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Author Topic: Looking for a simple ewallet, transactions from hot,more difficult than expected  (Read 1254 times)
bitofanoob
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March 02, 2014, 02:55:42 PM
 #1

Hello,

This is my forst post here though I use bitcoin for over a year so I'm not really a newbie. I have the need for a very simple ewallet, yet I can't find by myself what I want.

My requirements are simple. I want the operator to be very easy of use, specialized in automated payments - no misuse of their services from my part and short delays -, to send bitcoins from their own hot wallet - anonymity -, to have low fees and a rather honest policy. I tend to like having the wallet directly embedded into the url, no password, no login, no email. I don't care much about security, I just want to be able to send tens of mB very quickly and simply, without risking to be tied to my other activities, and the overall balance I'll keep in the wallet is going to stay in these ranges. I'll sleep at night if I'm robbed. easywallet.org for example could work but their fees and general policy put me off. There was also the late Paytunia on the same model, I think they were free, unfortunately they closed.

I have a blockchain wallet, it's a hybrid, it sucks big time for what I want to do. I've tested their two methods of anonymizing coins, it's slow - takes hours to a day -, it aborts - guess what, they allow unconfirmed transactions to enter a group operation, this one flabbergasted me -, it doesn't sever addresses - ah ! -, huge amount required for one, fees can be huge. It's really a pain and it's exactly what I do not want for my purposes.

One could think it's a basic need I have, still I've searched the services below and couldn't find what I need :
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:EWallets

Most are not designed for quick transactions (like pocket money you give and receive constantly), in fact they're designed for their own paid services and allow you a wallet to mostly do business with them. So payments are not quick, not automated, they attribute you private addresses you pay from, etc...

I didn't think I'd need help on this one, but here I am, is there someone who understands what I want and knows the solution ? A simple ewallet, running from hot, designed for quick payments, low fees, no hassles, no pain in the neck.
Or perhaps I miss something and should turn to another solution. If you advise a tumbler or something like that, please keep in mind the former requirements, it has to work like pocket money.

Thanks.
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March 03, 2014, 05:14:15 AM
 #2

Sounds like you'd be better off handling transactions on your own server.  You can pretumble the coins, or mix them randomly or something.

Guide to armory offline install on USB key:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=241730.0
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March 03, 2014, 02:05:23 PM
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Sounds like you'd be better off handling transactions on your own server.  You can pretumble the coins, or mix them randomly or something.
What ?

I don't have a server, I'm a basic user, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I want a simple ewallet, that by design will ouput for my transactions coins from other users because using its own hot wallet. It sounds simple enough.
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March 03, 2014, 03:07:27 PM
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Oh that is simple, there are a lot of services like that.

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bitofanoob
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March 03, 2014, 03:24:30 PM
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Well, would you be kind enough to write me down just one name that could fit ? Or more ? Thanks.

As I said, I dind't find a service that suits me, I explained why.
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March 03, 2014, 04:27:12 PM
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Try blockchain.info or multibit

DannyHamilton
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March 03, 2014, 04:44:34 PM
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Try blockchain.info

This doesn't meet the OP's request:
I tend to like having the wallet directly embedded into the url, no password, no login, no email.

or multibit

This doesn't meet the OP's request:
I have the need for a very simple ewallet

It sounds like the OP is looking for something like instaWallet (which no longer exists for very good reasons).

This really sounds like an XY problem.
Quote
The X-Y Problem, as it is sometimes called, is a mental block which leads to enormous amounts of wasted time and energy, both on the part of people asking for help, and on the part of those providing help. It often goes something like this:

    User wants to do X.
    User doesn't know how to do X, but thinks they can fumble their way to a solution if they can just manage to do Y.
    User doesn't know how to do Y either.
    User asks for help with Y.
    Others try to help user with Y, but are confused because Y seems like a strange problem to want to solve.
    After much interaction and wasted time, it finally becomes clear that the user really wants help with X, and that Y wasn't even a suitable solution for X.

The problem occurs when people get their train of thought stuck on one approach and become unable to take a step back. Remaining open to having a new look at the bigger picture, these people might find their way back to X and continue searching for alternative solutions.

