Would you invest in BitCoin fund?

[ultima]

I'm thinking of opening a BitCoin fund. The fund would trade bitcoins, publicly traded options and ETFs. It would give people a chance to earn some interest on their bitcoins (and me a chance to earn some fees .

Deposit and withdrawals would be instant (just like mtgox and other exchanges), no time/amount limits. Would you trust a few cents to a complete stranger?

[1715335036]

1715335036

[1715335036]

1715335036

[1715335036]

1715335036

[worldinacoin]

I guess I won't.  Just feeling that Bitcoin is not even really established as a currency yet.  Is it time for funds, derivatives and all sorts of advanced financial tools?

[ultima]

Why not? I have a few hundred BTC and don't have anything to do with them. I tought it would be nice to be able to invest them.

[netrin]

There are ways that this 'complete stranger' could identify himself.

[worldinacoin]

Why not? I have a few hundred BTC and don't have anything to do with them. I tought it would be nice to be able to invest them.

Any portfolio for us to see where our few cents are going to?

[ultima]

There are ways that this 'complete stranger' could identify himself.

I can't give you my real name. I will probably start the fund with my and my friends' bitcoins. It will be enough.

Any portfolio for us to see where our few cents are going to?

Not yet. I have my personal investment portfolios, but the fund is just an idea at the moment. About my personal investments... some solid dividend paying stocks (PG, JNJ, TEF, T, CSCO...), some gold and silver miners, and some short term trades (short SP500, silver 1 year $28 calls, EURUSD 6 months 1,38 puts). Remember, these are some of my positions at the moment and can change at any time. EURUSD puts and SP500 short are used as a hedge to silver calls bought at $28 a few weeks ago.

Oh, and yes, I know Cisco is not solid dividend paying stock... I bought it because it got so oversold.

[ultima]

The web app is finished, and I am already managing some bitcoins (some friends accounts). I need to do some more testing before I open it to public.

You may want to check out the LIF funds traded on the GLBSE. How would you differentiate yourself from them?

Is this a closed-end fund? What I want to do is instant deposits and withdrawals. In your case I need to find a buyer for my fund shares first. In my case fund will redeem your shares (liquidate some investments if needed) and pay out your share.

[HowToShotWeb]

No probably not. Maybe down the line though

[robocop]

No i would not invest bitcoins in your fund because i think that the bitcoin economy will be more and more to an big speculation and the confidience in bitcoin will still going down.

[Nyaaan]

I might, it depends...
Bitcoin is still relatively new though, set up a fund IRL.

[ultima]

The site is up and running. Just a few more days to test everything and I will post the site address here, so you can check it out (probably saturday or sunday).

[mr chong]

Still too early, more time with sustained value in btc is needed before a fund would really be a viable option.

[Leandro César]

There is a investment group running, right now!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46750.0

L.

[ultima]

The fund is open to public now. It is called Ultima fund: http://www.ultimafund.com/

[BitcoinSnails]

Hi ultima, is there a problem with http://www.ultimafund.com? I have invested some bitcents to test it out and today I can't login – the page says "Invalid username or password." I have already tryed to recover password, but I get page "500 Server encountered an error and could not complete your request".

Seriously, whats going on? Script kiddies or BTC thieves?

[ultima]

Server problems... it works now.

[Emil]

Do you have any personal details? Phone number? Registered company? Couldn't find that info at a first glance of your website.

Personally I don't invest BTC (only use it as a bridge currency), but if I did, I would not invest with a website that isn't upfront about who they are in real life.

[Beaflag VonRathburg]

Do you have any personal details? Phone number? Registered company? Couldn't find that info at a first glance of your website.

Personally I don't invest BTC (only use it as a bridge currency), but if I did, I would not invest with a website that isn't upfront about who they are in real life.

I agree with you. With the anonymous nature of BTC the simple fact that you could up and walk away with everyone's coins is a deterrent. Although, I do wish I had personally invested in BTC a few months ago when I saw coins at roughly $2.90 USD.

[kevinmark]

well good idea of investing.

[ultima]

Do you have any personal details? Phone number? Registered company? Couldn't find that info at a first glance of your website.

Personally I don't invest BTC (only use it as a bridge currency), but if I did, I would not invest with a website that isn't upfront about who they are in real life.

We have discussed the anonymity in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50807.0

[Goomboo]

Hey Ultima,

I've looked at your operations and I do have a few problems:

1.  This is illegal.  You are acting as a pass-through entity to allow individuals who are not approved for certain asset classes to invest in them.
2.  You don't publish your positions.

Cool idea, but it's illegal

(I have a BA in Finance and working on the MS in Finance, so I'm not just making this up :p)

[Twister Trojan]

I'm thinking of opening a BitCoin fund. The fund would trade bitcoins, publicly traded options and ETFs. It would give people a chance to earn some interest on their bitcoins (and me a chance to earn some fees .

