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Author Topic: Health Care (split from I am very confused.)  (Read 3803 times)
Red
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October 22, 2011, 05:31:17 PM
 #41

You are quoting out of context to prove your point. You need to quote the entire story. Here is another quote from the same article:
...Studies of autopsies have shown that doctors seriously misdiagnose fatal illnesses about 20 percent of the time...

What point do you think I was making? How is needing to hold Doctors responsible for being bad at their job, and different from holding pilots responsible for being bad at theirs? I'm clearly saying, "Some doctors are good at doctoring. Some doctors suck at doctoring. You serve no one by making them go to a doctor who sucks. Even if it's for free." I'm pretty sure the head of medicare/medicaid agrees with me.

You cannot both require me to relieve someone of responsibility for their own actions and compel me to respect their opinion. There has got to be a fancy Latin name for that logic fallacy? Anyone?
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I.Goldstein
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October 22, 2011, 05:32:47 PM
 #42

Risk without accountability fallacy.
rainingbitcoins
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October 22, 2011, 05:43:50 PM
 #43

Protips: health insurance and private health system SUCKS

Saudi Arabian crown prince dies at New York hospital

It's funny how headlines tend to conflict with the "common wisdom". When you have all the money in the world, and your life is at stake. Where do you go for the best medical treatment? Europe!

And here we get to the heart of what you believe. It doesn't matter if 45,000 people die as long as a wealthy prince can get the best care in the world.

All those countries that insure their whole populations for half the per capita price? Fuck 'em. I like it here where I can pay extra to ensure the poor die.
Red
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October 22, 2011, 06:07:50 PM
 #44

And here we get to the heart of what you believe. It doesn't matter if 45,000 people die as long as a wealthy prince can get the best care in the world.

All those countries that insure their whole populations for half the per capita price? Fuck 'em. I like it here where I can pay extra to ensure the poor die.

You almost have it right.

All those countries that insure their whole populations don't report how many died because their care was substandard to known best practices. Quite frankly, the medical establishment here discovered that problem (in the US) and it shocked the fuck out of them. Some common medical procedures had a 30% different mortality rate among different facilities. However, they all thought their rate was the common best-practice rate. Other countries later discovered the same thing.

Choosing a competent doctor is a life critical choice that I wish to retain the right to. Relinquish your right to that if you choose. If you wish to sacrifice your own care to save a buck, you have the freedom to do so. Your bad decisions do not make themselves my responsibilities.

Quite frankly I'm appalled if 45,000 people die unnecessarily. However, I don't believe that to be the case. We do have a safety net in this country. I see it work everyday. (see above) It provides health CARE like it should. It doesn't provide health INSURANCE which would be STUPID! (see above for my treatise) Yes, the existing safety net costs all of us too much. (see above for my other treatise)

But nothing you suggest seems even an attempt to solve that problem. You just seem to be advocating more steps down the road toward Greece.

Health care for all is a solvable problem. However, it does require everyone to attempt to be responsible. You cannot both require me to relieve someone of responsibility for their own actions and compel me to respect their opinion.

bitleaker
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October 22, 2011, 06:14:23 PM
 #45

You keep changing accounts Atlas. First Ragnar, now I.Goldstein?

Chavez can't get medical care in the United States or hardly anywhere else in the first world for that matter. He's a bad figure. He's not going to Cuba for medical care because it's amazing. He's going because his country's is poor and anywhere else could get him killed. Cuba does not offer the best medical care in the world just because Chavez has his doctor there.
Actually you'll find that Cuba has a healthcare system and health infrastructure that would put lots of 'rich' countries to shame. Also, regarding that Cuba is the only place he can go, that is incorrect. The UK has been a safe haven for 'undesirables' to receive healthcare for years. The UK has been a safe-haven and ally to many a 'dictator'.
rainingbitcoins
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October 22, 2011, 06:17:34 PM
 #46

Quote
Quite frankly I'm appalled if 45,000 people die unnecessarily. However, I don't believe that to be the case.

I already linked the study that shows they did right here in this thread in response to one of your posts.

Quote
We do have a safety net in this country. I see it work everyday. (see above) It provides health CARE like it should. It doesn't provide health INSURANCE which would be STUPID! (see above for my treatise) Yes, the existing safety net costs all of us too much. (see above for my other treatise)

But nothing you suggest seems even an attempt to solve that problem. You just seem to be advocating more steps down the road toward Greece.

What part of half-price do you not understand here?



(Also note that American health care costs have gone up significantly even since 2008)

I'd imagine that if all of those countries had this horrible substandard care you keep rambling on about, they'd have lower life expectancies than us, but they don't. They're higher.
I.Goldstein
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October 22, 2011, 06:20:21 PM
 #47

It seems you're right but not at competitive prices. It's amazing what oil exports can do.

