet you are too.
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October 24, 2011, 11:54:39 PM
 #100

I currently do so. I do not understand its relevance with regards to my involvement in this thread..

You seemed to express incredulity that education for the poor could be provided voluntarily. I was suggesting that since you and others currently voluntarily do so, or at least would voluntarily do so if they were not forced to do so, that they would continue to do so without being forced.

I expressed incredulity that anyone would be so naive as to think that the little bit of volunteering is anywhere near sufficient to compare to public institutions, or that poor people can afford any sort of education at all. It sounds like serfdom to me. Anyone who truly believes that the poor can pick up and educate themselves has never spent time in a third world country...or the southeastern united states.

I would keep doing supplemental tutoring with four children who have nothing. I don't think my meager efforts would save them if they weren't allowed a public education.
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October 24, 2011, 11:57:47 PM
 #101

Great, so everyone but Red is all for publicly funded education and healthcare. Those two things go a long way to creating a powerhouse economy and a prospering middle class.

Another beautiful fallacy. Being against coercively funded education or healthcare != conservative.

Keep them coming.

I'm also against coercively funded food and shelter, but I bet you are too.

Publicly != coercively. Nice try.

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October 25, 2011, 12:04:40 AM
 #102

There have been dozens of studies like this.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/09/10/brains-of-liberals-conservatives-may-work-differently/1691.html

Quote
The work, to be reported today in the journal Nature Neuroscience, grew out of decades of previous research suggesting that political orientation is linked to certain personality traits or styles of thinking. A review of that research published in 2003 found that conservatives tend to be more rigid and closed-minded, less tolerant of ambiguity and less open to new experiences. Some of the traits associated with conservatives in that review were decidedly unflattering, including fear, aggression and tolerance of inequality. That evoked outrage from conservative pundits.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/28/conservatives-fear-center-brain/

Quote
A study at University College London in the UK has found that conservatives’ brains have larger amygdalas than the brains of liberals. Amygdalas are responsible for fear and other “primitive” emotions. At the same time, conservatives’ brains were also found to have a smaller anterior cingulate — the part of the brain responsible for courage and optimism.


That's conservative. Fuck conservatives with a large pineapple. Communists were conservatives. Libertarians seem anything but conservatives. Pro-let everyone do what they want and be who they want to be is just about as opposite of conservativism as you can get.

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October 25, 2011, 12:06:34 AM
 #103

Publicly != coercively. Nice try.

I assumed by "publicly funded" you meant "tax funded". If you don't think taxes are coercive, what happens when an individual doesn't pay it?
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October 25, 2011, 12:12:24 AM
 #104

Publicly != coercively. Nice try.

I assumed by "publicly funded" you meant "tax funded". If you don't think taxes are coercive, what happens when an individual doesn't pay it?

Taxation without representation is immoral. In a Representative Republic, we make laws that require taxes for funding in order to keep society progressive. If you don't pay taxes, then you are expecting to live in a society that provides for your safety and health and offer nothing in return. My momma didn't raise me that way. Did yours?

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October 25, 2011, 12:14:13 AM
 #105

Publicly != coercively. Nice try.

I assumed by "publicly funded" you meant "tax funded". If you don't think taxes are coercive, what happens when an individual doesn't pay it?

Taxation without representation is immoral. In a Representative Republic, we make laws that require taxes for funding in order to keep society progressive. If you don't pay taxes, then you are expecting to live in a society that provides for your safety and health and offer nothing in return. My momma didn't raise me that way. Did yours?

My mom raised me to not use force except in self defense. Not even to raise tax money. Did yours?
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October 25, 2011, 12:18:30 AM
 #106

Publicly != coercively. Nice try.

I assumed by "publicly funded" you meant "tax funded". If you don't think taxes are coercive, what happens when an individual doesn't pay it?

Taxation without representation is immoral. In a Representative Republic, we make laws that require taxes for funding in order to keep society progressive. If you don't pay taxes, then you are expecting to live in a society that provides for your safety and health and offer nothing in return. My momma didn't raise me that way. Did yours?