In this case "Y" is the Ewallet that only needs a URL, and "X" is whatever the OP is actually trying to accomplish.  The OP seems to think that "Y" will help him accomplish it, but since a trustworthy "Y" doesn't really exist, it would be better if the OP simply asked about "X" (in which case he may find usable advice on how to accomplish his goal).

bitofanoob
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March 03, 2014, 08:27:22 PM
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Try blockchain.info
I quote myself : "I have a blockchain wallet, it's a hybrid, it sucks big time for what I want to do." Come on.

multibit

I have and use multibit, it's of no use considering what I want to do. Do a lot of payments, they all originate from a limited number of address(es), especially these addresses are tied to your former activities. Try it.
bitofanoob
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March 03, 2014, 09:24:58 PM
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Try blockchain.info

This doesn't meet the OP's request:
I tend to like having the wallet directly embedded into the url, no password, no login, no email.

This is not a requirement, but a prefererence.

or multibit

This doesn't meet the OP's request:
I have the need for a very simple ewallet

Multibit is simple enough.

It sounds like the OP is looking for something like instaWallet (which no longer exists for very good reasons).

Instawallet could have worked, perhaps I was confused when I talked of Paytunia, they were both operated by the company that runs bitcoin-central. AFAIK, Chrome leaked the url to its search engine google, I don't use Chrome. I know another business, not to be used as an ewallet for spare change, I tried the 'exploit', the flaw was present and some private urls leaked to google. This alone wouldn't have hindered me from using this service as a spare change ewallet. Same applies to easywallet [corrected], my problem with them are the fees and general policy.

This really sounds like an XY problem.
Quote
The X-Y Problem, as it is sometimes called, is a mental block which leads to enormous amounts of wasted time and energy, both on the part of people asking for help, and on the part of those providing help. It often goes something like this:

    User wants to do X.
    User doesn't know how to do X, but thinks they can fumble their way to a solution if they can just manage to do Y.
    User doesn't know how to do Y either.
    User asks for help with Y.
    Others try to help user with Y, but are confused because Y seems like a strange problem to want to solve.
    After much interaction and wasted time, it finally becomes clear that the user really wants help with X, and that Y wasn't even a suitable solution for X.

The problem occurs when people get their train of thought stuck on one approach and become unable to take a step back. Remaining open to having a new look at the bigger picture, these people might find their way back to X and continue searching for alternative solutions.

In this case "Y" is the Ewallet that only needs a URL, and "X" is whatever the OP is actually trying to accomplish.  The OP seems to think that "Y" will help him accomplish it, but since a trustworthy "Y" doesn't really exist, it would be better if the OP simply asked about "X" (in which case he may find usable advice on how to accomplish his goal).

As you can't distinguish between a requirement and a preference, your assumed Y is wrong, your generalization may just plain suck and itself be the waste of time and source of misunderstanding, I think I was clear, anyway let's try again :

Y= I want an ewallet, it has to work like spare change. Forget about the url thing if it confuses you, I can login with username and password if required, I can even use an email.

X= I want spare change for bitcoins, especially coins in my pocket don't say something meaningful about me, they're just coins, everyone has the same coins. It has to be very cheap, no mafia 100btc min money laudering tumbler, no server I have to run, no 24 hours delay manual transactions done by someone who doesn't want me to abuse his ewallet service as a service for spare change transactions with other businesses.

You buy candies to a grocer, then a blowjob to a hooker, the hooker doesn't know you like candies, and the grocer doesn't know you like blowjobs. How would they know the payment life history of your nickels, eh ? If you use blockchain wallet or multibit, both coud know because they just have to check the transactions in some block explorer like blockchain.info. Indeed you did A->B and A->C transactions, grocer knows you own A, he searches for address C, finds a hooker. They both work for sweeties and other sweet oral pleasures mega-company. Is there something wrong ? I want to avoid these types of situations. Very simply, I put my A money into a big pool, now it's D, E, F, G that pay for me and I pay a little part for them, my A address remains unlinked to my activities.
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March 03, 2014, 09:47:10 PM
 #10

... Very simply, I put my A money into a big pool, now it's D, E, F, G that pay for me and I pay a little part for them, my A address remains unlinked to my activities.

You could use Shared Coin for that. Does exactly what you asked.

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March 03, 2014, 09:58:47 PM
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Try blockchain.info
This doesn't meet the OP's request:
I tend to like having the wallet directly embedded into the url, no password, no login, no email.
This is not a requirement, but a prefererence.

What exactly are the requirements?

or multibit
This doesn't meet the OP's request:
I have the need for a very simple ewallet

Multibit is simple enough.

But not an ewallet.


