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Author Topic: Libertarians Are Sociopaths  (Read 10454 times)
rainingbitcoins
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October 25, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
 #141

Hey, what a crazy coincidence. You believe exactly what right-wing corporate media told you to believe without wavering on a single point. Way to think for yourself, buddy. I'm sure the sources of your information have no vested interest in making themselves out to be as virtuous as you say.

I'm not going to waste my time refuting a thousand words of bog-standard Fox News talking points, but you have a nice day in your bubble of delusion.
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grondilu
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October 25, 2011, 01:10:07 PM
 #142

Say, if everything we know now about capitalism is completely invalid because of government intervention, how is it that you have so much faith in something so untested? Or do you just go ahead and count all of the pluses as benefits of capitalism and decry every negative as government influence, no matter what the reality?

Not everything we know about capitalism is wrong.  Some aspects of it are, but not all of them.

Everything I use every day comes from capitalism.  From the food I eat to the computer I use to type this message.  I also own company shares whose dividends pay most of my bills.  Whithout capitalism I'd be totally helpless, poor and ignorant.   That's pretty much why I have "faith" in it, to answer your question.
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October 25, 2011, 01:10:36 PM
 #143

Actually, Libertarians are more to the left, than even Democrats are.

Democrats and Republicans are much more alike to each other than either are to Libertarians.

They are in a symbiotic relationship, which depend on each other to maintain their power.

I am socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Definitely, _NOT_, a Republican.

-- Smoov
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October 25, 2011, 01:14:31 PM
 #144

Say, if everything we know now about capitalism is completely invalid because of government intervention, how is it that you have so much faith in something so untested? Or do you just go ahead and count all of the pluses as benefits of capitalism and decry every negative as government influence, no matter what the reality?

Not everything we know about capitalism is wrong.  Some aspects of it are, but not all of them.

Coincidentally, the "untrue" ones all happen to be the inconvenient ones. Funny how that works out.
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October 25, 2011, 01:18:19 PM
 #145

Coincidentally, the "untrue" ones all happen to be the inconvenient ones. Funny how that works out.

Capitalism is the private ownership of means of production.  Period.  There is nothing in such a definition about elected morons spoiling other people's property or rich people corrupting those elected morons.  Or other stuffs like that.

The corrupted capitalism you seem to dislike is much more a problem with democracy than with capitalism.
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October 25, 2011, 01:20:56 PM
 #146

The corrupted capitalism you seem to dislike is much more a problem with democracy than with capitalism.
Actually, the problem isn't so much with democracy (although, we're supposed to be a republic) in itself.

It has more to do with the personal honor of those we're collectively stupid enough to keep re-electing.

Time and time again, we vote people in for the wrong reasons.

Democracy isn't the problem, we are.

-- Smoov
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October 25, 2011, 01:25:12 PM
 #147

Quote from: grondilu
Capitalism is the private ownership of means of production.  Period.  There is nothing in such a definition about elected morons spoiling other people's property or rich people corrupting those elected morons.  Or other stuffs like that.

The corrupted capitalism you seem to dislike is much more a problem with democracy than with capitalism.

And for about the tenth time I have to ask, why do you think rampant greed, corruption, exploitation and other unsavory business practices would suddenly cease under a powerless government? Why would you think companies with virtually unlimited resources and no real rules would be the least bit ethical, based on the last 400 years of capitalism?


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Or other stuffs like that.

Are you French? They're the only ones I've ever seen pluralize the word "stuff". Just curious.
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October 25, 2011, 01:36:11 PM
 #148

Quote from: grondilu
Capitalism is the private ownership of means of production.  Period.  There is nothing in such a definition about elected morons spoiling other people's property or rich people corrupting those elected morons.  Or other stuffs like that.

The corrupted capitalism you seem to dislike is much more a problem with democracy than with capitalism.

And for about the tenth time I have to ask, why do you think rampant greed, corruption, exploitation and other unsavory business practices would suddenly cease under a powerless government? Why would you think companies with virtually unlimited resources and no real rules would be the least bit ethical, based on the last 400 years of capitalism?

