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Author Topic: Bitcoin Failure is likely  (Read 20458 times)
Jered Kenna (TradeHill)
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March 28, 2011, 04:44:01 PM
 #41

The Supreme Court is a branch of government. Are you saying that the Federal Reserve Bank is a branch of government?

I'd say they're a branch of the state. Normally the work "government" is reserved to the executive branch of the state. The central bank, as the supreme court, is independent from government, yet part of the state.

Don't they call it(supreme court) part of the Judicial Branch??? As in the 3 branches of government. Executive, legislative and Judicial?

I see your point though.

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benjamindees
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March 28, 2011, 05:05:42 PM
 #42

It's obvious that most of you aren't Americans.  We don't have a parliamentary system, so there is no "government" separate from the state.  In common parlance, "government" means everything from the courts to the fire department to the DMV.  Though, technically, the courts are supposed to be independent of the government.

And the US isn't actually a government or a state anyways, it's a trade federation.  So it's really more like the opposite of a government.  It's an accelerant.

It's all complicated by the fact that elected officials basically just do whatever the hell they want with no regard for anything.

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March 28, 2011, 05:47:30 PM
 #43


And the US isn't actually a government or a state anyways, it's a trade federation.  So it's really more like the opposite of a government.  It's an accelerant.

If you had a high school civic teacher, s/he should be fired.

The United States is a Federated Republic, each state chooses it's own structure, but most are either a federated republic directly copied from the federal level, or commonwealth republics.

The US is a far cry from a trade federation.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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March 28, 2011, 05:51:52 PM
 #44

Though, technically, the courts are supposed to be independent of the government.

I hate to pile on, but no. The judiciary is the third branch of the US government, alongside the executive and legislative branches.

This space intentionally left blank.
carp
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March 28, 2011, 06:44:34 PM
 #45

Why don't you try to make all those changes to bitcoin you advocate and see what happens.

Uh sorry vladimir, who were you talking to? I don't advocate making any changes at all... bc rocks as it is!


That would be whoever's not happy with early adopters hoarding bitcoins and wants to turn bitcoin into permainflationary currency.

Actually.... the more I read discussions of this, the more I think I like permainflation. Not for bitcoin, of course, but in general for currency. The thing is, I have started to see bitcoin as more commodity than currency. Much like gold, its a good way to hold value, better than gold in that its far easier to transfer but....

It seems like you really want multiple vehicles for various purposes. Bitcoin, gold etc is great for holding value, even going up in value over time. It encourages hoarding, or "saving" to use a more positive term.

On the other hand, something that has a value that floats and encourages hoarding is less desireable for a store. When buying and selling goods etc, you really don't need or even particualarly need something like that. I think its more something whose value stays relatively constant with that of the goods that its used for.... it doesn't matter whether its inflation or deflation, you can't re-price an entire supermarket every few hours.

That said, bitcoin has some obvious gaps, 10 mins per block, etc. Seems to me that it would almost make sense for an inflationary currencty (not that I am sure what sort of formula it would want to use or would even make sense) to compliment bitcoin. Something that you know is going to inflate so rather than keep it, you get small amounts to use as needed.

Much like someone who keeps a hoard of gold still needs to trade small amounts of that gold for dollars to go shopping, but, doesn't use cash as a savings instrument (since its not very good at that).

Just my thoughts now, my thinking on this changes every day or two so take it with a grain of salt.
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March 28, 2011, 06:55:22 PM
 #46

Newcomers could always just "undervalue" the early adopters' bitcoins, no?

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March 28, 2011, 06:58:07 PM
 #47

Newcomers could always just "undervalue" the early adopters' bitcoins, no?
Possible in theory if the newcomers are the large majority and dirt poor.
benjamindees
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March 28, 2011, 07:27:35 PM
 #48

I hate to pile on, but no. The judiciary is the third branch of the US government, alongside the executive and legislative branches.

Okay I misspoke;  they (the Federal courts at least) are effectively independent as a separate branch.  I see no distinction but I suppose you are correct.

Regardless, I stand by my assertion that there is no evidence of the US having governed anything, ever, having been conceived and created totally without the means or motivation to do so.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
river
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April 01, 2011, 05:51:22 AM
 #49

After reading a lot of these posts, and the arguments supporting them, I am really beginning to think that a portion of these 'new members' are government plants to attempt to either confuse, and/or stop support for bitcoin threw subtle manipulation of other confused or hesitant peoples.

It really sounds to me like a lot of these arguments are truly designed to intentionally scare as many people away from anything, that is not government regulated, as possible.

I think all the power, and control, freak governments and bankers of the world have learned about bitcoin and simply figured .. 'eh .. it's only in it's early stages .. easy to destroy with just a little 'mis-information' .. send a few loyal (but stupid) volunteers to scare people away from it and be done with it.'

just my opinion in having looked at the overall actual content of a lot of these 'discussions'.

What's your opinion?
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April 01, 2011, 05:56:37 AM
 #50


What's your opinion?

I am of the opinion that their opinion are genuine even though they are wrong.