My mom raised me to not use force except in self defense. Not even to raise tax money. Did yours?

What "force" are you talking about? Fines? Bankruptcy? If someone makes an honest mistake and fails to pay taxes, they are rarely jailed. Fraud on the other hand hurts people and should be punished severely.

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October 25, 2011, 12:26:34 AM
 #107

I currently do so. I do not understand its relevance with regards to my involvement in this thread..

You seemed to express incredulity that education for the poor could be provided voluntarily. I was suggesting that since you and others currently voluntarily do so, or at least would voluntarily do so if they were not forced to do so, that they would continue to do so without being forced.

I expressed incredulity that anyone would be so naive as to think that the little bit of volunteering is anywhere near sufficient to compare to public institutions, or that poor people can afford any sort of education at all.


It worked fine before public funded education took over the religious imperative to educate children.  Still would, if the government would get out of the way.  Public education isn't about education, it's about social indoctrination.  Always has been, and the early proponents were pretty open about that.  They were, predominately, pro-eugenics fascists; before those were "bad".  They honestly believed that the lower classes needed to be 'indoctrinated' and acclimatized to the industrial factory work. 

Quote

It sounds like serfdom to me. Anyone who truly believes that the poor can pick up and educate themselves has never spent time in a third world country...or the southeastern united states.


They can and will, if that is what is left to them.  Some will fail, obviously; or be failed by their parents.  There is nought that public education is going to do to stop such trend, if the US is in long term decline.  For that matter, they have been trying to do exactly that since truancy laws were introduced to the US; and moreso since the Department of Education was established, and have always failed.  Try as they (and you) might, with the best of intentions, you cannot educate those who do not see value in it.  I attended a private school my entire childhood, at great expense to my parents, because of the sorry state of publicly funded education; yet the private schools are still modeled after the public institutions.  They end up that way because of efficiency.  My children are homeschooled, mostly by my wife who has a BS in Biology.  They make me look ignorant.  The major difference is that they don't spend hours each day in educational theater, surrounded by peers who do not wish to participate in the soul-crushing day-prison.  Ever wonder how a well behaved child can be a discipline nightmare at school?  It's often a direct result of the educational environment itself.

Quote

I would keep doing supplemental tutoring with four children who have nothing. I don't think my meager efforts would save them if they weren't allowed a public education.

Good for you, but don't delude yourself about their education.  Your efforts would be fruitless if not for their own efforts and the desires of their parents.  The average homeschooled child spends only 2-3 hours each day actually working on intentionally educational work.  So if you think about it, the truly successful students who are institutionally educated (public or private) are being homeschooled by their involved parents anyway.  It's just under the direction of the institution.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 25, 2011, 12:28:17 AM
 #108

Publicly != coercively. Nice try.

I assumed by "publicly funded" you meant "tax funded". If you don't think taxes are coercive, what happens when an individual doesn't pay it?

Taxation without representation is immoral.

So is representation without taxation, if you think about it.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 25, 2011, 12:34:43 AM
 #109

Publicly != coercively. Nice try.

I assumed by "publicly funded" you meant "tax funded". If you don't think taxes are coercive, what happens when an individual doesn't pay it?

Taxation without representation is immoral.

So is representation without taxation, if you think about it.

Whuuuhhhh!?!?

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October 25, 2011, 12:35:42 AM
 #110

So is representation without taxation, if you think about it.

I heard a brilliant lecture about this concept and its relationship to African governments and foreign aid. It basically pointed out that many African countries have representative government without taxation. The government and its salaries are paid with foreign aid. As such, the government tends to answer to foreigners rather the people it was supposed to represent.
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October 25, 2011, 12:42:33 AM
 #111

So is representation without taxation, if you think about it.

I heard a brilliant lecture about this concept and its relationship to African governments and foreign aid. It basically pointed out that many African countries have representative government without taxation. The government and its salaries are paid with foreign aid. As such, the government tends to answer to foreigners rather the people it was supposed to represent.


Yeah, they always use extreme examples like war-zones and Hitler. Gimme a break. Now you compare democracies with places like Somalia. Fail.

