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Author Topic: BTC Stolen from Poloniex  (Read 167413 times)
allcrypt
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April 24, 2014, 04:05:45 PM
 #721

Poloniex is a direct competitor of mine that is CRUSHING me in volume. Business wise - I should hope they fail so I can capture some of that volume.

That being said - they were the first exchange to have an issue and immediately be not only transparent about it, but also to give the details, helping other exchanges protect themselves. It's something no one's done before, and they gained a ton of respect from me, personally.

I never traded there, I dont know the details of how they are handling the repayment - so I cannot comment on that.

All I know is they showed integrity from the beginning. Its more than most do.

And as a side note - 100% stolen, here's 50% back - that was CoinEx, not Poloniex. Poloniex lost about 12% if I remember correctly. The fact that people still trade at CoinEx blows my mind. The fact that CryptoRush is not only coming back after losing almost everything, hiding it, then lying about hiding it, then 'coming clean' only after they were ratted out, and people still champion them... thats even more mind blowing.

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beaknuke
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April 24, 2014, 09:20:14 PM
 #722

i just read this.. intersting... i have just invested in their new cloud mining service.. so lets hope that was a good move

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April 24, 2014, 11:22:40 PM
 #723

I use Poloniex to trade Huntercoin.  They have been good to me thus far and I even donated the bit that they owed me.

I feel safe recommending people to use them to buy Huntercoins.

https://AltQuick.com/exchange/ - Trade altcoins & Bitcoin Testnet coins with real Bitcoin. Fast, private, and easy!
https://FreeBitcoins.com/faucet/ - Load your AltQuick exchange account with free Bitcoins & Testnet every 10 minutes.
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April 25, 2014, 10:48:30 AM
 #724

No word from busoni anywhere why only such a litte percentage of the fees is used to pay back the users btc.  Angry

If this is going on it will take the whole rest of this year to pay all users back.

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April 25, 2014, 11:13:11 AM
 #725

No word from busoni anywhere why only such a litte percentage of the fees is used to pay back the users btc.  Angry

If this is going on it will take the whole rest of this year to pay all users back.
This weeks payback is possibly going to be the biggest, going by this weeks volume. Busoni may also utilize the new mining fund he has listed, to pay back quicker, maybe.
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April 25, 2014, 01:10:07 PM
 #726

All I can say is that Tristan and Angela are some of the most responsive people I've encountered thus far when it comes to exchanges. They keep adding improvements, many of which were suggested by users. Tristan is active a lot in the trollbox, as are some moderators, and they are really responsive there. I've always had any problem solved within a few hours.

Yes, he made a mistake at the beginning. Many people do. As long as he has learned from that mistake, and makes sure security is sorted, I don't mind. Also he has been paying back up till now, but he has low fees, and thus it can take some time before everything is paid back.

BTC: 1788UegKXGXXicfPcbZ1bmSUJ99ZWRCF7p
LTC: LZ2rCcoxK4X8wRRynqdxoimd4d3TDNk7Lk
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beaknuke
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April 26, 2014, 12:24:25 AM
 #727

the new mining service paid out today at 8pm uk time...

For 3 shares in MN1 i got paid 0.0032089 BTC
Gonna pop open the bubbly

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April 26, 2014, 09:47:38 AM
 #728

the new mining service paid out today at 8pm uk time...

For 3 shares in MN1 i got paid 0.0032089 BTC
Gonna pop open the bubbly

You sure? Seems high @5.7% return, unless ive misunderstood something.
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April 26, 2014, 06:09:17 PM
 #729

Ive been trading for a while now at poloniex... Luckily I didnt have any BTC there at the time of the hack... only other alts that didnt got effected by the hack

The way Poloniex (Busoni etc.)  Handled this situation is a big first in crypto for me... This is the only exchange as far as I know that is paying back its customers... yeah thats right... he sees us as customers.. and treats us like customers as well

Having said that... Honesty builds trust... The dev AND his/her moderators are very active in the trollbox... Just ask something and you will get a respond almost instantly... And most of the time the issue you have, is solved without even filling in a supportticket...  ive seen moderators spending lots of time to solve an issue for someone...


So the question is:

Can you trust an exchange wich got hacked in the past? in the case of poloniex... YES! transparancy and honesty are always best  Wink

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April 27, 2014, 11:25:27 AM
 #730

That being said - they were the first exchange to have an issue and immediately be not only transparent about it, but also to give the details
This is good, HOWEVER he also received strong warnings from several respected members, pointing out how he was clearly clueless about what he was doing, and he completely ignored them.
Even if he's not actively scamming you, he'll most likely be brought down by "the next big break". It's only a matter of time.