Because between competing companies there is an equilibrium of forces, and the less greedy finally gets the more customers.

I want to exploit a poor worker by giving him one penny to build a thing that I'll sell one dollar.  Now, comes an other ugly capitalist pig who talks to my worker and offers him two pennies.  My worker resigns and work for my competitor.  Then an other guy offers three pennies, and so on.

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Are you French? They're the only ones I've ever seen pluralize the word "stuff". Just curious.

Yes, I am.  Please spare me your french bashing.
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October 25, 2011, 01:42:57 PM
 #149

Quote from: grondilu
Capitalism is the private ownership of means of production.  Period.  There is nothing in such a definition about elected morons spoiling other people's property or rich people corrupting those elected morons.  Or other stuffs like that.

The corrupted capitalism you seem to dislike is much more a problem with democracy than with capitalism.

And for about the tenth time I have to ask, why do you think rampant greed, corruption, exploitation and other unsavory business practices would suddenly cease under a powerless government? Why would you think companies with virtually unlimited resources and no real rules would be the least bit ethical, based on the last 400 years of capitalism?

Because between competing companies there is an equilibrium of forces, and the less greedy finally gets the more customers.

I want to exploit a poor worker by giving him one penny to build thing I'll sell one dollar.  Now, comes an other ugly capitalist pig who talks to my worker and offers him two pennies.  My worker resigns and work for my competitor.  Then an other guy offers three pennies, and so on.

This is the kind of "Mary has three apples" bullshit that never applies in the real world. In the real world, everybody just kind of pays shit. And the more unregulated you get (see late 1800s America), the shittier it is. And in the real world, virtually all industries trend slowly but surely towards monopoly.

Quote
Yes, I am.  Please spare me your french bashing.

I don't bash people based on nationality and I'd honestly rather live in your country than here in the U.S. I just noticed a weird grammatical quirk that I only ever heard from the French roommates I used to have and their friends - that's all.
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October 25, 2011, 01:48:53 PM
 #150

This is the kind of "Mary has three apples" bullshit that never applies in the real world. In the real world, everybody just kind of pays shit. And the more unregulated you get (see late 1800s America), the shittier it is. And in the real world, virtually all industries trend slowly but surely towards monopoly.

There is nothing wrong with a monopoly as long as it emerges from free market.  A coercive monopoly is not compatible with liberalism.

I don't know about the 19th century, but it seems to me that your country has developped quite a lot during this period.

rainingbitcoins
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October 25, 2011, 01:57:10 PM
 #151

I don't know about the 1800, but it seems to me that your country has developped quite a lot during this period.

So did the Soviet Union under Stalin and so did China under Mao, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a massive human cost to that development. A cost paid entirely by the poor to benefit the rich in our case. It was those abuses in America and the workers' sometimes violent reaction to them that scared the hell out of politicians and so brought about many of America's most basic safety and labor regulations. I'd rather not go back to the days when a kid would go to work in the mines at 9 or 10 and die of black lung at 30 or 40. Interestingly, our captains of industry back then all said that the economy would be destroyed and they'd all go out of business if they weren't allowed to use child labor - the same excuse they use today when people demand a living wage for their hard work.
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October 25, 2011, 02:00:03 PM
 #152

Have no problem with people demanding a particular wage for their labors... We all should negotiate our own pay.

If the employer isn't willing to pay that wage, negotiate to a middle ground, or go look somewhere else. Free market capitalism.

When the gov't intrudes and mandates what the pay should be? Then we got a problem.

-- Smoov
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October 25, 2011, 02:05:16 PM
 #153

And you think one guy has any sort of leverage whatsoever against a multi-billion dollar corporation?

Your free market sure gives a lot of illusions of choice, but unless you're an extremely exceptional individual, you effectively have none.
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October 25, 2011, 07:57:05 PM
 #154

An other thing:  if public education aims at providing education to the poor, why on earth is it proposed to everybody???

Does the State assume that every one is a poor thing that must be taken care of?