Also, to address rainingbitcoins, they'll be healthy for now; however, the systems aren't financially sustainable.
rainingbitcoins
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October 22, 2011, 06:24:09 PM
 #48

Also, to address rainingbitcoins, they'll be healthy for now; however, the systems aren't financially sustainable.

You know the U.K. has had the NHS since WWII and Canada has had UHC since the early '60s, right?
I.Goldstein
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October 22, 2011, 06:25:37 PM
 #49

Also, to address rainingbitcoins, they'll be healthy for now; however, the systems aren't financially sustainable.

You know the U.K. has had the NHS since WWII and Canada has had UHC since the early '60s, right?
Heh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday
becoin
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October 22, 2011, 06:26:16 PM
 #50

Risk without accountability fallacy.
Speaking about accountability, do you know that Cuba has one of the highest (if not the highest) life expectancy rates in both Americas? Why average lifespan in Cuba is the same (or slightly better) than the average lifespan in the U.S. and how is that corresponding to your statement about the superiority of current U.S. medicare system?

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I.Goldstein
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October 22, 2011, 06:28:17 PM
 #51

Risk without accountability fallacy.
Speaking about accountability, do you know that Cuba has one of the highest (if not the highest) life expectancy rates in both Americas? Why average lifespan in Cuba is the same (or slightly better) than the average lifespan in the U.S. and how is that corresponding to your statement about the superiority of current U.S. medicare systems?

Yes because they have massive oil reserves. They have disposable income to throw at a socialized healthcare system that runs at a loss. The US doesn't have such capacity.
rainingbitcoins
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October 22, 2011, 06:30:09 PM
 #52

Also, to address rainingbitcoins, they'll be healthy for now; however, the systems aren't financially sustainable.

You know the U.K. has had the NHS since WWII and Canada has had UHC since the early '60s, right?
Heh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

And this has to do with the fact that they currently pay half of what we do how exactly? We even pay more in public funds than they do and their whole damn system is public.

Quote
They have disposable income to throw at a socialized healthcare system that runs at a loss.

Cuba pays $1200 per capita to insure their people. Their life expectancy is tied with the U.S. at 78.3 years.
Red
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October 22, 2011, 06:32:45 PM
 #53

I think I misunderstood your position. You don't believe health care should be a basic entitlement and do believe that only people who can afford healthcare should get it based on their willingness to work for that luxury. You do believe the healthcare in Cuba is flawed because it's free and don't believe expensive healthcare in the U.S. suffers that same problem. Correct or no?

Either you are conflating me with someone else, or you haven't bother to read what I've written above. Perhaps something more that three lines is TL;DR.

But to clarify, I think the concept of entitlement is one of the two root causes of the problem. (See above) I don't think healthcare is a luxury. Healthcare is a service. The people who provide the service are not slaves nor are they beneath us. We have no right to compel them to work if they don't feel they are being adequately rewarded for their time. Currently, many doctors are leaving their field. They find their time better spent in other pursuits. If it continues that would cause healthcare to become a luxury. That would be a bad thing.

Clearly, I explained why US healthcare is too expensive (see above). And why that is a horribly stupid thing we should all be working to fix. It is fixable.

I don't think a mentioned Cuba at all. I did mention Europe. Both should make decisions as they see fit and be held responsible for their decisions. In Germany doctors have protested in the streets about harsh working conditions and low compensation. (see Frontline documentary on universal healthcare) Maybe Cubans are awesome. I have no idea.

The only thing I said was, I don't think "universal healthcare" guarantees "optimal healthcare". And when folks in my family get sick, I demand optimal healthcare. You are welcome to not make the same demands for yourself. But you may not deny that choice to me. I am Pro-Choice. You seem to be Pro-Meh. "You get what you get but at least we all get it together!"

Any questions?
I.Goldstein
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October 22, 2011, 06:34:13 PM
 #54

Also, to address rainingbitcoins, they'll be healthy for now; however, the systems aren't financially sustainable.

You know the U.K. has had the NHS since WWII and Canada has had UHC since the early '60s, right?
Heh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

And this has to do with the fact that they currently pay half of what we do how exactly? We even pay more in public funds than they do and their whole damn system is public.

Quote
They have disposable income to throw at a socialized healthcare system that runs at a loss.

Cuba pays $1200 per capita to insure their people. Their life expectancy is tied with the U.S. at 78.3 years.

I am not contesting anything of what you are saying. The American system sucks. All of the systems suck. They are all horribly inefficient and customer service is non-existent. If I want luxuries and extra care, I have to pay an excessive amount to get what I desire in the name of entitlement. My main problem is people can't pay fair market value for care they desire and at the time they want it. There's horrible wait-lists and it's all one-size-fits-all. It looks good on paper but they all leave a lot to be desired.

