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Author Topic: Has anyone reported bitcoin capital gains or losses on their taxes?  (Read 11799 times)
miscreanity
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October 31, 2011, 06:24:30 PM
 #41

BTW, if Madoff ponzi losers get to write off their losses, we should be able to also! This was allowed because it was considered theft - theft losses can be written off. You can perhaps write off the value of mybitcoin holdings in dollar, at the time they went poof, etc. if you want to be creative.

It would help to be part of the class that creates, revises and enforces the rules in order to be granted the same privileges. If you aren't, that special treatment is probably out of reach.

I'd still be very wary of claiming losses from Bitcoin-related holdings - anything unfamiliar is highly likely to be flagged and/or investigated as potential fraud rather than granted leeway, especially in times of economic duress. Even GoldMoney, which has been around and officially registered globally for a decade, continues to trigger warnings with several national tax agencies. The universal government motto should be: "When in doubt, use your clout!"

I will repeat. On a public forum you say this:

Of course. I report everything to the IRS. I am a good citizen. I love the IRS. They are a bunch of great guys that get a bad rap.


BB w@tchz U

I agree, to an extent. If I thought the consequences of speaking up were outweighed by the benefits of remaining silent, I wouldn't have said anything. The problem is, there are too few protecting themselves and that leaves those on the side of freedom outnumbered. I'd rather risk ire than watch as liberty around the world becomes further eroded until I have to fight to the death (literally or figuratively) for mine.

Extremism is building throughout the world with a growing polarization: on one hand, there is the oppression of Sharia law and on the other is western totalitarianism. The former promotes intolerance and death while the latter institutes slavery through indentured servitude. Neither are acceptable to me.

When a person discovers what freedom to own oneself means, he will live and die as a free man regardless of the costs.
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October 31, 2011, 07:27:41 PM
 #42

It's boringly simple.  Follow the laws of the land where you live concerning income / capital gains.  Full stop.

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miscreanity
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October 31, 2011, 10:23:35 PM
 #43

It's boringly simple.  Follow the laws of the land where you live concerning income / capital gains.  Full stop.

If it were simple, why is there so much debate? There is much more to this than capital gains laws.

Yes, when in Rome... However, that applies to conducting one's interpersonal behavior. If my private assets are not in Rome, what then? What if I become a Roman citizen? Does Rome then have a claim on those assets held in other countries? Who owns me: myself or a government? How, why and to what extent? Not as simple anymore.

Does it make any sense for a business operating and generating income exclusively in Singapore to pay taxes to the UK government just because its owner is a citizen there? Should a German national having his savings at a bank located in the UAE be subject to an account seizure by the FCTO? When a US citizen owns property in Brazil, what right is there to any share of the property by the owner's government?

There's a boggling morass of compensation clauses in tax legislation around the world that have been produced under the guise of "fairness" but primarily result in politicians getting their cut no matter what actions they choose to pursue or whether it's the will of the people or not. If these taxation activities had not be legitimized by those in power, they would be considered extortion and fraud.

People tend to conflate morality with ownership: if one person has more than another, that must be "immoral" or "unfair" simply based on the disparity. Not paying your "fair share" is blindly assumed to be reprehensible, but according to whom? There is often no examination of the process by which the assets were obtained. It's a focus on quantity (of assets) to the exclusion of quality (of owner).

An individual investor might diversify across various sectors (agriculture, finance, mining, etc); a company can do the same, diversifying across various regional jurisdictions. The protection offered is the same: distribution of risk - if one region becomes hostile or unprofitable, there are others that can provide a way to survive and thrive. Corporations have been internationalizing themselves for ages. This is not caused by loopholes; attempts to artificially and forcefully control investment leave those loopholes as incentives to keep capital from fleeing entirely until it can be trapped and the loopholes closed, solidifying control and an exclusive power base (this has been the pattern for every empire and today's governments are following the same path).

Individuals can internationalize the same way as corporations do. If all of a person's assets and investments are in one country, such as Argentina, and people are forced to keep their money in a risky economy, the chances for losses are greater and the incentive to make use of that money domestically is reduced. This is the same response companies have to politicians' perpetual desire to do dumb things, and there's nothing preventing the individual from protecting himself the same way. It is the most effective form of wealth protection possible.
BitMagic
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October 31, 2011, 11:13:21 PM
 #44

The 'reporting' done by the bitch (who would be executed for crimes against humanity had such things been done during WWII, if not dismembered before then by angry citizens) should be example enough of how easy it is for someone with an axe to grind to turn anyone they dislike into mutton. The bitch is also obviously limited in capacity for distinguishing between tax fraud and legitimate planning. Unlike the bitch's dull mental faculties presume, I am fully compliant with the tax laws I'm subject to.