As you can't distinguish between a requirement and a preference,

You really didn't do a good job of explaining which were requirements and which were preferences.

your assumed Y is wrong,

Apparently.

your generalization may just plain suck and itself be the waste of time and source of misunderstanding,

Perhaps, but it was the best I could to in my attempt to decipher your explanation.

I think I was clear,

Apparently not.

anyway let's try again :

Ok.

Y= I want an ewallet,

An eWallet. Got it. I'm not sure you understand the difference between a wallet and an unsecured, unregulated, uninsured, bitcoin bank account that isn't subject to security audits or financial audits, but we'll assume they are interchangeable for the sake of this discussion.

it has to work like spare change.

This is meaningless.  How does spare change "work"?  This tells us nothing about what you are trying to do.

Forget about the url thing if it confuses you,

It doesn't, but that's fine.  The URL doesn't matter.

I can login with username and password if required, I can even use an email.

Glad to hear it.

X= I want spare change for bitcoins, especially coins in my pocket don't say something meaningful about me, they're just coins, everyone has the same coins. It has to be very cheap, no mafia 100btc min money laudering tumbler, no server I have to run, no 24 hours delay manual transactions done by someone who doesn't want me to abuse his ewallet service as a service for spare change transactions with other businesses.

You buy candies to a grocer, then a blowjob to a hooker, the hooker doesn't know you like candies, and the grocer doesn't know you like blowjobs. How would they know the payment life history of your nickels, eh ? If you use blockchain wallet or multibit, both coud know because they just have to check the transactions in some block explorer like blockchain.info. Indeed you did A->B and A->C transactions, grocer knows you own A, he searches for address C, finds a hooker. They both work for sweeties and other sweet oral pleasures mega-company. Is there something wrong ? I want to avoid these types of situations. Very simply, I put my A money into a big pool, now it's D, E, F, G that pay for me and I pay a little part for them, my A address remains unlinked to my activities.

You are looking for a cheap, trustworthy, reliable, mixing service.

You send some bitcoins to the service.
The service keeps track of how many bitcoins they've received from you, but mixes the bitcoins that they've received from you with all the other bitcoins they receive from everyone else.
They allow you to send an equivalent amount of bitcoins from their service to any bitcoin address.

When done well, it can be nearly impossible to link the source of the bitcoins to their destination.

When done poorly, forensic accounting processes can find a high probability of links between the source and destination.

When done extremely poorly, it becomes obvious what the source is for each destination.

With such a service, there always exists the possibility that the service will eventually reveal all the links (either out of incompetence, malice, or cooperation with law enforcement).

With such a service, there also always exists the possibility that the service will lose the bitcoins (either out of incompetence, fraud, or to a skilled hacker).

Now that it is clear what you are looking for, perhaps someone can offer suggestions of a mixing service that they trust.

Personally, I wouldn't use any of them.  Instead, I use wallet software that has coin control, and that allows me to maintain multiple segregated wallets.  I use a new address for every transaction that I receive.  If I don't want 2 transactions linked, I make sure that the sources funding the 2 transactions are not linked.  If I want to make absolutely certain, I pay each recipient from a completely separate wallet.

I'd think that what you're looking for should be possible with any of the exchanges.  You could create a wallet at BitStamp, BTC-E, Coinbase, etc.  You could fund the account with "spare change".  Then you could make payments directly from the exchange.  The exchange will have information identifying you, but the coins that you pay with shouldn't be linked directly to your addresses in the blockchain.  This provides a very large pool of users to mix the coins with, making any blockchain analysis much more difficult.  Of course many MtGox users just recently discovered the risks of using such a service.

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March 04, 2014, 12:06:26 PM
 #12

... Very simply, I put my A money into a big pool, now it's D, E, F, G that pay for me and I pay a little part for them, my A address remains unlinked to my activities.

You could use Shared Coin for that. Does exactly what you asked.
Like I said in the first post, I have a blockchain wallet, and I've already tested this method, it's implemented in the wallet. It aborts after hours or a day because they allow unspent transactions to enter the batch of transactions, fees 0.5mB/10mb for example = 5%, it doesn't even sever addresses. Can you imagine a worse service ? As it is, they can be called incompetent, liars, or charlatans, that's what I found by experimenting.
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March 04, 2014, 12:56:40 PM
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I won't react to your Z elements, everything brought to the discussion by people who instead of contributing efficiently raise points irrelevant to either Y or believed X, and eventually create only further confusion and loss of time.

it has to work like spare change.

