FAO MODS: Why not charge a fee to recover hacked accounts?

[Thanasis]

Seems logical to add 1-3 trusted people to look into these accounts then fast track to Cyrus or theymos.

I actually convey a similar idea long time before,that is arranging a separate staff to recover the hacked accounts will save lot of burden to the theymos.Maybe he don't trust anyone in this forum  

[1713521515]

1713521515

[The_Tribesman]

The website doesn't need money and this isn't about throwing money at the team. It's just a fee that can be put to good use for the forum like all the other fees.

The fee can be given to a pre-uni computing student (with an interest in crypto) who wouldn't mind the experience of being involved with one of the most important sites in crypto (and earning a bit of holiday crypto). That's how IT companies used to handle this sort of backlog in the past. There doesn't appear to be any initiative in resolving the issue. It almost feels like there's a defiant resistance when it comes to resolving this particular issue.

Has anyone got a hacked account back in the last 6 months? Maybe it's only the people who've been unsuccessful (like me) who are making noise. Does anyone know? Have there been any updates?

[LoyceV]

The fee can be given to a pre-uni computing student (with an interest in crypto) who wouldn't mind the experience of being involved with one of the most important sites in crypto (and earning a bit of holiday crypto). That's how IT companies used to handle this sort of backlog in the past. There doesn't appear to be any initiative in resolving the issue.

That would mean the student is given quite a lot of access on this forum. It has to be someone trusted, otherwise it requires supervision and thus takes more of Admin's time.

Has anyone got a hacked account back in the last 6 months? Maybe it's only the people who've been unsuccessful (like me) who are making noise. Does anyone know? Have there been any updates?

I know of a few cases, but they got it back without help from Admin.
As far as I know, account recoveries get a higher priority if Admin recognizes the username.

[TheBeardedBaby]

Wasn't Theymos working on a system that would allow us to regain control of our account by email? Something similar to the possibility to lock our account when the email and password were changed. Wasn't it supposed to be added very soon?

AFAIK he did mention something of sort (bit too lazy to actually search for the specific post). It has been a while though so I wouldn't hold my breath on it coming out any time soon.

Did Theymos pre-announce any of his previous projects, like Merit?

We have no idea what he is working on or what he might announce tomorrow.

He actually did pre-announce the merit system, is was quite a discussion.

~
A couple of ideas that have been floating around in my head:

1. To attain ranks above Member, you'd have to earn some number of merit points. Merit points would be awarded in a monthly vote on best posts of the previous month, with various measures (TBD) to prevent gaming of the vote. Winning merit points might also come with a BTC prize.
~

[The_Tribesman]

The fee can be given to a pre-uni computing student (with an interest in crypto) who wouldn't mind the experience of being involved with one of the most important sites in crypto (and earning a bit of holiday crypto). That's how IT companies used to handle this sort of backlog in the past. There doesn't appear to be any initiative in resolving the issue.

That would mean the student is given quite a lot of access on this forum. It has to be someone trusted, otherwise it requires supervision and thus takes more of Admin's time.

Has anyone got a hacked account back in the last 6 months? Maybe it's only the people who've been unsuccessful (like me) who are making noise. Does anyone know? Have there been any updates?

I know of a few cases, but they got it back without help from Admin.
As far as I know, account recoveries get a higher priority if Admin recognizes the username.

Thanks. That was quite a read.

One account in 6 months and look at what he went through: the begging, the pleading, the sympathy help and advice from other members, then the anger at mods... geeez! I've been through it all (I think many have). Then a finale worthy of Columbo. The cavalry to the bloody rescue!

Is that a typical example of what it takes to get a hacked account back? 

I shouldn't complain too much after reading that. With help from members my account's already been locked and verified. I'm actually near the front of the queue. Best shut up and get bumping...

Thanks for listening and the advice

[hilariousetc]

I've been trying since October, 2017 to recover my hacked account. BCT already has a post ban lifting fee. Why not charge a fee for recovering hacked accounts where account is verified?

There are so many people asking for their hacked accounts to be returned to them. At the moment they're just being completely ignored.