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April 27, 2014, 01:14:36 PM
 #731

So the question is:

Can you trust an exchange wich got hacked in the past? in the case of poloniex... YES! transparancy and honesty are always best  Wink



While he showed he is transparent and honest, has he done anything to show that he has hired a competent programmer?

The problem didn't occur because Poloniex was secretive or dishonest. It occurred because the developer didn't understand the very basics of how web applications talk to databases. Has that been fixed?
allcrypt
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April 27, 2014, 01:24:37 PM
 #732

That being said - they were the first exchange to have an issue and immediately be not only transparent about it, but also to give the details
This is good, HOWEVER he also received strong warnings from several respected members, pointing out how he was clearly clueless about what he was doing, and he completely ignored them.
Even if he's not actively scamming you, he'll most likely be brought down by "the next big break". It's only a matter of time.


That's hearsay unless you can provide links to comments. Anyone can claim "he was warned!" Just to make him look bad. But that's disingenuous without links to back that up. He cannot disprove a negative. It's on you to show that it happened.

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grifferz
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April 27, 2014, 01:33:53 PM
 #733

This is good, HOWEVER he also received strong warnings from several respected members, pointing out how he was clearly clueless about what he was doing, and he completely ignored them.
Even if he's not actively scamming you, he'll most likely be brought down by "the next big break". It's only a matter of time.


That's hearsay unless you can provide links to comments. Anyone can claim "he was warned!" Just to make him look bad. But that's disingenuous without links to back that up. He cannot disprove a negative. It's on you to show that it happened.

This very thread is full of warnings that someone who doesn't understand database transactions should not be operating a currency exchange. He's still operating a currency exchange. You just have to read it from the start. You're not seriously suggesting that we have to do that for you, are you?
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April 27, 2014, 02:14:51 PM
 #734

This is good, HOWEVER he also received strong warnings from several respected members, pointing out how he was clearly clueless about what he was doing, and he completely ignored them.
Even if he's not actively scamming you, he'll most likely be brought down by "the next big break". It's only a matter of time.


That's hearsay unless you can provide links to comments. Anyone can claim "he was warned!" Just to make him look bad. But that's disingenuous without links to back that up. He cannot disprove a negative. It's on you to show that it happened.

This very thread is full of warnings that someone who doesn't understand database transactions should not be operating a currency exchange. He's still operating a currency exchange. You just have to read it from the start. You're not seriously suggesting that we have to do that for you, are you?

Does Mike Hearn understand why redlisting bitcoins cannot operate?
allcrypt
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April 27, 2014, 02:43:23 PM
 #735

This is good, HOWEVER he also received strong warnings from several respected members, pointing out how he was clearly clueless about what he was doing, and he completely ignored them.
Even if he's not actively scamming you, he'll most likely be brought down by "the next big break". It's only a matter of time.


That's hearsay unless you can provide links to comments. Anyone can claim "he was warned!" Just to make him look bad. But that's disingenuous without links to back that up. He cannot disprove a negative. It's on you to show that it happened.

This very thread is full of warnings that someone who doesn't understand database transactions should not be operating a currency exchange. He's still operating a currency exchange. You just have to read it from the start. You're not seriously suggesting that we have to do that for you, are you?


So, this thread, that was posted AFTER the hack happened, is full of warnings?

And you're saying he ignored those warnings. After the hack happened.

Thats helpful.

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grifferz
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April 27, 2014, 02:52:53 PM
 #736

This is good, HOWEVER he also received strong warnings from several respected members, pointing out how he was clearly clueless about what he was doing, and he completely ignored them.
Even if he's not actively scamming you, he'll most likely be brought down by "the next big break". It's only a matter of time.


That's hearsay unless you can provide links to comments. Anyone can claim "he was warned!" Just to make him look bad. But that's disingenuous without links to back that up. He cannot disprove a negative. It's on you to show that it happened.

This very thread is full of warnings that someone who doesn't understand database transactions should not be operating a currency exchange. He's still operating a currency exchange. You just have to read it from the start. You're not seriously suggesting that we have to do that for you, are you?


So, this thread, that was posted AFTER the hack happened, is full of warnings?

And you're saying he ignored those warnings. After the hack happened.

Thats helpful.

I think you have misunderstood.

No one is saying that the operator of Poloniex was warned about his poor programming ability before his exchange was hacked. That would be impossible since no one has seen the code.

The only reason that anyone is able to accuse Poloniex's operator of not knowing what they are doing code-wise is due to the explanation of the root cause — multiple in-flight database transactions all being allowed to go through resulting in negative account balance.

After that revelation, many people warned that this level of ability is not sufficient to run something that is managing other people's money. For that reason it was suggested it should shut down, or at least hire competent developers to perform an an audit and provide ongoing development.