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October 25, 2011, 01:47:48 AM
 #112

Yeah, they always use extreme examples like war-zones and Hitler. Gimme a break. Now you compare democracies with places like Somalia. Fail.

What randomness are you babbling about? I didn't mention a war zone or Hitler.

The lecture I heard basically pointed out that if Bono in particular goes around pointing out how fucked up Aftrica is. And when the only pictures we see are starving, pitiful looking, victimized people. Then, no company is going to want to invest an Africa. Why on earth would they? You expect them to do their own research to find out that things really aren't so bad? When every "expert" in whole world is telling everyone these people can't possibly take care of themselves.

That means the only money flows in through aid. Which is usually given directly to the government. Which is supposed to represent the people. But what good is representing the people, when if you piss off the aid givers, nobody gets anything. So governments help the aid givers feel good about themselves. And they steal whatever they can when their not looking. Who cares! They're not stealing from the people. There're stealing from foreign governments and rich folks like Bono.

The lecture was from a native born African advocate for Africa. She wanted Bono to show the things that were working. And to encourage foreign business to start trading with local business. That way corrupt governments couldn't steal everything before it got to the people. And curiously she advocated Africans paying taxes so they would have a stake in the government.
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October 25, 2011, 02:03:45 AM
 #113

The lecture was from a native born African advocate for Africa. She wanted Bono to show the things that were working. And to encourage foreign business to start trading with local business. That way corrupt governments couldn't steal everything before it got to the people. And curiously she advocated Africans paying taxes so they would have a stake in the government.


I feel I've seen a similar Ted talk. Was it one of these?

http://www.ted.com/talks/ngozi_okonjo_iweala_on_doing_business_in_africa.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/ngozi_okonjo_iweala_on_aid_versus_trade.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/george_ayittey_on_cheetahs_vs_hippos.html
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October 25, 2011, 02:34:28 AM
 #114

I still don't see how "representation without taxation" = immoral. Sub-Sahara African nations are surely war-torn by tribal conflicts. Let's talk about non-extreme areas of Earth, please. Howsabout Northern or Southern African countries? Any examples there where people live peacefully but don't pay taxes to support their country? If not, then on any continent?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 25, 2011, 02:41:40 AM
 #115

I still don't see how "representation without taxation" = immoral. Sub-Sahara African nations are surely war-torn by tribal conflicts. Let's talk about non-extreme areas of Earth, please. Howsabout Northern or Southern African countries? Any examples there where people live peacefully but don't pay taxes to support their country? If not, then on any continent?

You'll probably get further in life if you do your own research to support your conclusions.
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October 25, 2011, 02:50:50 AM
 #116

I still don't see how "representation without taxation" = immoral. Sub-Sahara African nations are surely war-torn by tribal conflicts. Let's talk about non-extreme areas of Earth, please. Howsabout Northern or Southern African countries? Any examples there where people live peacefully but don't pay taxes to support their country? If not, then on any continent?

You'll probably get further in life if you do your own research to support your conclusions.

Are you denying tribal warfare in many Sub-Sarah African countries? That's the only assertion I have made. I am asking for any evidence that  representation without taxation" = immoral. I did not make that claim.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 25, 2011, 03:18:45 AM
 #117

I still don't see how "representation without taxation" = immoral. Sub-Sahara African nations are surely war-torn by tribal conflicts. Let's talk about non-extreme areas of Earth, please. Howsabout Northern or Southern African countries? Any examples there where people live peacefully but don't pay taxes to support their country? If not, then on any continent?

You'll probably get further in life if you do your own research to support your conclusions.

Are you denying tribal warfare in many Sub-Sarah African countries? That's the only assertion I have made. I am asking for any evidence that  representation without taxation" = immoral. I did not make that claim.

In another thread, he was arguing with me and seemed to be all for tribal warfare. It's self governance, after all.
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October 25, 2011, 03:32:34 AM
 #118

In another thread, he was arguing with me and seemed to be all for tribal warfare. It's self governance, after all.