This might work for both parties.

Account recovery has been a problem for as long as I've been a staff member here. There's a thread in the staff forum from 2014 by an ex-mod complaining about the amount of hacked accounts and users not getting them back and things have got exponentially worse since then, especially after the hack. BadBear at least used to look into them every now and again but now I don't think they are being investigated at all, which really isn't acceptable. I did at the time suggest BadBear charge a fee to recover them and he did say he "wouldn't say no", but in retrospect I don't think this would be ideal. Users shouldn't have to pay to get their accounts back and this could just lead to corruption (or at least accusations thereof) when there's money on the line for them being restored. All this could be remedied by either implementing more admins, giving certain staff access to restore accounts, or theymos automating the process. Alternatively, maybe theymos and cyrus should just take a day or two out of every month to investigate and restore them.

Also, automating the system will still have issues. I think we have to remember that the focus/usage of this forum has shifted (whether we like it or not). Most people who come here these days do so for altcoins and as such they never post bitcoin addresses anyway, and if so then an automated process will be useless for them unless you code one for ethereum and every other alt coin address that someone may have used. An automated process will also likely be abused by account sellers just to take their accounts back after they've been sold unless theymos has thought of a way to prevent this. There's also those who have plenty of other proof the account is rightfully theirs but can't sign a message for whatever reason and those should be investigated especially if the other info is very easy to verify which in some cases it has been but they're still waiting or probably even given up for obvious reasons.

I remember Hilariousandco(Global Mod) saying that Cyrus once mentioned that account recoveries are a hectic task, and a lot of investigation is involved. These account recoveries consume a lot of time,apparently. Since only 2 people can investigate and their time is very limited, so a lot of issues just exist and nothing ever happens.

I don't think I said hectic, but what I probably said was that there's likely more to them than just verifying the address and then restoring it. It's likely not just a five minute job.

Theymos has mentioned many times that the forum is not in need of money. So a fee for recovery wouldn't incentivise them to speed it up.

Not necessarily. Would you do overtime at work if you didn't need to and wasn't going to be compensated for the time and effort? This could possibly seep into why they're not being restored because whether cyrus handles them all day or none at all he isn't going to earn any less or more, so why make time? He might even be losing money if he has other business affairs or work commitments to engage in on or off the forum. If mods were to be paid at all for recovering them then it should likely come out of the forum funds which makes much more sense to me. With that being said, earlier this year cyrus did start getting an additional 'admin fee' which I assumed was to do stuff like this, but maybe he's busy with other things theymos has him doing. I have absolutely no idea whether cyrus is doing a lot of work here behind the scenes or very little at all.

Maybe he don't trust anyone in this forum  

Then hire someone he does trust, you can't just ignore it because it won't go away. theymos mentioned before about hiring someone with a business degree or something to run the forum, but not sure they'd be any better than one of the current staff members. I have actually have a GNVQ in Business Studies from collage, does that count?  .

[theymos]

maybe theymos and cyrus should just take a day or two out of every month to investigate and restore them.

It would take at least a couple hours every day to deal with them. Each case typically requires a lot of follow-up. And it's really annoying work. I used to do them sort-of regularly, but at some point I just couldn't stand it anymore, in addition to not really having time. Cyrus is still doing some, though not enough to keep up.

There's no need for any fee, and a fee probably wouldn't be appropriate unless absolutely necessary. Money is not a problem. If I could throw $100k at the problem and make it go away, I would do so. But in the real world, there is no magic wishing well where you can throw money and make things happen. You give people money and they don't do what you want, or the people you hire turn out not to be trustworthy, or you fill out the tax forms wrong and then later have to spend more time&money dealing with that than you would've by just doing the thing with current sub-optimal resources, etc.