This is meaningless.  How does spare change "work"?  This tells us nothing about what you are trying to do.
This is not meaningless at all, it's a simple resume of my requirements, one just has to put him in my shoes to see the problem from my perspective and try to solve it. Transpose spare change to the bitcoin world, find solutions. I'm no expert but I think fungibility is the learned word for what I was talking about, my coin in my pocket is exactly the same as your coin, I'd like my bitcoin to be exactly the same as yours. Anyway, I gave enough precise descriptions about what I want for the ones who want precise practical descriptions.

X= I want spare change for bitcoins, especially coins in my pocket don't say something meaningful about me, they're just coins, everyone has the same coins. It has to be very cheap, no mafia 100btc min money laudering tumbler, no server I have to run, no 24 hours delay manual transactions done by someone who doesn't want me to abuse his ewallet service as a service for spare change transactions with other businesses.

You buy candies to a grocer, then a blowjob to a hooker, the hooker doesn't know you like candies, and the grocer doesn't know you like blowjobs. How would they know the payment life history of your nickels, eh ? If you use blockchain wallet or multibit, both coud know because they just have to check the transactions in some block explorer like blockchain.info. Indeed you did A->B and A->C transactions, grocer knows you own A, he searches for address C, finds a hooker. They both work for sweeties and other sweet oral pleasures mega-company. Is there something wrong ? I want to avoid these types of situations. Very simply, I put my A money into a big pool, now it's D, E, F, G that pay for me and I pay a little part for them, my A address remains unlinked to my activities.

You are looking for a cheap, trustworthy, reliable, mixing service.

You send some bitcoins to the service.
The service keeps track of how many bitcoins they've received from you, but mixes the bitcoins that they've received from you with all the other bitcoins they receive from everyone else.
They allow you to send an equivalent amount of bitcoins from their service to any bitcoin address.

When done well, it can be nearly impossible to link the source of the bitcoins to their destination.

When done poorly, forensic accounting processes can find a high probability of links between the source and destination.

When done extremely poorly, it becomes obvious what the source is for each destination.

With such a service, there always exists the possibility that the service will eventually reveal all the links (either out of incompetence, malice, or cooperation with law enforcement).

With such a service, there also always exists the possibility that the service will lose the bitcoins (either out of incompetence, fraud, or to a skilled hacker).

Now that it is clear what you are looking for, perhaps someone can offer suggestions of a mixing service that they trust.
My idea is to have a 'natural' mixing service, no need for a specialized one, but I could use both. See the disaster of the blockchain shared coin method I've talked above. What's simpler, cheaper, more reliable and more efficient than an ewallet service running from its hot wallet ?

Personally, I wouldn't use any of them.  Instead, I use wallet software that has coin control, and that allows me to maintain multiple segregated wallets.  I use a new address for every transaction that I receive.  If I don't want 2 transactions linked, I make sure that the sources funding the 2 transactions are not linked.  If I want to make absolutely certain, I pay each recipient from a completely separate wallet.
I have the function in my blockchain wallet. It makes sense, the problem is it is impossible in my situation. My coins come from a limited number of addresses, and they go to a limited number of addresses, eventually where they originate from. Lol. For the recipients, it's like it's written on them "look, it's always the same person".

I'd think that what you're looking for should be possible with any of the exchanges.  You could create a wallet at BitStamp, BTC-E, Coinbase, etc.  You could fund the account with "spare change".  Then you could make payments directly from the exchange.  The exchange will have information identifying you, but the coins that you pay with shouldn't be linked directly to your addresses in the blockchain.  This provides a very large pool of users to mix the coins with, making any blockchain analysis much more difficult.  Of course many MtGox users just recently discovered the risks of using such a service.
Two major inconvenients, I give my ID to spend spare change - using a bazooka to kill a mosquito -, possible misuse or borderline use of their services, this implying it is going to be forbidden or at best slow, manually checked, and all the crap that just doesn't correspond to... SPARE CHANGE. I have coins in my pocket, I use them, I don't give my ID or wait 24 hours for authorization.

Thanks for your contribution which was not void of interest, but you may realize in the end that I have already quite well thought to the problem, probably better than you, from the start, that everything is specified clearly for good reasons, and that my quest is well-grounded and tries to address correctly my problem. As for now, I have one possible name, brought by me,  easywallet [corrected]. Problems, arrogance and high fees, I search for a competitor.