Well, originally I just pointed the IRS to this thread, which wouldn't have done too much (too much leg work for them). But I've decided to actually report you, specifically, Ramon. They now have your contact address, workplace, and plenty of online accounts to gather enough personal info for any investigation, if they like. I sure hope you've paid your taxes.

For someone who "thought the consequences of speaking up were outweighed by the benefits of remaining silent," you sure didn't protect your online identity much. (FYI, I wasn't really even going to bother with this, but you got so excited! Hard to back away from. I do like your taste in music, though).

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Giraffe.BTC
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November 01, 2011, 02:23:51 AM
 #45

It's boringly simple.  Follow the laws of the land where you live concerning income / capital gains.  Full stop.

If it were simple, why is there so much debate? There is much more to this than capital gains laws.

Yes, when in Rome... However, that applies to conducting one's interpersonal behavior. If my private assets are not in Rome, what then? What if I become a Roman citizen? Does Rome then have a claim on those assets held in other countries? Who owns me: myself or a government? How, why and to what extent? Not as simple anymore.

Does it make any sense for a business operating and generating income exclusively in Singapore to pay taxes to the UK government just because its owner is a citizen there? Should a German national having his savings at a bank located in the UAE be subject to an account seizure by the FCTO? When a US citizen owns property in Brazil, what right is there to any share of the property by the owner's government?

There's a boggling morass of compensation clauses in tax legislation around the world that have been produced under the guise of "fairness" but primarily result in politicians getting their cut no matter what actions they choose to pursue or whether it's the will of the people or not. If these taxation activities had not be legitimized by those in power, they would be considered extortion and fraud.

People tend to conflate morality with ownership: if one person has more than another, that must be "immoral" or "unfair" simply based on the disparity. Not paying your "fair share" is blindly assumed to be reprehensible, but according to whom? There is often no examination of the process by which the assets were obtained. It's a focus on quantity (of assets) to the exclusion of quality (of owner).

An individual investor might diversify across various sectors (agriculture, finance, mining, etc); a company can do the same, diversifying across various regional jurisdictions. The protection offered is the same: distribution of risk - if one region becomes hostile or unprofitable, there are others that can provide a way to survive and thrive. Corporations have been internationalizing themselves for ages. This is not caused by loopholes; attempts to artificially and forcefully control investment leave those loopholes as incentives to keep capital from fleeing entirely until it can be trapped and the loopholes closed, solidifying control and an exclusive power base (this has been the pattern for every empire and today's governments are following the same path).

Individuals can internationalize the same way as corporations do. If all of a person's assets and investments are in one country, such as Argentina, and people are forced to keep their money in a risky economy, the chances for losses are greater and the incentive to make use of that money domestically is reduced. This is the same response companies have to politicians' perpetual desire to do dumb things, and there's nothing preventing the individual from protecting himself the same way. It is the most effective form of wealth protection possible.

Typical rationalization by the selfish and greedy.  You live in our society, so pay your share or get the fuck out.  Fucking traitor.

Donation address:  none, because I'm not a goddamn hobo.
miscreanity
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November 01, 2011, 04:28:30 AM
 #46


You're only really at risk of being audited if you brag on a public forum where the IRS can subpoena your account info and IP address history.

Precisely; none of that has taken place in this thread.

A contemplative discussion was begun and information regarding asset protection has been provided. That information is relevant for any and all individuals living, working or residing in any country. In fact, supportive information for the reporting of Bitcoin assets to US tax authorities was provided.

Just like the assumption regarding some of my links, the emotional reactions toward the tax information and thoughts provided assumed what I spoke of was only pertaining to the US. It is true that the information is applicable to the US as well, but the responses were derogatory and bordering on zealotry, as thought the world outside of America doesn't exist.

Nowhere have there been claims of wrong-doing or malicious intent; the conceptual discussion has been objective and pertaining to defensive measures. At worst, a suggestion of avoidance regarding becoming a guinea pig in setting precedent was mentioned. It was already pointed out that once wealth leaves the Bitcoin system, even if functioning as a tax haven, it is subject to whatever rules are applicable to the instrument the wealth has been transferred into. The issue of wealth that remains in the Bitcoin system is a different matter that wasn't broached because of one individual's ill temper.

Yes, I should've ignored the troll. Even with that admission, any actions taken to offline status move into a clearly-defined precedent, especially if that happens with international significance. The emotional reactions taken offline by a certain participant in this thread have been uncalled for and these actions may be seen as grounds for harassment with serious legal repurcussions, including both civil and criminal slander and libel suits in multiple juridictions.

If the challenge is to be persisted in after witnessing multiple lengthy replies of lucid clarification from myself and considering the extensive measure of legal contacts that accrue in some industries, then it will be met will the fullest extent of legal defense. Reminder: offline harassment is a clear case - in some instances a felony.