[Citation needed]

Hint: you're attributing positions to me which I do not hold.
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October 25, 2011, 03:45:36 AM
 #119

In another thread, he was arguing with me and seemed to be all for tribal warfare. It's self governance, after all.

[Citation needed]

Hint: you're attributing positions to me which I do not hold.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49179.0

This retarded thread.

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October 25, 2011, 03:47:28 AM
 #120


Your participation didn't help the situation. Care to point out where I advocate for tribal warfare?
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October 25, 2011, 03:50:28 AM
 #121


Your participation didn't help the situation. Care to point out where I advocate for tribal warfare?

I can't believe you spend so much time arguing with people on the internet. I mean, it's about as stupid as jacking off with a belt around your neck and is waaaay less productive.

You seemingly advocate for everyone owning a gun and protecting themselves in the aforementioned thread.
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October 25, 2011, 03:53:53 AM
 #122

You guys just keep getting more and more unhinged.

Now I'm to take it there will be no war in your libertopia? The one where people are starving and uneducated because we expected charities to provide for every underpaid, uninsured worker in America when they can't even keep people now from going hungry? Where every business will be socially and environmentally responsible no matter how great they can profit from doing the opposite? Where every consumer will be perfectly informed about everything they buy despite the fact that they have no time to do so now, let alone when they're working 80 hours a week for less than minimum wage.

Quote from: MoonShadow
Try as they (and you) might, with the best of intentions, you cannot educate those who do not see value in it.

*note: for the purposes of this discussion, "those who do not see the value in it" and "those who cannot afford it" are apparently exactly the same thing.

Of course, the family that won't be able to afford private education will never be able to afford to have a parent stay home and homeschool their kids. The EVIL EUGENICS FACTORY FUNDED BY COERCION AND MURDER (P.S. FUCK HOMEWORK) looks to be their only choice.





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October 25, 2011, 04:12:55 AM
 #123

Now I'm to take it there will be no war in your libertopia?

I'm not saying there will be no violence, but without States coercively funded through taxation, who pays for war?

The one where people are starving and uneducated because we expected charities to provide for every underpaid, uninsured worker in America when they can't even keep people now from going hungry?

I'm sorry, are there no starving and uneducated people in this Statist world of ours?

Where every business will be socially and environmentally responsible no matter how great they can profit from doing the opposite?

Has the existence of States prevented them from doing so?

Where every consumer will be perfectly informed about everything they buy despite the fact that they have no time to do so now, let alone when they're working 80 hours a week for less than minimum wage.

People are not perfectly informed by State regulatory agencies today. Why do you think that a monopoly regulatory agency works better than a competitive one?

P.S. I'm pretty sure you know and understand that your system is fundamentally flawed, which is why you feel the need to demonize the caricature of ours.
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October 25, 2011, 04:22:45 AM
 #124

Now I'm to take it there will be no war in your libertopia?

I'm not saying there will be no violence, but without States coercively funded through taxation, who pays for war?

The people with the money - big business. If you can "buy out" your competitors for the cost of a small mercenary army, that's a bargain. And hey, no pesky state to stop you.

"...and everyone lived happily ever after in the glaring power vacuum" isn't a phrase that ends too many fairy tales, but it apparently does yours.

Quote
I'm sorry, are there no starving and uneducated people in this Statist world of ours?

Ah yes, things that are bad under current systems would obviously be better under your system because __________ .  I've given you a dozen really obvious reasons problems like that would be worse under a libertarian system, and so far the best defense to those you guys can muster seems to be "but charity could provide - I KNOW it could! Even though it clearly doesn't!".

Quote
Has the existence of States prevented them from doing so?

I don't think you understand this concept: just because something is bad now, doesn't mean literally ANY other thing you can name must automatically be better. Some things are quite clearly worse. Sorry if this confuses you.