I should hope it assumes that, rich or poor, kids don't chose what life they were born into, and everyone should be given an equal chance at starting life before they get to a point where they actually can make their own choices, for better or worse.

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October 25, 2011, 08:08:29 PM
 #155

Any examples there where people live peacefully but don't pay taxes to support their country? If not, then on any continent?

Cayman Islands?

And you think one guy has any sort of leverage whatsoever against a multi-billion dollar corporation?

Your free market sure gives a lot of illusions of choice, but unless you're an extremely exceptional individual, you effectively have none.

If you think workers in exploiting capitalist markets have no choice, please tell that to the business owners who outsourced to Mexico, China, and India. With labor shortages and rapidly rising wages in those countries, I am sure those business owners could use a laugh.

By the way, my parents are poor. They make six figures a year each from their normal jobs, plus own about 4 rental properties, and run a small business from home. Yet their monthly bills are over $20,000 a month, and after all the other expenses (like supporting my younger brother, my grandparents, sending money to family back in our country, paying off loans used for medical expenses for my grandparents, etc), they can't afford any frivolous stuff like eating out, new clothes, car repairs, or most types of groceries. I think they "need" assistance.

I an poor. I make a very (VERY) comfortable income, but after all the money that goes to max out my retirement and savings accounts, I only bring home maybe $600 every two weeks. After all my bills and student loans and money I spend on friends and family to help them or keep them entertained, I can't afford things like cable TV, video game consoles, weekly trips to restaurants or movies, new shoes, and many times even a good lunch. I do litteraly live on $900 or so a month. Less than that even. Maybe I'm poor, and "need" stuff like food stamps. That would make coking dinner much easier, since I won't have to do it from scratch so often.

My ex-bf in KY lives with his wife, and both of them bring home about $1,000 a month after taxes. No 401k's or retirement accounts, practically no savings accounts, and a lot of the money goes to pay off the wife's old credit card loans. They have nice TVs, a PS3 and an X-Box with lots of games, they have a nice collection of DVDs, and go out to the movies often, they eat nice foods, and buy themselves lots of things like clothes, tech toys, and other stuffs. They are also poor and always broke.

But why is it that my poor ex-bf has all that fun stuff he spends money on, and is actually considered poor, while my family and I are usually broke, don't have any of those fun entertaining things, and can't afford to enjoy our lives like he can, but we're supposedly not poor at all? Heck, in the end, he may have free spending cash than we do (moreso, since he's willing to use credit cards) Is it just different priorities?

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October 25, 2011, 08:58:57 PM
 #156

Face it. It is pretty much your responsibility to take care of everyone else on the planet. Why? Because if you are here on this site you are "the rich".

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

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October 25, 2011, 09:11:56 PM
 #157

Face it. It is pretty much your responsibility to take care of everyone else on the planet. Why? Because if you are here on this site you are "the rich".

http://www.globalrichlist.com/



Damn, that is an excellent visualization. Makes it pretty obvious that we think mostly in relative terms, doesn't it?
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October 25, 2011, 09:33:42 PM
 #158

Damn, that is an excellent visualization. Makes it pretty obvious that we think mostly in relative terms, doesn't it?

I know! Egocentric terms are so ingrained in us it is hard to imagine any other way. However, when reading on different human languages, I was totally blown away to learn that some humans are much less dependent on the concept. They don't even use relative directions like, "On your right side." They would say, "On your north side" or "On your south side" depending on which way you were facing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_direction#Cultures_not_using_relative_directions

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But anyway, "I am the 1%!"  Just not egocentrically. Smiley
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October 25, 2011, 11:03:34 PM
 #159

why do you think rampant greed, corruption, exploitation and other unsavory business practices

Corruption of what? Exploitation of what? There's no government to corrupt. There's no loopholes to exploit.
rainingbitcoins
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October 26, 2011, 03:34:55 AM
 #160

why do you think rampant greed, corruption, exploitation and other unsavory business practices

Corruption of what? Exploitation of what? There's no government to corrupt. There's no loopholes to exploit.

Seriously?

Jesus Christ, capitalism really is a religion to you people. Sorry for bashing your faith.
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