Note the following statements that were made prior to the threat of offline action, then the initial direct statement implying good-natured discourse (again, nation-agnostic) and multiple escalating offers for the instigating offender to cease hostilities (after which the offender's comments were addressed indirectly):

Nothing I've offered is illegal in western nations (yet): the same methods presented are those typically reserved for legal asset protection among high net-worth individuals and organizations

...

... I am fully compliant with the tax laws I'm subject to.

Which country are you going to be reporting in? I'll be sure to avoid it until the backlash forces change. Smiley

If you have a particular area of expertise and would like to discuss concepts, I'd be glad to learn and share ideas. A flame-war isn't productive.

There - you've received a reply that's stooped to your communication level, so there's no way I can further explain your retarded actions. Do you really want to continue this? I don't - it's as vile as you.

Now that that's done...

Typical rationalization by the selfish and greedy.  You live in our society, so pay your share or get the fuck out.  Fucking traitor.

Everything you need to protect your assets the way the "selfish and greedy" do has been handed to you on a silver platter, but that's selfish and greedy? If I'm using that information and the same is given to you, it cannot logically follow that making use of the information is selfish or greedy. Please explain your view, preferably without the profanity.

Who determines what the "share" is? You? Me? Some nameless, faceless person who has barely a vague idea about either of us, or the drunkard subsisting on government hand-outs? What if Ireland demanded that all persons holding an Irish passport had to pay taxes to the nation, even if income were made in the US? Would America stand for that?

Get out of where? Mine is a sentiment that's part of a small, but rising global chorus. It's a mindset of live and let live. I don't dictate to you and don't dictate to me; I don't pay your way, you don't pay mine. Is that so threatening?

These aren't necessarily easy questions, nor is there an easy answer at this point.
Joseph sterns
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November 01, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
 #47

Gotta say that this thread went out of wack by a couple keyboard warriors ( man I live that term ) very cool of you to rat out another user of the bitcoin community because of an argument.

Re to OP everyone should be paying taxes on btc I have every intention of complying to US law especially since it goes to benefitting us as a society to much greed has caused this world to spiral downhill and those adding to the mess does nothing to help, sad but true there are more selfless people in this world than those who want to help. If you want to evade taxes and then brag about how to do so on a online forum on an IP that can be linked to you certainly deserves to get fucked royally by the Feds, not claiming anything on bitcoin will certainly be a downfall for it if everyone in the community of bitcoin use it to evade taxes, do the right thing if you want bitcoin to survive as a currency do your part and don't be part of the selfless if you do may luck and god be with you but you do nothing for us other than add to the already ongoing criminal activity to bitcoin which will most likely be the end of it

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BitMagic
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November 01, 2011, 06:40:09 AM
 #48

Yes, I should've ignored the troll. Even with that admission, any actions taken to offline status move into a clearly-defined precedent, especially if that happens with international significance. The emotional reactions taken offline by a certain participant in this thread have been uncalled for and these actions may be seen as grounds for harassment with serious legal repurcussions, including both civil and criminal slander and libel suits in multiple juridictions.

Gotta say that this thread went out of wack by a couple keyboard warriors ( man I live that term ) very cool of you to rat out another user of the bitcoin community because of an argument.

Welcome to the real world, bitches.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
Joseph sterns
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November 01, 2011, 07:11:42 AM
 #49

You sir are a toolbag perhaps it's the world you live in but ever since the playground era (childhood for the fools) being a tattle tale gets you one thing - zero respect

If you can live with that you should check your pants because your missing a set of balls. No offense to the women of this community if you tattle then your just a C***

Be cool and pay your taxes

And about fire safety. Be cool!! Hope some people get that reference lol
Primitive Caveman
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November 01, 2011, 07:56:27 AM
 #50

You sir are a toolbag perhaps it's the world you live in but ever since the playground era (childhood for the fools) being a tattle tale gets you one thing - zero respect

If you can live with that you should check your pants because your missing a set of balls. No offense to the women of this community if you tattle then your just a C***

Be cool and pay your taxes

And about fire safety. Be cool!! Hope some people get that reference lol

If he wasn't doing something wrong there'd be nothing to rat about. If bitcoin is going to get anywhere, it needs to look legitimate, not childish. People like miscreanity and Atlas are doing everything in their power to make it look like a community of conspiracy theorists and fools.

And seriously, you're using a schoolyard analogy? We're (supposed to be) adults here. If you want to play like a grown-up, you have to suffer the grown-up consequences for your actions. We aren't first graders here.