Out of curiosity, small off topic questions : "Of course many MtGox users just recently discovered the risks of using such a service." Are you registered on exchanges ? What bitcoin service do you use ? How do you contribute to the bitcoin economy ? How do you consider in the bitcoin world a commercial transaction given that they are irreversible, not guaranted, not regulated, not assured, prone to scams ?
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March 04, 2014, 02:38:01 PM
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Out of curiosity, small off topic questions : "Of course many MtGox users just recently discovered the risks of using such a service." Are you registered on exchanges ?

To satisfy my curiosity, yes.  But I've never used any of the online currency exchanges for purchase, sale, or long term storage of any bitcoins.

What bitcoin service do you use ?

I purchase products and services from merchants.  I've bought and sold bitcoins locally.  I've exchanged various payment methods for bitcoins with members of bitcointalk.

How do you contribute to the bitcoin economy ?

I provide education on how the protocol works. I assist others in acquiring bitcoins. I assist others in selling bitcoins. I assist those who are having a problem with their Bitcoin-Qt wallet. I make purchases with bitcoins from merchants that provide products or services. I provide a free escrow service for bitcointalk members to facilitate transactions between individuals that have trust concerns.

How do you consider in the bitcoin world a commercial transaction given that they are irreversible,

This is a benefit for merchants providing them less risk of chargeback.  As such, they should be able to offer cheaper prices with the same profit margin as other merchants that accept electronic payments such as paypal or credit cards (since chargeback fraud isn't a liability).

not guaranted,

Once the transaction has confirmations, it is certain.  What do you mean when you say "not guaranteed"?

not regulated,

While regulations are minimal at the moment, I expect that governments will regulate commerce with bitcoins much the same way that they regulate commerce with cash.  Due to having the blockchain as a historical record, and the ability of a payor and/or payee to sign their transaction agreement with their private keys, it will become easier to prove the existence of a particular transaction agreement than it is with cash.

not assured,

Once the transaction has confirmations, it is certain.  What do you mean when you say "not assured"?

prone to scams ?

Everything that has value is prone to scams.  That is human nature.  Dishonest people will always exist.  Dishonest people will always attempt to use dishonest means to acquire value that belongs to someone else.  This is not isolated to bitcoin.

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March 04, 2014, 05:22:45 PM
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There are a lot of services like that.  If you still didn't find a service that suits you, you will not find it at all
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March 04, 2014, 09:31:34 PM
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There are a lot of services like that.  If you still didn't find a service that suits you, you will not find it at all
You're the second person in this topic claiming that the services I search for exist, that they are numerous, though not providing a single name. Again, may I ask politely for just one name, as apparently I can't find it by myself, thus this topic in the first place ? I'm not sure it is going to make a difference.
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March 04, 2014, 09:49:17 PM
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We've been trying to tell you, but you won't listen.  It doesn't exist.  Just use any mixer and divy your coins up into separate addresses to send from.

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March 04, 2014, 10:09:04 PM
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OFF TOPIC/

How do you consider in the bitcoin world a commercial transaction given that they are irreversible,

This is a benefit for merchants providing them less risk of chargeback.  As such, they should be able to offer cheaper prices with the same profit margin as other merchants that accept electronic payments such as paypal or credit cards (since chargeback fraud isn't a liability).

Ok, it was a bit strange to read your warning statement on exchanges, it seems to me like it could hinder people from entering bitcoin, apparently you put efforts in other sectors.

When I talked about guarantees or assurance, it was from the customer's perspective. I have a problem with this point of the irreversibility of transactions. Perhaps you can help and educate me Smiley
In a sale, there are two events, the customer pays money, the seller gives an object or service. Systematically the risk of dishonesty can be put on the buyer, the seller, or dissipated between every parties by using assurance products. In bitcoin, it's like the second option has been chosen. Why and how is it superior to the two other possibilities ? I fail to understand that. In my limited system of thoughts, it looks like the worst option in an economy, because a seller is forced to propose his products and take the risk, it's his job, while a buyer can refrain his buys or use the mainstream, seen as a competitor, economy that is more favorable to him. In short, I've already been scammed in bitcoins, I sent bitcoins and never received my product, I'm not encouraged to repeat this mistake, I'll buy with my credit card that has an insurance product embedded in, finally I tend to refrain from participating in the bitcoin economy.
Your paragraph is true, I understand that, but I think the three systems have their advantages and inconvenients, politically I'd be for an insured risk system, that's a bit the real world actual system, but that's just my preference. Which one is scientifically better, if there is such possibility of a proof, is not very clear at the time to me. That the banks take an undue profit is just a modality. To free the seller from the risk and think it is the best option looks naive to me, what is going to free the buyer from the risk and prevent the above scenario of a finally disgruntled customer ?