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October 25, 2011, 04:42:59 AM
 #125

both of you are conflating libertarianism and anarchism.  A "libertopia" wouldn't be stateless, and damn well wouldn't be lacking in an organized collective defense force that is normally called and "army".  Rainingbitcoins, the vast majority of libertarians, myself included, do no make the argument that a stateless society could long exist, nor that any social ills external to government itself could be solved by such a stateless society in any sustainable way.  Please don't take the idealistic extreme positions of a few vocal fellow travelers as authoritative of the majority position.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 25, 2011, 04:52:11 AM
 #126

I know you're not arguing for a stateless society, but rather a society with a state so small that it would be completely powerless. I see little effective difference. Even under current governments, big business routinely commits crimes without a second thought if they know that the punishment will be lacking or non-existant.




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October 25, 2011, 05:14:32 AM
 #127


Started listening the the first one. Very interesting. Thanks for the link!

The one I heard was from the "Big Ideas" podcast series. It's Canadian broadcasting I think. It had a very similar theme.

Quote
Dambisa Moyo on Innovating Away from Aid   2/5/10   
In her best-selling book, Dead Aid, economist Dambisa Moyo, argues that aid to Africa breeds corruption and dependence and should be replaced with more innovative ways of financing, including capital markets and microfinance. Her lecture, Innovating Away
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October 25, 2011, 05:39:20 AM
 #128

I know you're not arguing for a stateless society, but rather a society with a state so small that it would be completely powerless. I see little effective difference. Even under current governments, big business routinely commits crimes without a second thought if they know that the punishment will be lacking or non-existant.

Under current governments, big business routinely commits crimes with the aid of governments.  A corporation is a legal entity that could not exist without the support of governments.  That is what they were invented for.

And the "state so small" that I advocate for is the very kind of state that the US had at the federal level post civil war and pre-1913.  Discounting the civil war and the first and second central banks (which were both relatively short lived), that "state so small" was pretty close to the ideal that the framers had intended.  Far closer, anyway, than what it looks like today.  Bear in mind that the 'robber barons' of the early part of the last century held fortunes rooted in monopolies originally granted by the federal government such as the railroad barons and oil tycoons.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 25, 2011, 05:51:40 AM
 #129

And you think none of that stuff would exist without governments, why, exactly? And what about privately-owned companies that commit the same sorts of crimes? I'm sure the boogeymangovernment was behind that too, somehow.




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October 25, 2011, 11:33:12 AM
 #130

I currently do so. I do not understand its relevance with regards to my involvement in this thread.

http://www.schoolonwheels.org/

And just how does that not prove my point?  As mentionned above, it's easy to find good people
willing to give free education.  Basically YOU guys.

Also, if I'm wrong and that nobody's willing to do it, so be it.  Poor people will have to pay,
just as they have to pay to eat, get dressed and find shelter.

Being poor means there are things you can't afford. By definition.  Libertarianism does not
have any pretention to eradicate poverty.  It might claim it's the best way to reduce it, but that's all.
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October 25, 2011, 11:49:36 AM
 #131

I can't afford to buy my own personal jet, much less the fuel to put in it, much less 1 single tire to put on the wheels of it.

Does the fact I can't afford those things, make me poor?

I don't think so...

Poor is about whether you can sustain yourself.

Buying x-boxes with a huge LED flat-screen to play it on, gold chains, 200 dollar sneakers, rims, 3000 dollar gaming rigs, full (or even basic) cable/internet service, android phones, etc etc etc and then whining about your home being a dump and not being able to make ends meet, does not make you poor.

Take a hard un-varnished look at a large proportion of the people we are told are supposed to be 'poor', and you'll find more often then not, their being 'poor' is a result of their own choices about where their spending priorities are.

Once we can get it through our heads to stop treating these self-made poor, as "The Poor", and focus on the impoverished, it is a much more manageable situation. The impoverished don't need as much as you think to raise themselves up to self-sustainability.

Even then... there are still some that remain impoverished, again, by their own choices. Sure, many just had some tough breaks and need a hand. We have plenty of charitable institutions that do just that, and ask nothing in return but your thanks. Government, on the other hand... as much as they love their red tape, they love their strings even more. This is how they maintain and increase their power over us.

Government, meddles. They get into our lives telling us how we are supposed to live, and what our priorities are supposed to be, to their own ends. They meddle, and they haven't the right.