I acknowledge that the current situation is very bad, and we have some plans for fixing it. I hope to have manual account reviews going smoothly again before the end of the year at the latest.

theymos mentioned before about hiring someone with a business degree or something to run the forum

Yes, this would be very useful. I hate that I'm basically acting as a CEO here. I hate dealing with lawyers and accountants, or figuring out who to hire. This stuff is not my wheelhouse, and is in fact not even on my ship. I wish that someone would take all of that business-related stuff off my hands. But it looks like that's the one aspect which is most difficult to (safely) get rid of, so I've been trying (with only a bit of success) to delegate in other areas.

[LoyceV]

Yes, this would be very useful. I hate that I'm basically acting as a CEO here. I hate dealing with lawyers and accountants, or figuring out who to hire. This stuff is not my wheelhouse, and is in fact not even on my ship. I wish that someone would take all of that business-related stuff off my hands. But it looks like that's the one aspect which is most difficult to (safely) get rid of, so I've been trying (with only a bit of success) to delegate in other areas.

Thanks for sharing this. This is a part that - as a user - never even crossed my mind. But indeed it makes sense to have legal and tax complications when running a big forum that involves digital money.
I can imagine you're much more of a tech guy, and if that's the part you enjoy, you could even be better off as a user than with all these responsibilities.

I would volunteer some time to look into the hacked accounts

Me too!

[KWH]

@theymos,

I would volunteer some time to look into the hacked accounts, no hiring, tax returns or anything like that.
As for trust, even in everyday life you can't be 100% sure of anyone.

[Parodium]

Recovering accounts must be extremely low on the priority list of Theymos, they know that either way you'll have to create a new account and continue using the forum, so what is the actual benefit to them spending their time recovering your account? What is the net benefit for the forum? Nothing. As far as I've seen it, accounts are only recovered when a high profile person gets hacked, or when the community kicks up a fuss about it, for low level or random users, you are just waiting your time.

[Welsh]

Even if we have users volunteering its still the matter of them dealing with the requests correctly, and actually making the right decisions. Account recoveries must be a pain in the arse to actually get right. There's always going to be people trying backhand tactics to try and getting their hands on accounts that aren't theirs. Especially, because of how much accounts are worth due to signature campaigns, and bounties.

I'm not sure what theymos has in the works to improve on this. But, I'm sure he has a few people in mind that would be appropriate to the job, and actually be able to look into it in depth, and come to the right conclusion. Honestly, sounds like a ball ache, and I don't know why anyone would willingly volunteer a few hours for one case

[pugman]

I remember Hilariousandco(Global Mod) saying that Cyrus once mentioned that account recoveries are a hectic task, and a lot of investigation is involved. These account recoveries consume a lot of time,apparently. Since only 2 people can investigate and their time is very limited, so a lot of issues just exist and nothing ever happens.

I don't think I said hectic, but what I probably said was that there's likely more to them than just verifying the address and then restoring it. It's likely not just a five minute job.

Called it. 

It would take at least a couple hours every day to deal with them. Each case typically requires a lot of follow-up. And it's really annoying work. I used to do them sort-of regularly, but at some point I just couldn't stand it anymore, in addition to not really having time. Cyrus is still doing some, though not enough to keep up.

Yes, this would be very useful. I hate that I'm basically acting as a CEO here. I hate dealing with lawyers and accountants, or figuring out who to hire. This stuff is not my wheelhouse, and is in fact not even on my ship. I wish that someone would take all of that business-related stuff off my hands. But it looks like that's the one aspect which is most difficult to (safely) get rid of, so I've been trying (with only a bit of success) to delegate in other areas.

That's your problem? Jesus, you live in the US, all those problems could be solved, there are so many people you can call up, since you don't have financial issues. Hire someone on or off the forum to manage the forum ads.
I mean, you have been in the bitcoin community for 8-9 years now,you still are finding trouble to find someone trustworthy? Yeah, being an admin can be a tedious and time consuming task, and delegating things may end up fucking you up, but you got to give it a go, otherwise things will get much worse. And the burden you put on yourself,will one day harm you only. Asking for help is not a bad thing, I don't know why, but i think you have such mindset?

Hate dealing with lawyers?  Find a lawfirm and be their client, since again, its not about the money. Having accounting issues, hire accountants? Accounting is a fairly moderate thing to do,because I have a background in it(speaking from experience), and since the forum doesn't have many means of expenses and income, it should be pretty-straightforward. I was fucking honest, and I am not sorry.

