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Author Topic: [NEM] Public auditing of stakeholder list  (Read 19992 times)
ShawnLeary
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March 05, 2014, 04:09:25 AM
 #101

This is awesome!  AND, if we are putting this much effort into invalidating fraud, just IMAGINE the kind of time, effort, and purpose the devs are putting into this mission!!

Is it too soon to get a NEM tattoo?

Keep up the good work.

"We have the power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine
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mikesbmw
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March 05, 2014, 10:22:27 AM
 #102

I fully understand that there is an uproar because of the "fraudsters" who try to buy 20+ stakes.

But as is clearly shown in DaFockBro's posts and for anyone to read in the various threads, it was allowed to have multiple buy-ins. No need to explain those buy-ins: it was allowed.

The problem is: how many stakes is considered to many?

I think it is best for Utopianfuture to make a FINAL STATEMENT about who is at risk (hard numbers, no deviation). Regarding the quotes by DaFockBro, I think it should be anyone with 5-6+ stakes and that the surplus should be refunded (if possible).

Oh and should you wonder: I registered for two stakes (Mikesbmw and Flepper).


Please keep it sane people.

NXT: Next Generation of Cryptocurrency http://nxtcrypto.org
NEM:New Economy Movement http://www.ournem.com/
Xpedite
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March 05, 2014, 11:18:25 AM
 #103

And then there is this one:
He is marked with a Y  based upon this post:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=440185.msg4865396#msg4865396


However, I assumed he would be removed base upon the quote below:

You skipped me in the other thread and I haven't received a response.

EDIT:

I wasn't sure if this is what you were looking for: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=441041.new#new

I was at spot 1074 in the previous thread but it seems like there is another person on there (1074).



If you did not reply in the registration thread (with proof of payment or promotion), then you did not reserve a stake spot.

Yes I did - a Dutch promotion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=441041.new#new

But I'm still not on the list. Are you kidding me  Angry

@Utopianfuture : FYI This guy changed his original post into a scam warning on the dutch forums.  He complained that you were not responding to his questions. I have replied to this and explained he did not qualify since the conditions were not met in the first place. Here is the post where I replied to him: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=441041.0




Thanks a lot. He did not seem to read the front page carefully.
I know you guys are being really busy but I assume this has been overlooked:

samysamy1 is not in the "refund list" but he is still in the stakeholder list. As far as I understood he did not qualify.
tron666
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March 05, 2014, 12:38:34 PM
 #104

HERE ARE SOME THOUGHTS AFTER 5 HOURS OF AUDITION

1. I don't think that fraudsters should be refunded. Their money should be spent for NEM promotion.

2. I found two more big fraudsters and I need about 3 hours more to match txids with names. We need more people doing audition, or bigger reward for auditors.

3. I checked about about 50 random transactions and found 5 fraudsters and 4 of them are big which means there are roughly 10% of fraudsters.

Totally disagree.  You can't outright steal someone's money.  Send it back to where it came from.

Did someone already find your sockpuppets?  Grin

Totally uncalled for.  Maybe someone should check the auditors accounts.  I have no sockpuppets.   

Anyway, do you really think it's fine to steal someone's money?

yes, refunding is the best way.
The rule is very clear. They waste our time to audit. They should be punished. I agree their money should be spent for NEM promotion, and some of their money should be rewarded to the  audit people.

I agree, sockpuppets have generated a lot of work for the community.  Im not saying they should "steal" their money but there should be a penalty.
After all they did try to steal our money.

CCO   MNVPaetsHpxr97mRDqqPuV6PQoSVbFgPVE    NEM-test  TBZXHE-TD6AO6-PHSFZL-SZ7MWS-JEEI7C-EFCUC2-7Y7V
LTC    LcAQUMNhqDYesRRYMxMAsE5rhAAseDMDp7
XPM   AHDtLd993oYke4Zrm5dDG5WGtgyaUaMTCK
NXT   16706883867271464458
DOGE DBGiKBD1HZ8yfTdTcX5m8T7mY4X4cUVnEz
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March 05, 2014, 12:39:38 PM
 #105

HERE ARE SOME THOUGHTS AFTER 5 HOURS OF AUDITION

1. I don't think that fraudsters should be refunded. Their money should be spent for NEM promotion.

2. I found two more big fraudsters and I need about 3 hours more to match txids with names. We need more people doing audition, or bigger reward for auditors.

3. I checked about about 50 random transactions and found 5 fraudsters and 4 of them are big which means there are roughly 10% of fraudsters.

Totally disagree.  You can't outright steal someone's money.  Send it back to where it came from.

Did someone already find your sockpuppets?  Grin

Totally uncalled for.  Maybe someone should check the auditors accounts.  I have no sockpuppets.   