There are necessary functions of what a government is supposed to be responsible for, but our (US) governments, on ALL levels, have been going way overboard for a long long time, and have great momentum now. More more more more more, and it won't stop, until we've voted in an authoritarian style system full bore, and still fool ourselves with the mantra "this is democracy"...

-- Smoov
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October 25, 2011, 11:54:54 AM
 #132

An other thing:  if public education aims at providing education to the poor, why on earth is it proposed to everybody???

Does the State assume that every one is a poor thing that must be taken care of?
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October 25, 2011, 12:09:04 PM
 #133

Take a hard un-varnished look at a large proportion of the people we are told are supposed to be 'poor', and you'll find more often then not, their being 'poor' is a result of their own choices about where their spending priorities are.

Minimum wage is about $1100 a month. Health insurance can easily cost over $700 a month. Kindly tell the poor how they should afford rent, food, insurance co-pays, medication, and utility bills on $400 a month. Or just keep blaming them for their own situation. One thing I find myself repeating that nobody ever seems to address: even if you blessed everyone with an awesome education and fantastic ambition, we still have tens of millions of service sector jobs that need to be done. Do the people working these jobs not deserve a living wage? Should they all live by the standards of the medieval poor just so a CEO's check can be that much fatter and your burger can be 5 cents cheaper? Is that your ideal world?

Adam Smith on relative poverty:
Quote
"A linen shirt … is, strictly speaking, not a necessary of life. The Greeks and Romans lived, I suppose, very comfortably though they had no linen. But in the present times, through the greater part of Europe, a creditable day-labourer would be ashamed to appear in public without a linen shirt, the want of which would be supposed to denote that disgraceful degree of poverty which, it is presumed, nobody can well fall into without extreme bad conduct."

And we see right here in your own reply what he meant by that last sentence. Idiots will always assume the poor did something wrong to get that way, even if they were born into it and never had a chance. As true in the 1700s as it is today.



Quote from: grondilu
Also, if I'm wrong and that nobody's willing to do it, so be it.  Poor people will have to pay,
just as they have to pay to eat, get dressed and find shelter.

If we ever have a libertarian society, hopefully you'll be the first person killed by the desperate poor for half a loaf of bread. Fuck you.

Quote
An other thing:  if public education aims at providing education to the poor, why on earth is it proposed to everybody???

Does the State assume that every one is a poor thing that must be taken care of?

Nobody's stopping you from going to a private school where no dirty poors will ever approach you.





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October 25, 2011, 12:13:42 PM
 #134

If we ever have a libertarian society, hopefully you'll be the first person killed by the desperate poor for half a loaf of bread. Fuck you.

Hum... lots of anger in your speech.  And you say WE are sociopaths??

Quote
Nobody's stopping you from going to a private school where no dirty poors will ever approach you.

Except that I'll still have to pay for public schools via taxation.  I guess I'll be OK to do that, providing that public shchools are reserved to poor people, so they don't cost too much for the tax payer.


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October 25, 2011, 12:20:43 PM
 #135

If we ever have a libertarian society, hopefully you'll be the first person killed by the desperate poor for half a loaf of bread. Fuck you.

Hum... lots of anger in your speech.  And you say WE are sociopaths??

I'm pretty sure that's the appropriate response to "heh, fuck it, who cares, let the poor die".




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grondilu
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October 25, 2011, 12:24:43 PM
 #136

I'm pretty sure that's the appropriate response to "heh, fuck it, who cares, let the poor die".

I am not a cynical person.  But I am lucid enough to aknowledge the existence of poverty in this world, and still being able to sleep well.

And anyway, I believe economic freedom is the best way to reduce poverty.  Communism or socialism just spreads it.
rainingbitcoins
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October 25, 2011, 12:27:56 PM
 #137

And anyway, I believe economic freedom is the best way to reduce poverty. Communism or socialism just spreads it.


I know this because wealthy capitalists told me so while they were busy overthrowing democratically-elected socialist governments!