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April 01, 2011, 07:30:35 AM
 #51

What's your opinion?
That too many bitcoin supporters wear tin foil hats and understand a lot less about economics than they think they do.
river
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April 01, 2011, 08:14:19 AM
 #52

Take it your a math and economics wiz from community college   Cheesy

OH .. ya .. my tinfoil hats in the shop .. so I'm wearing my rubber spidy undies with the velcro strap today instead ..  Cheesy
Anonymous
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April 01, 2011, 11:27:19 AM
 #53

Its fun seeing control freaks rage. All I need to know where someone stands is their view on what would happen if I refuse to do something they think is a fantastic plan for humanity.

 Cheesy

markm
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April 01, 2011, 11:48:16 AM
 #54

I have been watching several alternate bitcoin-based currencies start up, and so far the people behind them have all felt that even if there were fifty transactions per block every block paying 50 coins per block is stsill a very high transaction fee.

They have also all had problems with the idea of handing over goods to people who aren't willing to actually back the currency but instead just want to generate it and spend it. Miners, in other words.

Thus so far all are taking the approach of using private "friend to friend" networks for the first few years to develop and establish their currencies, as they feel this gives them the best ability to actually back the currency.

Basically if they are the only issuers of their currency then they can see to it that they only issue it in situations where they are in fact willing to back it with goods.

They do not want to be in the position of saying "we will give you goods in return for coins some stranger generates with a GPU". Instead they are aiming to be in the position of saying "we will give you good in return for coins that we issue".

In fact the reason each interest-group is creating its own currency is because they do not want to have to redeem other people's such currencies over which they have no control as to the amount issued and the value being provided by those who are issuing it.

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MoonShadow
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April 01, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
 #55

After reading a lot of these posts, and the arguments supporting them, I am really beginning to think that a portion of these 'new members' are government plants to attempt to either confuse, and/or stop support for bitcoin threw subtle manipulation of other confused or hesitant peoples.


I've been thinking along similar lines.  Considering that I once worked for these bastards, I certainly wouldn't put it past them to hire trolls.  They are probably relatively cheap.  Hell, they might even be outsourcing to India.

I've been busy lately.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
carp
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April 01, 2011, 09:59:27 PM
 #56

I have been watching several alternate bitcoin-based currencies start up...

More power to them.

Indeed. Fiat money come and go, gold stays. "We want to be only ones to mint controlfreakcoins" will come and go, bitcoin will stay.


I find myself wanting to agree with the people who say it could, or is even likely to fail. I don't have that much in bitcoin right now, but I am young and have a normal income so, putting a small investment into a long shot risky bet is not something I am adverse to... so even saying its a risk and even a likely one, I am still comfortable using it and keeping some amount of quantity of it.... maybe even getting more...

That said, the idea that anything COULD fail is true. However, bitcoin only fails if we all stop using it. Even if there is a massive run, everyone runs on it, and the market crashes to .01 usd/btc... the majority of miners stop running it...total crash.

Even if/when that day comes, as long as one person, like yourself, keeps his miners running, the difficulty adjusts and, you keep getting these now worth less coins.... but... the whole thing can bootstrap from that all over again.

Of course, with decreasing generation, if nobody is passing transactions, it eventually means not even a worthless btc income, making trying to carry the system through a major crash a rather thankless job (unless you ended up with such a large hoard that it was worth reviving the system)

I guess all this is true of any currency but, the open and independent nature of bitcoin makes it seem like, it really does stand the best chance of still "being around", no matter what ends up happening to the value and current markets.
river
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April 01, 2011, 10:12:43 PM
 #57

carp

you have to remember that Fiat currencies are always forced on you by men with guns and prison sentences.

People have never used them willingly, ever.

The Central banks that have always controlled every nation on earth have always made nation force the people to accept Fiat and at terminal cost.

Do you really believe that after 10 of thousands of years of humans using gold and silver (precious commodities) as currencies, or straight barter/trade, that they willingly changed to Fiat paper garbage money with no value at all ... no .. Asia, Europe, America, etc .. every single continent in history literally shot peoples families in front of them and stuck them in jail to force the public to use their currencies.

If the intelligent people of earth get a choice, they will always use alternative means for trade that can not be tracked by governments.  It's human nature to want your rights and freedoms.  The good ones will simply take them.

Choice in bitcoins in an option for the strong to start with, let the sheep follow later, when once again, they don't get a choice.
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April 01, 2011, 10:21:51 PM
 #58

Its fun seeing control freaks rage. All I need to know where someone stands is their view on what would happen if I refuse to do something they think is a fantastic plan for humanity.

 Cheesy


+1

(gasteve on IRC) Does your website accept cash? https://bitpay.com
Anonymous
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April 01, 2011, 11:36:15 PM
 #59

After reading a lot of these posts, and the arguments supporting them, I am really beginning to think that a portion of these 'new members' are government plants to attempt to either confuse, and/or stop support for bitcoin threw subtle manipulation of other confused or hesitant peoples.


I've been thinking along similar lines.  Considering that I once worked for these bastards, I certainly wouldn't put it past them to hire trolls.  They are probably relatively cheap.  Hell, they might even be outsourcing to India.

I've been busy lately.
me ago i think

Its a very much a possibility. http://www.fmsasg.com/News/Content/FMSInQTel.asp

The red flags would have gone up a long time ago i think. Smiley

Anonymous
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April 01, 2011, 11:49:49 PM
 #60

Also this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

This thread looks very much like one of these operations imo.
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