Anyway, do you really think it's fine to steal someone's money?

yes, refunding is the best way.
The rule is very clear. They waste our time to audit. They should be punished. I agree their money should be spent for NEM promotion, and some of their money should be rewarded to the  audit people.

I agree, sockpuppets have generated a lot of work for the community.  Im not saying they should "steal" their money but there should be a penalty.
After all they did try to steal our money.

The penalty is not being part of NEM!
If and when NEM becomes big they will be biting their asses Wink

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March 05, 2014, 12:51:56 PM
 #106

I fully understand that there is an uproar because of the "fraudsters" who try to buy 20+ stakes.

But as is clearly shown in DaFockBro's posts and for anyone to read in the various threads, it was allowed to have multiple buy-ins. No need to explain those buy-ins: it was allowed.

The problem is: how many stakes is considered to many?

I think it is best for Utopianfuture to make a FINAL STATEMENT about who is at risk (hard numbers, no deviation). Regarding the quotes by DaFockBro, I think it should be anyone with 5-6+ stakes and that the surplus should be refunded (if possible).

Oh and should you wonder: I registered for two stakes (Mikesbmw and Flepper).


Please keep it sane people.

We focus on groups of related accounts with more than 5 stakes with most accounts belonging to group 3 activity. It has been discussed in the main thread before, our effort would be more well spent that way. It is also probably best compromise. Surplus over 5 stakes will be refunded.

About the size of bounties, it is set to be consistent with other type of rewards for different development activities such as helping with fundraising, websites, swarm team, wiki, tester, bug finding, coding etc. To be honest, it makes no sense to me if some of you trying to hunt people with more shares down so that you can personally increase your own shares. If you make an effort to find multi-accounts, do it because you care about NEM's fundraising egalitarian principle. If you find it not worth doing, then don't.

Public auditing is necessary part of the process to create trust and transparency for NEM. It will be done even without finding any sockpuppet. Similarly, population statistics will be done in any case. All are part of the package.   

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March 05, 2014, 01:26:58 PM
 #107

HERE ARE SOME THOUGHTS AFTER 5 HOURS OF AUDITION

1. I don't think that fraudsters should be refunded. Their money should be spent for NEM promotion.

2. I found two more big fraudsters and I need about 3 hours more to match txids with names. We need more people doing audition, or bigger reward for auditors.

3. I checked about about 50 random transactions and found 5 fraudsters and 4 of them are big which means there are roughly 10% of fraudsters.

Totally disagree.  You can't outright steal someone's money.  Send it back to where it came from.

Did someone already find your sockpuppets?  Grin

Totally uncalled for.  Maybe someone should check the auditors accounts.  I have no sockpuppets.   

Anyway, do you really think it's fine to steal someone's money?

yes, refunding is the best way.
The rule is very clear. They waste our time to audit. They should be punished. I agree their money should be spent for NEM promotion, and some of their money should be rewarded to the  audit people.

I agree, sockpuppets have generated a lot of work for the community.  Im not saying they should "steal" their money but there should be a penalty.
After all they did try to steal our money.

The penalty is not being part of NEM!
If and when NEM becomes big they will be biting their asses Wink

great!  Grin
fraudster will get 0  stakes

NEM's auditing may be a good example for other coins. Good one, if there is not left some sockpuppet with his 20 stakes Smiley
Because many are saying that there is lot of work to do, maybe you need Auditing part 2.

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March 05, 2014, 01:34:39 PM
 #108

Take your time here. We all want this project to be perfect Smiley

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March 05, 2014, 01:35:28 PM
 #109

Why there are still people listed with to stakes for one account?

thread 1

64   mingophoria
203 mingophoria

139  linfujun
602  linjufun

168  rajc
765  rajc

thread 2

2187   meyns
2189   meyns


utopianfuture
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March 05, 2014, 01:38:26 PM
 #110

Why there are still people listed with to stakes for one account?

thread 1

64   mingophoria
203 mingophoria

139  linfujun
602  linjufun

168  rajc
765  rajc

thread 2

2187   meyns
2189   meyns



Easter eggs ? all duplicate names will be deleted.

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mikesbmw
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March 05, 2014, 01:48:27 PM
 #111

We focus on groups of related accounts with more than 5 stakes with most accounts belonging to group 3 activity. It has been discussed in the main thread before, our effort would be more well spent that way. It is also probably best compromise. Surplus over 5 stakes will be refunded.

About the size of bounties, it is set to be consistent with other type of rewards for different development activities such as helping with fundraising, websites, swarm team, wiki, tester, bug finding, coding etc. To be honest, it makes no sense to me if some of you trying to hunt people with more shares down so that you can personally increase your own shares. If you make an effort to find multi-accounts, do it because you care about NEM's fundraising egalitarian principle. If you find it not worth doing, then don't.