Capitalism doesn't reduce poverty. It only shifts the full weight of the burden onto the shoulders of those we deem undesirable.




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NghtRppr
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October 25, 2011, 12:41:56 PM
 #138

I believe economic freedom is the best way to reduce poverty.

Capitalism doesn't reduce poverty.

He wrote "economic freedom". You're talking about crony capitalism. There is a huge difference.
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October 25, 2011, 12:50:02 PM
 #139

Yeah, yeah, No True Capitalist.  I feel like we've been here before.

Say, if everything we know now about capitalism is completely invalid because of government intervention, how is it that you have so much faith in something so untested? Or do you just go ahead and count all of the pluses as benefits of capitalism and decry every negative as government influence, no matter what the reality?

I'll also go ahead and repeat this question:
Quote
And you think none of that stuff would exist without governments, why, exactly? And what about privately-owned companies that commit the same sorts of crimes? I'm sure the boogeymangovernment was behind that too, somehow.




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Smoovious
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October 25, 2011, 12:55:21 PM
 #140

Minimum wage is about $1100 a month. Health insurance can easily cost over $700 a month. Kindly tell the poor how they should afford rent, food, insurance co-pays, medication, and utility bills on $400 a month. Or just keep blaming them for their own situation. One thing I find myself repeating that nobody ever seems to address: even if you blessed everyone with an awesome education and fantastic ambition, we still have tens of millions of service sector jobs that need to be done. Do the people working these jobs not deserve a living wage? Should they all live by the standards of the medieval poor just so a CEO's check can be that much fatter and your burger can be 5 cents cheaper? Is that your ideal world?
First off, wean yourself off the kool-ade...

People don't _deserve_ anything, but to be left alone without people interfering in how they live their lives.

What price do you put on that 'living wage'? How many hours? What should they do for that?

Suppose we keep raising the minimum wage? How does that help anything? You raise the wages, a company's operating expenses go up. As a result, the product/service's price needs to be adjusted to reflect the current operating expense. Add to that the constant inflation caused by money bring created out of thin air year after year.

This is a never ending cycle this way.

Dig deeper into what those operating expenses really are, and besides the raw material costs, energy costs, equipment costs, labor costs, and you find taxes.

You don't see them on a daily basis but they are there.

Every time taxes get raised or set upon the companies and the rich, disproportional to the general public, where do you think those tax revenues come from? Does the company just magically pull the extra taxes out of their >coughs< and send them to the government?

No. We pay for them. To a company, taxes are just another operating expense, and gets factored into the price of that packet of kool-ade you buy at the store.

More taxes, higher prices... higher prices, need more money to pay for them... so, you need higher wages to do so... so you get that raise in the minimum wage... which increases the operating expenses for the product... so the product's price gets adjusted to reflect the additional expense, leading to higher prices... higher prices, need more money to pay for them... so, you need higher wages to do so... so you get that raise in the minimum wage... which increases the operating expenses for the product... so the product's price gets adjusted to reflect the additional expense, leading to higher prices... oh look! one of the politicians just came up with "A Plan"... scary... but they need more money to administer this spiffy new Plan that we got along just fine without, so, more taxes... but, we have an election coming up in 4 years and they don't wanna lose their jobs by getting voted out of office, so, they sell this Plan by setting things up so they tax the corporations and the rich so we don't have to pay for it... and lets buy up more votes as a buffer by raising the poverty rate so more of the voters we want can pay less taxes, and thank us for it.

Taxes are what is killing us.

Big government is sucking the life out of our economy, and our country.

When we become adults, we get kicked out of the nest to succeed or fail on our own merits.

The government is not my keeper.

As for those CEO's you like to demonize... They worked hard for their money, experience, and position. Playboy figurehead CEO's don't last long and their companies die out.

I don't blame "the rich" one bit for holding onto their money. For one, it is THEIR money.

If I was in their position, facing the regulatory and taxation climate we're in now? With the only certainty, being that they are going to get mugged and bled even drier than they have been already? Hell yeah, I'd have a VERY hard time investing now too. I'd be a fool to even try.