[KWH]

Even if we have users volunteering its still the matter of them dealing with the requests correctly, and actually making the right decisions. Account recoveries must be a pain in the arse to actually get right. There's always going to be people trying backhand tactics to try and getting their hands on accounts that aren't theirs. Especially, because of how much accounts are worth due to signature campaigns, and bounties.

I'm not sure what theymos has in the works to improve on this. But, I'm sure he has a few people in mind that would be appropriate to the job, and actually be able to look into it in depth, and come to the right conclusion. Honestly, sounds like a ball ache, and I don't know why anyone would willingly volunteer a few hours for one case

With account sales including private keys, email, etc., it's a crap shoot. Set the criteria for recovery and get the ball rolling; something needs to be done so I volunteered. I spend some time here anyway, may as well benefit the forum.
It shouldn't take a few hours. Set the burden of proof and go from there, if you can't come to some conclusion in 20-30 minutes then it is probably a lost cause.

[hilariousetc]

maybe theymos and cyrus should just take a day or two out of every month to investigate and restore them.

It would take at least a couple hours every day to deal with them. Each case typically requires a lot of follow-up. And it's really annoying work. I used to do them sort-of regularly, but at some point I just couldn't stand it anymore, in addition to not really having time. Cyrus is still doing some, though not enough to keep up.

I'm sure it would take a lot of time, especially with the current backlog, but wouldn't it make even more sense to put someone in charge dedicated to investigating and restoring them? The pile is only going to continue to get bigger the longer it's left and I really think it's unacceptable how long users have been left in the dark without even a response. I'd be absolutely irate if I was in their position. For some users they are losing business because they've lost accounts here and a lot more will be missing out on money from signature campaigns etc.

There's no need for any fee, and a fee probably wouldn't be appropriate unless absolutely necessary. Money is not a problem. If I could throw $100k at the problem and make it go away, I would do so. But in the real world, there is no magic wishing well where you can throw money and make things happen. You give people money and they don't do what you want, or the people you hire turn out not to be trustworthy, or you fill out the tax forms wrong and then later have to spend more time&money dealing with that than you would've by just doing the thing with current sub-optimal resources, etc.

I don't think we should use this is an excuse not to do anything about certain issues. Sure, some people can be greedy and lazy or turn out to be someone they're not but people can be paid after they've done the work and to an acceptable standard, and if they do a shoddy job then they can be fired or let go. You can only do your best and at least you tried, but not doing anything about certain things isn't going to make the situation here any better.

I acknowledge that the current situation is very bad, and we have some plans for fixing it. I hope to have manual account reviews going smoothly again before the end of the year at the latest.

What about the users who have been waiting eight+ months already? Do they have to wait another four months in the hope that the system will be ready by the end of the year? What if it isn't? Wouldn't it make more sense to assign someone to deal with the problem in the meantime? Also, what about those who can't prove their ownership with a bitcoin address or can prove in other ways? Will they continue to languish? The majority of people who join this forum these days likely do so for alt coins and that will only continue to grow and if they haven't posted a bitcoin address then there's still going to be a huge hole here that needs to be manually investigated.

theymos mentioned before about hiring someone with a business degree or something to run the forum

Yes, this would be very useful. I hate that I'm basically acting as a CEO here. I hate dealing with lawyers and accountants, or figuring out who to hire. This stuff is not my wheelhouse, and is in fact not even on my ship. I wish that someone would take all of that business-related stuff off my hands. But it looks like that's the one aspect which is most difficult to (safely) get rid of, so I've been trying (with only a bit of success) to delegate in other areas.