Public auditing is necessary part of the process to create trust and transparency for NEM. It will be done even without finding any sockpuppet. Similarly, population statistics will be done in any case. All are part of the package.   


Sorry, must have missed that bit in the main thread...
Okay, so no problems then.

NXT: Next Generation of Cryptocurrency http://nxtcrypto.org
NEM:New Economy Movement http://www.ournem.com/
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March 05, 2014, 04:41:20 PM
 #112



for your mom? your mom must be fifty years old and know very well about crypto.  Shocked
but sorry, it's against NEM's spirit.
if you get a 2nd stake. ok, fine. i have to tell you my mom and dad also know about crypto and they both said NEM will be a nice coin!
BTW, i also have ten brothers and sisters. forgive my big family, we all knows about NEM!  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


not sure where you are from? you just bias like a asian. my mom is a senior accountant for a import and export company and she has been following digital currency for some years. 

as the rule below, I can buy a stake to my loved ones

Quote
4. How could you prevent multiple buy-ins ?

In short - We can't. Multiple buy-in will be possible with multiple accounts. We also want you to have the ability to buy a NEM stake for your loved ones so they could all join the movement. However accumulating many NEM stakes goes against NEM's principles of fairness and equality, therefore the development team reserves the right to refund you the money if an effort to unfairly accumulate NEM stakes is discovered.


I am asian too, I think people dont like the fact u called NEM a scam. Actually made a thread about it and later quietly bought not one but two stakes for yourself. U could have later publicly apologized for your mistake, that would have been decent, but you did not.

I am not saying u should not get your stakes, u have every right but  those people u warned probably missed out on a great opportunity due to your hasty accusation.

EXACTLY

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March 05, 2014, 09:49:54 PM
 #113

I did some thinking about NEM fundraising process and imo here are the rules that presents the best spirit of the NEM fundraising:

1. Everyone could reserve 1 stake in his own account so that we have 1 account/ 1 stake rule.
2. Stakeholders could reserve  1 stake for his loved one. To do that he/ she has to create an account for that person and reserve a stake from the new account.
3. Everyone could tell their friends/ relatives to reserve a NEM stake. They could even send them the money to do so as long as these friends/ relatives are interested in crypto and NEMs.

What's against NEM's fundraising spirit is that a stakeholder tried to reserve a lot of NEM stakes for himself which imo mainly because he think NEM stake could appreciate a lot in the future. In this case, we would refund you the extra stakes. As an investor, you would be welcomed to buy as many NEM as you like when NEM officially launch but reserving more than your shares of NEM at this stage is not welcomed because: 1. the first goal of the fundraising is to spread NEM widely and equally to many people so that everyone could have an equal footing when NEM platform starts; 2. the second goal of the fundraising is to build a active community around NEM that can help to develop and promote NEM platform as well its ideas. One stakeholder reserving many NEM stakes for himself do not help much in this cause, imo.

The purpose of this public auditing is to ensure the accuracy of the stakeholder list, and to create a refunding list consisting of all confirmed sock-puppet accounts. I would define a sockpuppet account as an account made solely for the purpose of reserving a NEM stake when the account owner already owns his slot of two stakes.  This process is based on the disclaimer written in fundraising announcement that "the development team reserves the right to refund you the money if an effort to unfairly accumulate NEM stakes is discovered".

There are 2 development shares reserved for the public auditing, 1 for NXT payment auditing and 1 for BTC payment auditing. The shares could be divided to many people proportionally to their contributions  

Here are some of my proposed guidelines based on above-described principles:

1. two primary investigative tools are taint analyses and account activity analyses and they should be used together.
2. all accounts opened before the fundraiser or have more than 10 posts before today should not be considered sock-puppets.
3. all accounts with paypal payment are from individuals with real identity that I verified so they are not sock-puppets.
4. not all accounts with 1 posts are sockpuppets because they can be 1. a proxy stake bought within the rule; 2. new account but not yet active.
5. If you use taint analysis, pay attention to a group of related accounts in which many are new accounts with just 1/2 post    
6. The public auditing bounties are similar to bug-finding bounties. In the latter you try to find bug in an working program; in the former you try to find sockpuppet accounts given all the public data. You do have to make careful analyses in both.
7. Be careful when you accuse of a certain account sock-puppet. I would expect solid evidences "beyond a reasonable doubt" before I refund an account. Therefore, represent your evidences of why you think certain accounts are sockpuppets in a manner that is easy to understand to all community. Including: the sock-puppet account name, the reserving post (or profile), accounts that the sockpuppets are related.  
8. I will be updating the NEM refunding list daily to reflect the number of suspected sock-puppet accounts which will be refunded.
9. All accused sock-puppet accounts have a chance to represent themselves to repeal any accusation against them.
10. The community will make the final decision when there is an dispute regarding a sockpuppet account status.