You wanna keep looking at other cultures for their examples, here's a few. Look at Hong Kong... Dubai... perhaps even Singapore (not sure about the last one, but I think they fit with the other two).

Look into how they treat business interests there. Their tax burden, how much an investor has to go through to start a business and continue to do business there. Then look at the result in their economies.

Money moves a lot faster there, and taxes work best with lower rates, and faster moving money.

A dollar that stays clutched in your fist, in a business-hostile, heavy-tax, environment is worth zero.

A dollar that changes hands rapidly, in a business-friendly, light-tax, environment is worth thousands.

As for education... we have a few threats that insure our educational system will stay in decline.

No community involvement. (the current environment actually hinders this)

Unions. (as in most cases it seems, proficiency is irrelevant when it comes to employment. I always hated the union jobs I had. I was not allowed to earn more money than someone who was there longer than me, even tho I worked my ass off, and the person next to me gossiped more than her job. When you can't pay an employee according to their worth, or fire someone who isn't pulling their weight, or someone who is just plain incompetent? Because of a union? Then yeah... the union stops being the positive influence they were supposed to be.)

People who place more emphasis on ideology than reality. (if you're going to teach history, then teach history. not just the parts that further your ideology.)

Teaching to the lowest common denominator. (Schools are not made to make people feel good. They are made to challenge, and educate, and students will sink or swim on their own merits. I can't tell you how pissed off I was in high school english classes when the bulk of the class kept getting passed to the next grade when they could barely read, while I could read out loud fluently without hesitation, tested well, but would not get passed simply because I got fed up and would not do the daily 'make-work' anymore. When the #1 measure of what a child is learning, which are tests, count for so little, that straight A+'s on every single test and final exam, and absolutely zero make-work submitted, doesn't even let you pass with a D-? Then what possible value could the grade itself have in the first place.)

Education has a lot of problems,  but it isn't going to get fixed on the federal level. I'm not even sure it can be fixed on the state level.

Schools are a local issue, and the local communities are the ones who need to handle it, without interference from the nanny state, as they are the ones who are closest to the situation, and have the most at stake.

(btw, I am all for a voucher program, and let them give their voucher to whatever public or private school they wish to, with everything above that voucher amount, paid by the families themselves.)

-- Smoov
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October 25, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
 #141

Hey, what a crazy coincidence. You believe exactly what right-wing corporate media told you to believe without wavering on a single point. Way to think for yourself, buddy. I'm sure the sources of your information have no vested interest in making themselves out to be as virtuous as you say.

I'm not going to waste my time refuting a thousand words of bog-standard Fox News talking points, but you have a nice day in your bubble of delusion.




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grondilu
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October 25, 2011, 01:10:07 PM
 #142

Say, if everything we know now about capitalism is completely invalid because of government intervention, how is it that you have so much faith in something so untested? Or do you just go ahead and count all of the pluses as benefits of capitalism and decry every negative as government influence, no matter what the reality?

Not everything we know about capitalism is wrong.  Some aspects of it are, but not all of them.

Everything I use every day comes from capitalism.  From the food I eat to the computer I use to type this message.  I also own company shares whose dividends pay most of my bills.  Whithout capitalism I'd be totally helpless, poor and ignorant.   That's pretty much why I have "faith" in it, to answer your question.
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October 25, 2011, 01:10:36 PM
 #143

Actually, Libertarians are more to the left, than even Democrats are.

Democrats and Republicans are much more alike to each other than either are to Libertarians.

They are in a symbiotic relationship, which depend on each other to maintain their power.

I am socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Definitely, _NOT_, a Republican.

-- Smoov
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October 25, 2011, 01:14:31 PM
 #144

Say, if everything we know now about capitalism is completely invalid because of government intervention, how is it that you have so much faith in something so untested? Or do you just go ahead and count all of the pluses as benefits of capitalism and decry every negative as government influence, no matter what the reality?

Not everything we know about capitalism is wrong.  Some aspects of it are, but not all of them.

Coincidentally, the "untrue" ones all happen to be the inconvenient ones. Funny how that works out.




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