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November 01, 2011, 10:33:47 AM
 #51

No, a patch for a mess that existed because there was no patch.
The mess exists because the tax code as it stands is absurd. Unrealised losses and unrealised gains aren't symmetric; if you have an unrealised gain then you haven't seen a penny of the money and quite possibly never will so it makes sense not to pay tax on them, but unrealised losses mean you're actually out real money. (Then again, it's not the only messed-up part of the tax code in the US; the handling of stock options from jobs is insane and designed to deliberately overvalue them, meaning that people can end up paying more in tax on them than they could ever have actually made from them.)

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BitMagic
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November 01, 2011, 02:29:12 PM
 #52

You sir are a toolbag perhaps it's the world you live in but ever since the playground era (childhood for the fools) being a tattle tale gets you one thing - zero respect

I guess my fool life is over now that I don't have any respect from tax-evading scam artists and extremist libertarians.

People like miscreanity and Atlas are doing everything in their power to make it look like a community of conspiracy theorists and fools.

You forgot the important bit. Thieves. They're actually thieves.

No, a patch for a mess that existed because there was no patch.
The mess exists because the tax code as it stands is absurd. Unrealised losses and unrealised gains aren't symmetric; if you have an unrealised gain then you haven't seen a penny of the money and quite possibly never will so it makes sense not to pay tax on them, but unrealised losses mean you're actually out real money.

It's perfectly symmetrical, unless by symmetrical you meant uneven.

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Joseph sterns
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November 01, 2011, 05:12:52 PM
 #53

If you actually read my post I am for the overall success of bitcoin, I am with you 100% on people paying tax on them but whose business is it for you to go and tattle tale about someone elses life choices I said nothing about not paying taxes.

The schoolyard era was merely trying to say that people who tattle never get any respect and has been that way for as long as I can remember at least in my book and hasnt changed even though I am an adult now. People who don't pay taxes should be getting in troubled but it's their choice to do so pointing the finger at them is just a low thing to do and that was my point not anything else..

This post was directed at primitive.

Your life may not be over sure but that still doesn't change the fact that you went and tattled on someone over an argument people must pay taxes on bitcoin but there should be no reason you go and tell on someone it's not any of your business
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November 01, 2011, 05:15:26 PM
 #54

Yes, I should've ignored the troll. Even with that admission, any actions taken to offline status move into a clearly-defined precedent, especially if that happens with international significance. The emotional reactions taken offline by a certain participant in this thread have been uncalled for and these actions may be seen as grounds for harassment with serious legal repurcussions, including both civil and criminal slander and libel suits in multiple juridictions.

Gotta say that this thread went out of wack by a couple keyboard warriors ( man I live that term ) very cool of you to rat out another user of the bitcoin community because of an argument.

Welcome to the real world, bitches.

This isn't the real world.
BitMagic
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November 01, 2011, 06:22:06 PM
 #55

Yes, I should've ignored the troll. Even with that admission, any actions taken to offline status move into a clearly-defined precedent, especially if that happens with international significance. The emotional reactions taken offline by a certain participant in this thread have been uncalled for and these actions may be seen as grounds for harassment with serious legal repurcussions, including both civil and criminal slander and libel suits in multiple juridictions.

Gotta say that this thread went out of wack by a couple keyboard warriors ( man I live that term ) very cool of you to rat out another user of the bitcoin community because of an argument.

Welcome to the real world, bitches.

This isn't the real world.

It is, now. Fantasy's gotta end some time.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
BitMagic
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November 01, 2011, 09:17:49 PM
 #56

This was just too good not to post. He claims he's a defense attorney, until I suggest his writing is so terrible, it can't be true. He claims reporting someone for breaking the law is akin to "outing" a gay person. I told him being gay wasn't illegal. I also asked him if it was "none of his business" if someone was shot right next to him.

Yes, you are about to hear a "defense attorney" tell you that he wouldn't report a shooting "depending on the circumstances."

This is what we're working with, people.




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November 01, 2011, 09:22:04 PM
 #57

On the internet, anyone can be a "lawyer" :p

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Joseph sterns
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November 01, 2011, 10:28:21 PM
 #58

its nice of you to censor out most of the conversation we? I dont think anyone cares about what you have to say other than yourself
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November 01, 2011, 10:48:28 PM
 #59

its nice of you to censor out most of the conversation we? I dont think anyone cares about what you have to say other than yourself


No problem we I think censorship is bad I'm a censorship attorney you love to write without any punctuation I can tell. we?

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
Joseph sterns
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November 01, 2011, 10:56:17 PM
 #60

What do you do all day other than put up hate comments does your imaginary girlfriend listen to all your bullshit to? im not going to try to ebattle you i said it already its like winning the special olympics doesnt matter if you win or not you are still retarded.

Do you want to try more stuff you grammar nazi? perhaps I can write a whole paragraph for you with mistakes and you can try to pick out every single one

I forgot to capitalize an I but I left it out so you can pick at it
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