NEM public auditing will last until next Saturday. Thanks you all for joining the effort.

Here are relevant resources:

NEM stakeholder list   https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlidWok7hW0DdHVfeU1BRFVoZkJ6QTRvcjc2cTQzQ2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0
NEM stakeholder population statistics https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlidWok7hW0DdG1XYWlDemNENl9IaGR5ZHNUNTNhcmc&usp=drive_web#gid=1
Registration thread 1 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.0
Registration thread 2 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=440185.0
Refunding list https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlidWok7hW0DdG5HUC1jZWp1SXJYcEVGZjRCU0FJYUE#gid=0

A note: Many NXT transaction have a spread sheet numeric formatting problem. It is known issue with Excel as well. So any bounty hunters for the NXT share should look up for the tx id in the registration threads if the tx id in the list turns out to be incorrect.
All accounts in official list are with valid tx. id and was manually checked in registration thread before, but tx. id in the stakeholder list are not guaranteed to be correct.
Hashes with Bitcoin transactions appear to be fine.
 


i sent 80 NXt

   Date/Time   Transaction   Type   Sender   Recipient   Amount   Fee   Attachment   Confirmations
Out   26/01/2014 0:46:17   13847155466898086431   Ordinary payment   1334338925692560781   14343293611098709683   -80   -1      > 720

but i do not know where my name is indicated


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Re: [ANN] NEM :: descendant of NXT - 4 billion coins
January 25, 2014, 11:59:29 PM
Delete message  #1015
OK, I'm interested.

26/01/2014 0:46:17   13847155466898086431

Quote
Quote from: utopianfuture on January 19, 2014, 03:09:00 AM
How to join after page 50. Two ways

1. Pay a fee to join in
    
    Send 80 NXT to the address      14343293611098709683
    Send 0.008 BTC to the address  1Lk5Paws9T1YpoSeLeZT7ZeSQKW7UNq4TJ

    After you send the fee, include the transaction hash in your reply post in this thread, then you have reserved a stake spot.
    Donation is welcome but not necessary
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March 06, 2014, 02:52:43 AM
 #114

About the size of bounties, it is set to be consistent.

Ok, then I see no reason to spend more time for matching names with stakes. I'll find more fraudsters but you'll have to check their transactions and find forum nicknames.

Here is a guy with 10+ stakes http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=2616358289680037138

Another one http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=10878087732491355406
He also has lots of fake accounts for stealing money from giveaways.

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March 06, 2014, 03:35:52 AM
 #115

the name as "sfinder",he is the stakeholder of PTS,what he do is bad for NXT or NEM.

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March 06, 2014, 04:15:29 AM
 #116

Great job guys, keep it fair
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March 06, 2014, 04:28:53 AM
 #117

Sorry, just glossed thru the first few pages... do we need assistance with auditing?
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March 06, 2014, 06:29:06 AM
 #118

What's going to happen to the stakes that are going to free up?  Will there be another round of signing up or will NEM shares be split among the remaining shareholders?
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March 06, 2014, 08:22:00 AM
 #119

the name as "sfinder",he is the stakeholder of PTS,what he do is bad for NXT or NEM.
We need such guys. If the enemy join us, we will have no enemy. So I'm glad he join us.

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March 06, 2014, 09:08:09 AM
 #120

About the size of bounties, it is set to be consistent.

Ok, then I see no reason to spend more time for matching names with stakes. I'll find more fraudsters but you'll have to check their transactions and find forum nicknames.

Here is a guy with 10+ stakes http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=2616358289680037138


That is my nxt address. Although the nxt came from my account they most certainly are not all for me. I transfered nxt to my housemates accounts ( and all of our partners ) , my brother, and my friend and his wife and their chosen loved ones. It is 14 stakes altogether. I did it this way because I had a load of nxt at the time and I just managed to get them into crypto's after the promise that they can be there at the beginning of something great. Rather than having to signup, get confirmed and buy through localbitcoins.com and download a wallet etc... It would be much easier for me to send them nxt and walk them through the process of paying. I could have done the whole mixing thing but I did not feel the need to do so as I have nothing to hide. I have already had the awkward conversation with them telling them that if the community decides that we shouldn't have our stakes then they may be taken away ( didn't go down well - evil stares all round ). We agreed that if it came to it we would be willing to share our stakes 50/50 taking it down to 7. But i really hope it does not come to that.
But I will save all this for the thread for stating our cases.    

@ utopianfuture

if you give thisperson all shares I will renounce my! This is soooo unfair i have for this lie history no understanding!
Moloch do not you get it? NEM needs active members and not the grandmother and friend that you can from your ONE share what leave!!!
I bet you have even more shares! For you there is no exception maximum of 2 units, you can pick and choose what you want to keep
Sorry for the English but i´m very angry ....  Angry Angry
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