Deposit and withdrawals would be instant (just like mtgox and other exchanges), no time/amount limits. Would you trust a few cents to a complete stranger?

Don't take this personally, but no thank you, I can do all that myself and like it that way because if it doesn't go well, I have no one to blame but myself

[is4tomj]

Goomboo may be correct, but there are bigger legal issues here that I don't see addressed either.  I don't see documentation regarding whether Ultima is a registered broker dealer or financial advisor.  According the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 all broker-dealers are required to be registered with the SEC.  Some foreign broker-dealers have tried to skirt the issue by trading on a foreign exchange, however, the "Guide to Broker-Dealer Registration" published by the SEC clearly states in that a broker-dealer is required to be regulated and registered with the SEC if the a broker-dealer is 1) physically operating within the US, 2) is attempt to induce securities transaction in the US, or 3) use any means or instrumentalities of interstate commerce must register with the SEC as a broker-dealer.

Number 3 is particularly important, the phrase "instrumentalities of interstate commerce" is the phrasing that has been used by the US Supreme Court in countless cases, granting plenary power to the US Federal Government (specifically congress) enumerated in the US Constitution.  The US Congress has plenary power to regulate all commerce within the US boarders and US citizens.

I am currently writing a more in depth article on this tomorrow, which I will post.  My intent is merely to recount both statutory and case law around regard financial services related to bitcoin.  I will not apply the law to Ultima's specific set of facts.

On a common sense note, why would any body be so stupid as to invest with Ultima??  If a broker-dealer won't disclose her identity, then why would you give her your money?  The more I look at Ultima's site, the stronger it reeks of fraud!  Someone should report this guy to the forum admins, we don't want this kind of trash around scamming people.

[Goomboo]

I would like to throw out an investment alternative to everyone on here which offers better / legal returns and IS registered with the National Futures Association and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission:

www.currensee.com

Ultima, you may have pure and noble motives, but I suggest you become a registered CTA (Commodity Trading Advisor) prior to soliciting funds from this already battered community.

[is4tomj]

Oh darn, Goomboo, I was hoping that link was going to a BTCUSD firm.  Have you found any legit investment funds trading BTC yet?

[Goomboo]

Oh darn, Goomboo, I was hoping that link was going to a BTCUSD firm.  Have you found any legit investment funds trading BTC yet?

Nope, and I don't see a reason to do so.  There isn't enough volume in this market to earn a respectable return on a respectable amount of capital.  If you are trying to invest, I seriously suggest growing your "real money" through a legal venue until BTC becomes a more liquid instrument.  Bitcoin trades at BEST, what?  $1,000,000 per day?

The futures market for the EUR/USD trades about $66 billion per day
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/fx/g10/euro-fx_quotes_globex.html

While the spot market for EUR/USD trades over a trillion dollars per day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market

[coinft]

Oh darn, Goomboo, I was hoping that link was going to a BTCUSD firm.  Have you found any legit investment funds trading BTC yet?

Nope, and I don't see a reason to do so.  There isn't enough volume in this market to earn a respectable return on a respectable amount of capital.  If you are trying to invest, I seriously suggest growing your "real money" through a legal venue until BTC becomes a more liquid instrument.  Bitcoin trades at BEST, what?  $1,000,000 per day?

The futures market for the EUR/USD trades about $66 billion per day
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/fx/g10/euro-fx_quotes_globex.html

While the spot market for EUR/USD trades over a trillion dollars per day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market

These are among the most liquid markets world wide. Taken these requirements, you can't trade even well respected stocks. And many established small commodities trade below BTC/USD volume.

Also your definition of legal seems to depend on US law. It wasn't mentioned where the fund is located, and legality may depend on client location too.

You may be a professional, and this may make you blind to new dynamics in upcoming developments. I am not immune to this myself, in the field of IT.

*Trust* is a much more universal deterrent to investing here, and one why I would not consider this.

-coinft.

[is4tomj]

I am currently writing a more in depth article on this tomorrow, which I will post.  My intent is merely to recount both statutory and case law around regard financial services related to bitcoin.  I will not apply the law to Ultima's specific set of facts.

http://blog.tradingtitan.com/post/16271054719/can-the-us-regulate-bitcoin-brokers

[Kettenmonster]

I'm thinking of opening a BitCoin fund. ...

You add one level of complexity by adding another currency into the equations regular funds have to solve.
Sorry, but my brain is too small to grasp the brilliance in that approach.

[EnergyVampire]

I like the idea of a BTC fund if full disclosure is part of the deal. Right now this reminds me of the "Investment Funds" at Eveonline.