I get that it's probably pretty shitty and unfair that you've become the defacto leader (especially if it's not something you truly wanted to do), but you are the 'boss' here and unless you're going to step down/give up and hand the keys over to someone else (which I don't think you should ever do if you can help it) then I think you should look at ways at lightening the load on both yourself and other mods which will not only relieve stress from you but also the forum and make it a better place in the process. I wouldn't want to have to deal with lawyers either as my previous experience of them has been that most of them aren't very nice people at all and don't really care about anything other than money. I also absolutely hate doing taxes and I know how difficult/stressful it is for anyone running a business, and when you're doing the finances in bitcoin it adds an extra layer of difficulty with capital gains and loses etc (and the tax man not really understanding or 'trusting' bitcoin). If this is something that is causing you stress or headaches then you should look to hiring a professional who can help you with that asap. In the meantime, I think you should look at ways of spreading out the workload here so the forum doesn't suffer in the process. You could have a staff member dedicated to account restorations. One dedicated to running the ad slots. One or two dedicated to adding more merit sources. Maybe a couple dedicated to policing shoddily run ICO campaigns. A team of mods dedicated to policing sig spam etc, and so on. A few of the sub boards still don't even have any dedicated mods which I've been calling for for years. All of these are things that will take away the stress from both you and all current staff and the community and users will be better off for it.

When was the last time you spoke to BadBear? Can't you try contact him and try get him to come back if there's nobody else trusted to be an admin or doing things like restoring accounts etc? I'm sure he could help out in other ways too.

[Welsh]

With account sales including private keys, email, etc., it's a crap shoot. Set the criteria for recovery and get the ball rolling; something needs to be done so I volunteered. I spend some time here anyway, may as well benefit the forum.
It shouldn't take a few hours. Set the burden of proof and go from there, if you can't come to some conclusion in 20-30 minutes then it is probably a lost cause.

Exactly. I'm not sure what the stance is on account sales when it comes to recovering accounts. I'm guessing access to personal messages would need to be done, and looking up transactions on the Blockchain to see if a transaction did occur, and it all lines up to prove whether the account was sold or not. I imagine there's several other things which needs to be taken into consideration, and I can see the more complex cases taking a few hours.

[TheJoke[r]]

to reply the question of the OP.

because thermos is a dipshit that most likely stole money, and now the forum is running on its last breath:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7cvnxy/6900_btc_in_donations_6_years_in_development/
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/55xjai/proof_that_theymoss_embezzled_forum_money_has/

and many others just google "epochtalk reddit"

and the short answer he doesn't give a fuck and should be jailed.

[TryNinja]

~

Stole from who? Wasn't this all a donation? It literally says "donations" in the title of the thread you linked.

What is the accusation for him to be in jail?

[Steamtyme]

because thermos is a dipshit that most likely stole money, and now the forum is running on its last breath:

That's Sir Thermos to you.  

I've seen crazier theories explained much better. How about putting all of the "proof" into a scam accusation for the community to go over. I'm sure it will all make perfect sense; amazed no one here has caught it or dragged the seedy details to the surface. Maybe I'm to used to this forum that was hard to try and read/piece together.

Or you are some troll content to hide behind a new account, which Sir Thermos still makes easy to do so that people can freely join; or use to throw shit at the walls without consequence.

[TheJoke[r]]

look a you... thermos lovers lol. just google what I said and see for yourself. of course it isnt "stealing" because it is donation money. But you know what I meant so don't play bs games ...
I understand where you are coming from, you wish the forum to continue and "prosper" thus you avoid reality. but the reality is this forum is going downwards in a steady pace. all to your beloved "Sir Thermos" and his other friend cyrus.

[TheBeardedBaby]

look a you... thermos lovers lol. just google what I said and see for yourself. of course it isnt "stealing" because it is donation money. But you know what I meant so don't play bs games ...
I understand where you are coming from, you wish the forum to continue and "prosper" thus you avoid reality. but the reality is this forum is going downwards in a steady pace. all to your beloved "Sir Thermos" and his other friend cyrus.

That's bullshit.

I completely understand theymos, satoshi made the right choice, I think.
Everything comes down to trust, and if you want to stay anonymous you can't trust anyone.

When you are famous and mysterious person and in addition holding a few millions in Bitcoin /can be rumours of course/ anonymity is what is keeping you save, and you can have a normal life.

That's why I respect him.