Cuba can pay whatever is necessary. Again, they have oil reserves.
rainingbitcoins
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October 22, 2011, 06:40:43 PM
 #55

I am not contesting anything of what you are saying. The American system sucks. All of the systems suck. They are all horribly in efficient and customer service is non-existent. If I want luxuries and extra care, I have to pay an excessive amount to get what I desire in the name of entitlement. My main problem is people can't pay fair market value for care they desire and at the time they want it. There's horrible wait-lists and it's all one-size fits all. It looks good on paper but they all leave a lot to be desired.

Even if no system is perfectly efficient, it should be apparent from the data that the most efficient systems have the most government involvement. And the least efficient system is the one clogged with private insurance and out-of-pocket spending.

Wait times in UHC countries are comparable to the U.S., as well. Some slightly higher, some slightly lower, but all in the same ballpark.
I.Goldstein
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October 22, 2011, 06:43:52 PM
 #56

I am not contesting anything of what you are saying. The American system sucks. All of the systems suck. They are all horribly in efficient and customer service is non-existent. If I want luxuries and extra care, I have to pay an excessive amount to get what I desire in the name of entitlement. My main problem is people can't pay fair market value for care they desire and at the time they want it. There's horrible wait-lists and it's all one-size fits all. It looks good on paper but they all leave a lot to be desired.

Even if no system is perfectly efficient, it should be apparent from the data that the most efficient systems have the most government involvement. And the least efficient system is the one clogged with private insurance and out-of-pocket spending.

Wait times in UHC countries are comparable to the U.S., as well. Some slightly higher, some slightly lower, but all in the same ballpark.
The US has an extreme amount of government-involvement. The regulations, subsidies and provisions going towards the medical industry are of the same capacity as Europe.

I am just making one thing clear: the United States does not have private healthcare. It hasn't had it for a long time.

We do have the some choice in which government-provisioned corporation we can go to for insurance. We can fortunately choose somebody who meets our desires and accommodates our schedule albeit with a higher cost.

We all don't have to use cesspool public clinics that take weeks to get an appointment with -- yet.
rainingbitcoins
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October 22, 2011, 06:46:43 PM
 #57

We do have a mixture of public and private services, yes. So why blame the public part of that equation when countries with entirely public systems pay so much less?
Red
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October 22, 2011, 06:49:23 PM
 #58

Also, to address rainingbitcoins, they'll be healthy for now; however, the systems aren't financially sustainable.

You know the U.K. has had the NHS since WWII and Canada has had UHC since the early '60s, right?

You realize that the U.K. recently had a whole government upheaval based upon health care solvency concerns. Hello, Mr Cameron. Here are a few random links from the first google page that came up. There seem to be some current issues.

http://www.sourcewire.com/releases/rel_display.php?relid=67094
http://www.ournhsinshropshireandtelford.nhs.uk/viewpoint/110224-capsticks.aspx
http://www.hsj.co.uk/news/workforce/dh-seeks-solvency-assurances-from-nhs-employers/5014860.article

Canada in in the midst of health care reform as well. More random google results.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/08/10/pol-cma-report.html

The majority of respondents said they are not getting good value for money, especially compared with European countries, and they based that assessment on long waiting times for the care they need, the report said.

Discussions over private versus public health care were frequent, the report said, and support for a publicly funded system was widespread. Turnbull noted, however, that some expressed openness to private sector assistance to help alleviate some of the immediate pressures on the public system.

Participants in the dialogue agreed that Canadians need to take responsibility for their own health, but they said there is a need for "healthy public policy" to help people make healthy decisions. Better health education and support for economically disadvantaged groups were among the suggestions made and some said tax incentives should be introduced to encourage healthier choices.
I.Goldstein
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October 22, 2011, 06:50:27 PM
 #59

We do have a mixture of public and private services, yes. So why blame the public part of that equation when countries with entirely public systems pay so much less?

Entirely public systems pay less but they aren't necessarily more efficient. Universal systems increase the cost of luxuries and private care that has desires that are not met by public services. It deprives liberty from people who usually pay for their care. It deprives them of services that they may otherwise be able to afford.

I like my extra dermatology services and rational psychiatry that doesn't try to diagnose me with a checklist. I want care suited to my individual desires at affordable, competitive prices. Not government bureaucrats and corporate lobbyists.
becoin
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October 22, 2011, 06:56:50 PM
 #60

Yes because they have massive oil reserves. They have disposable income to throw at a socialized healthcare system that runs at a loss. The US doesn't have such capacity.
You're wrong. Cuba doesn't have oil reserves. Venezuela has.
The U.S. have vast oil reserves in different parts of the world. Now even Iraq, the second largest oil reserves after Saudi Arabia, is a U.S. colony! Lets not forget that Americans pay the cheapest gas prices at the gas station among all developed countries.

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