/OFF TOPIC
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March 04, 2014, 10:26:47 PM
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We've been trying to tell you, but you won't listen.  It doesn't exist.
I quote you post #4 : "Oh that is simple, there are a lot of services like that."
Therefore, it exists, as Eayscoin exists, I search for a competitor.


Just use any mixer and divy your coins up into separate addresses to send from.
It's a possibility, but it is going to be relatively awfully expensive, and a hassle to manage. That's why I prefer a 'natural' solution, an ewallet running from hot.
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March 04, 2014, 11:28:36 PM
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OFF TOPIC/
How do you consider in the bitcoin world a commercial transaction given that they are irreversible,

This is a benefit for merchants providing them less risk of chargeback.  As such, they should be able to offer cheaper prices with the same profit margin as other merchants that accept electronic payments such as paypal or credit cards (since chargeback fraud isn't a liability).

Ok, it was a bit strange to read your warning statement on exchanges, it seems to me like it could hinder people from entering bitcoin, apparently you put efforts in other sectors.

When I talked about guarantees or assurance, it was from the customer's perspective. I have a problem with this point of the irreversibility of transactions. Perhaps you can help and educate me Smiley
In a sale, there are two events, the customer pays money, the seller gives an object or service. Systematically the risk of dishonesty can be put on the buyer, the seller, or dissipated between every parties by using assurance products. In bitcoin, it's like the second option has been chosen. Why and how is it superior to the two other possibilities ? I fail to understand that. In my limited system of thoughts, it looks like the worst option in an economy, because a seller is forced to propose his products and take the risk, it's his job, while a buyer can refrain his buys or use the mainstream, seen as a competitor, economy that is more favorable to him. In short, I've already been scammed in bitcoins, I sent bitcoins and never received my product, I'm not encouraged to repeat this mistake, I'll buy with my credit card that has an insurance product embedded in, finally I tend to refrain from participating in the bitcoin economy.
Your paragraph is true, I understand that, but I think the three systems have their advantages and inconvenients, politically I'd be for an insured risk system, that's a bit the real world actual system, but that's just my preference. Which one is scientifically better, if there is such possibility of a proof, is not very clear at the time to me. That the banks take an undue profit is just a modality. To free the seller from the risk and think it is the best option looks naive to me, what is going to free the buyer from the risk and prevent the above scenario of a finally disgruntled customer ?
/OFF TOPIC

The consumer is protected by freedom of choice and a free market.

The consumer can choose whether or not to patronize a given merchant, the merchant cannot force consumers to choose his business.

If a merchant is dishonest, he will earn a reputation as such and will quickly lose consumers.  Consumers will naturally choose a merchant with a good reputation over a merchant with a bad reputation.  Any sector with a shortage of trustworthy merchants will soon find entrepreneurs entering the sector providing better and more trustworthy service and putting the dishonest merchant out of business.  For this reason, it makes more sense for the merchant to be protected instead of the consumer.

Keep in mind that while bitcoin "feels" like an electronic payment system, it acts more like cash.  If you walk into a merchant and purchase an item with cash and then discover when you get home that the merchant was dishonest, you have the exact same problem as you do with bitcoin.  This is why bitcoin is often referred to
as a digital currency, digital gold, or digital cash.

A distributed risk with a trusted third party (such as Visa, MasterCard, or a bank) arbitrating the transaction is an option with bitcoin just like it is with any other currency.  There is nothing preventing an innovator from providing such a service in Bitcoin, it just hasn't been widely available yet.  I fully expect that there will come a time in the near future (in the next 3 to 5 years) when someone will offer deposit accounts that are regulated, audited, and insured.  They will offer the ability to make "instant" payments from this deposit account (no need to wait for confirmations if everyone can trust the provider).  This third party risk arbitrator will provide many of the consumer protections that credit cards, debit cards, and other bank payment systems currently provide.  Consumers will have the option of paying with "bitcoin cash" or with a "bitcoin payment processor".  Merchants will be able to choose if they wish to accept a "bitcoin payment processor" so they don't need to wait for confirmations, or if they prefer "bitcoin cash" so they can avoid chargeback risk.

The market will then be able to settle the question of which type of payment is best for each situation.

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