George Carlin describes today's world eloquently...

[I.Goldstein]

Look, forget about the argument on views and rights. The fact is a society based on whims and a perception with no limits will inevitable end. Rights cannot be reinstated once taken. This government will collapse in revolution because of a lack of principle and what you are advocating.

Hawker's position is that society already voted your rights away, so you better have a damn good reason and convince everyone that you deserve them back!

He also rests on the assumption that denying people myself is affecting them as if they own me by default. It's incredulous.

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[Hawker]

...snip...

You are a part of the society whose constitution you want implemented in your way.  That affects the other people in that society.  If you are harmless you can spout any opinions you want and no-one cares.  But on things like tax, war, social policy, yours is just one opinion among many and if you can't be bothered explaining your views you can't complain if they are ignored.

Look, forget about the argument on views and rights. The fact is a society based on whims and a perception with no limits will inevitable end. Rights cannot be reinstated once taken. This government will collapse in revolution because of a lack of principle and what you are advocating.

You live is a spectacularly rich country with more freedom than 90% of the world's population.  Do you really think the US will be the first rich free society to collapse?

[Hawker]

Look, forget about the argument on views and rights. The fact is a society based on whims and a perception with no limits will inevitable end. Rights cannot be reinstated once taken. This government will collapse in revolution because of a lack of principle and what you are advocating.

Hawker's position is that society already voted your rights away, so you better have a damn good reason and convince everyone that you deserve them back!

He also rests on the assumption that denying people myself is affecting them as if they own me by default. It's incredulous.

You can do as you please.  I already said that

What you can't do is tell other people how they should live.  You have your view on how to interpret the US constitution.  If your view is enforced, that affects how other people live.  And there are other opinions.  Your view is just one of many and if you want yours adopted, you do need to justify it.

[I.Goldstein]

...snip...

You are a part of the society whose constitution you want implemented in your way.  That affects the other people in that society.  If you are harmless you can spout any opinions you want and no-one cares.  But on things like tax, war, social policy, yours is just one opinion among many and if you can't be bothered explaining your views you can't complain if they are ignored.

Look, forget about the argument on views and rights. The fact is a society based on whims and a perception with no limits will inevitable end. Rights cannot be reinstated once taken. This government will collapse in revolution because of a lack of principle and what you are advocating.

You live is a spectacularly rich country with more freedom than 90% of the world's population.  Do you really think the US will be the first rich free society to collapse?

I don't live to compete nor compare. I don't live to be greater than the 90% or not to be in the bottom. I live to achieve what I deem my happiness and to achieve it for others. I know the US won't be the first to collapse but I know it had a lot of potential in its inception unlike any nation before it: A decentralized land of sovereign entities. A grand of example of competition on a political scale; true choice on how one can live his life but this has long vanished into a shell this nation once was.

I will feel a loss once its entirely gone. There's no telling if there will ever be anything like this country again.

[I.Goldstein]

Look, forget about the argument on views and rights. The fact is a society based on whims and a perception with no limits will inevitable end. Rights cannot be reinstated once taken. This government will collapse in revolution because of a lack of principle and what you are advocating.

Hawker's position is that society already voted your rights away, so you better have a damn good reason and convince everyone that you deserve them back!

He also rests on the assumption that denying people myself is affecting them as if they own me by default. It's incredulous.

You can do as you please.  I already said that

What you can't do is tell other people how they should live.  You have your view on how to interpret the US constitution.  If your view is enforced, that affects how other people live.  And there are other opinions.  Your view is just one of many and if you want yours adopted, you do need to justify it.

Let's see what happens when I don't pay property taxes.

That's the thing: I don't want to tell others how to live. It's mostly them telling me to pay for their wars and healthcare. I just don't want to be a slave. However, telling everyone to do everything voluntarily and at a state level is apparently coercive?

[Hawker]

...snip...

Let's see what happens when I don't pay property taxes.

That's the thing: I don't want to tell others how to live. It's mostly them telling me to pay for their wars and healthcare. I just don't want to be a slave. However, telling everyone to do everything voluntarily is apparently coercive?

Do you believe there should be a border and a defence force?

[I.Goldstein]

...snip...

Let's see what happens when I don't pay property taxes.

That's the thing: I don't want to tell others how to live. It's mostly them telling me to pay for their wars and healthcare. I just don't want to be a slave. However, telling everyone to do everything voluntarily is apparently coercive?

Do you believe there should be a border and a defence force?

That should be up to the individual states who have borders. It's not a federal issue.

[Hawker]

...snip...

Let's see what happens when I don't pay property taxes.

That's the thing: I don't want to tell others how to live. It's mostly them telling me to pay for their wars and healthcare. I just don't want to be a slave. However, telling everyone to do everything voluntarily is apparently coercive?

Do you believe there should be a border and a defence force?

That should be up to the individual states who have borders. It's not a federal issue.

So if your state has voted for having a border and a defence force you are ok with it.

[I.Goldstein]

...snip...

Let's see what happens when I don't pay property taxes.

That's the thing: I don't want to tell others how to live. It's mostly them telling me to pay for their wars and healthcare. I just don't want to be a slave. However, telling everyone to do everything voluntarily is apparently coercive?

Do you believe there should be a border and a defence force?

That should be up to the individual states who have borders. It's not a federal issue.

So if your state has voted for having a border and a defence force you are ok with it.

I would be against it. Immigrants only add economic benefit unless they only come to feed off entitlements. In a constitutional America, I would just move to another state if I didn't like the law.

[Hawker]

...snip...

Let's see what happens when I don't pay property taxes.

That's the thing: I don't want to tell others how to live. It's mostly them telling me to pay for their wars and healthcare. I just don't want to be a slave. However, telling everyone to do everything voluntarily is apparently coercive?

Do you believe there should be a border and a defence force?

That should be up to the individual states who have borders. It's not a federal issue.

So if your state has voted for having a border and a defence force you are ok with it.

I would be against it. Immigrants only add economic benefit unless they only come to feed off entitlements. In a constitutional America, I would just move to another state if I didn't like the law.

Correct me if I am wrong but ALL US states support the idea of a border and a defence force.  Where are you going to move to?

[I.Goldstein]

...snip...

Let's see what happens when I don't pay property taxes.

That's the thing: I don't want to tell others how to live. It's mostly them telling me to pay for their wars and healthcare. I just don't want to be a slave. However, telling everyone to do everything voluntarily is apparently coercive?

Do you believe there should be a border and a defence force?

That should be up to the individual states who have borders. It's not a federal issue.

So if your state has voted for having a border and a defence force you are ok with it.

I would be against it. Immigrants only add economic benefit unless they only come to feed off entitlements. In a constitutional America, I would just move to another state if I didn't like the law.

Correct me if I am wrong but ALL US states support the idea of a border and a defence force.  Where are you going to move to?

There will be a good portion of the populace that won't, we can band together and change a state to one without border restrictions. If we can't even do that much, we're not a significant movement and thus not notable. The defense forces must have eliminated all issues with our borders in your case.

[Hawker]

...snip...
There will be a good portion of the populace that won't, we can band together and change a state to one without border restrictions. If we can't even do that much, we're not a significant movement and thus not notable. The defense forces must have eliminated all issues with our borders in your case.

At least you know where you stand.  There is nothing to stop you all moving to Arizona right now and having the border dismantled.  That won't happen - there is no American constituency for that.

[I.Goldstein]

...snip...
There will be a good portion of the populace that won't, we can band together and change a state to one without border restrictions. If we can't even do that much, we're not a significant movement and thus not notable. The defense forces must have eliminated all issues with our borders in your case.

At least you know where you stand.  There is nothing to stop you all moving to Arizona right now and having the border dismantled.  That won't happen - there is no American constituency for that.

http://freestateproject.org/

The closest thing we have to what I have stated.

: ) Also, thank you, Hawker.

[BitterTea]

What you can't do is tell other people how they should live.

You're such a fucking hypocrite! That's exactly what you do when you threaten to put people in jail for not funding your wars!

[Hawker]

What you can't do is tell other people how they should live.

You're such a fucking hypocrite! That's exactly what you do when you threaten to put people in jail for not funding your wars!

With respect, I don't have any wars.  You must be mixing me up with someone else.

[BitterTea]

With respect, I don't have any wars.  You must be mixing me up with someone else.

You said "we" are the government. Why are you not also accountable for their wars? Sounds like "we" are the government only when it is convenient for your rationalizations.

[Hawker]

...snip...

http://freestateproject.org/

The closest thing we have to what I have stated.

: ) Also, thank you, Hawker.

Nice idea.  I love New Hampshire in summer

With respect, I don't have any wars.  You must be mixing me up with someone else.

You said "we" are the government. Why are you not also accountable for their wars? Sounds like "we" are the government only when it is convenient for your rationalizations.

I don't think I said "we" as I am not American.

What I said is that if you want to implement your interpretation of the US constitution, that affects other people and you need to justify it to them.  

Do you not agree with that?  

[BitterTea]

I don't think I said "we" as I am not American.

What I said is that if you want to implement your interpretation of the US constitution, that affects other people and you need to justify it to them. 

Do you not agree with that? 

I want to implement nothing.

I merely object to the idea that a piece of paper, written and signed by men long dead, to which I never agreed, should be binding upon me.

[Hawker]

I don't think I said "we" as I am not American.

What I said is that if you want to implement your interpretation of the US constitution, that affects other people and you need to justify it to them. 

Do you not agree with that? 

I want to implement nothing.

I merely object to the idea that a piece of paper, written and signed by men long dead, to which I never agreed, should be binding upon me.

Its a bit like being born rich or poor.  In an ideal world, you'd get to choose first but sadly, you pop out and are lumbered with your skin colour, nationality, culture and a lot of other stuff.

Look on the bright side...there are worse places to have been born that the US.

[I.Goldstein]

I don't think I said "we" as I am not American.

What I said is that if you want to implement your interpretation of the US constitution, that affects other people and you need to justify it to them. 

Do you not agree with that? 

I want to implement nothing.

I merely object to the idea that a piece of paper, written and signed by men long dead, to which I never agreed, should be binding upon me.

...skin colour, nationality, culture and a lot of other stuff.

Collectivist terms. How ironic.