There has been no indication that Poloniex has hired more skilled developers, done a code audit or any of that.

Once again, no one is suggesting that Poloniex was warned of this problem before it was actually exploited. That would be impossible. The issue is that it hasn't been mitigated — nothing's actually been fixed (apparently)! The warnings have been ignored.
allcrypt
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April 27, 2014, 03:39:25 PM
 #737

I think you have misunderstood.

No one is saying that the operator of Poloniex was warned about his poor programming ability before his exchange was hacked. That would be impossible since no one has seen the code.

The only reason that anyone is able to accuse Poloniex's operator of not knowing what they are doing code-wise is due to the explanation of the root cause — multiple in-flight database transactions all being allowed to go through resulting in negative account balance.

After that revelation, many people warned that this level of ability is not sufficient to run something that is managing other people's money. For that reason it was suggested it should shut down, or at least hire competent developers to perform an an audit and provide ongoing development.

There has been no indication that Poloniex has hired more skilled developers, done a code audit or any of that.

Once again, no one is suggesting that Poloniex was warned of this problem before it was actually exploited. That would be impossible. The issue is that it hasn't been mitigated — nothing's actually been fixed (apparently)! The warnings have been ignored.

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. I did read that as "he was warned" and my response was "Yeah, after it happened?"

I also run an exchange. We coded everything internally. I personally have been writing code for about 15 years. While the mistake poloniex made was a bad one (you check balances at every step) people are not infallable. There is always someone out there smarter than you, faster than you, trickier than you.

The claim that he didnt prove he hired a competent programmer is, again, disingenuous. There is no such thing as a programmer you can hire that can make you hack proof. I used to work for an IT company that was poor, and it was the most amazing job ever. We have $57 and need a new mail server. Go. And I rocked that.

Then we got money and grants and it was here's a $25,000 grant, we need a new fileserver, go. So I went, and said we can do it for $5k, and I was told no, we need to hire a competent company to oversee the project.

Nevermind the fact I could save them $20,000, nevermind the fact I had more years experience than the company we hired was in business, nevermind the fact that what they wound up with was a slow, bloated system with a $6,000 a year maintenance agreement on top of the $25k they spent...

People seem to think that throwing money at a problem makes a better product.

I personally code AllCrypt.com - and "it's a homemade piece of junk". But I could contract myself out at $200 an hour and someone pays me $20k to make an exchange for them and slap a "Built by CyberSystems Security and Code" label on it, and wow, it's such a well made system.

Money doesn't fix problems. Money makes you feel better that there are no problems, when no one, NO ONE, is infallible and there is ALWAYS a hacker out there who's better than you, or better than the money you spent.

We got hacked. Because I had a stupid typo in one of the files (a 'are you logged in as the user that this email change request was for' always evaluated true). Someone who was a lot more inventive than I was found it. It wasnt an error, it wasn't poor database coding, it wasn't something that would even be seen on a security scan or site checkout. It was someone, who intended to steal coins, tried to do, thinking "Hmm lets try this" - and found the hole.

It does not mean that the site was poorly made. It does not mean that I'm an idiot who cannot be trusted. It does not mean that if I throw $10,000 at someone the site will magically be better.

It means a human mistake was made a a tricky bastard found it. We fixed it, we were back up in less than 48 hours, and as a result did another security audit and tightened up other areas just to be sure. I'm glad the hack happened how and when it did. We were open and honest about it. Thats what matters.

Berating someone for doing the right thing (in SO many ways) and then saying their site is crap because they didn't throw a pile of money at someone to make you feel better is just absurd.

Target was recently the victim of a huge credit card hack. I will admit I don't know all the details, too busy to read it all, but last I heard they thought it was an inside job. Will you never shop there again because they didnt fire everyone and pay a company millions to do a security audit of every person working there?

Of course not. A bad thing happened, Target apologized, did what they could to make it right, and moved forward.

Bashing Poloniex because they made a mistake, and then didnt throw money around (that should be used to pay back losses, mind you) is just stupid. And if they DID spend $20k to "hire a competent programmer" - the cries of "You should have paid us back with that money!!!" would have been insane.

I'm all about transparency and integrity. I think Poloniex went above and beyond in that department. They are the first (not only - we followed in their footsteps) exchange to have an issue and publicly admit fault, admit what happened, and assist other exchanges in making sure they didnt make the same mistake.

That alone should garner more trust than any bag of money thrown at a "competent programmer".


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grifferz
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April 27, 2014, 04:28:29 PM
 #738

We got hacked. Because I had a stupid typo in one of the files (a 'are you logged in as the user that this email change request was for' always evaluated true). Someone who was a lot more inventive than I was found it. It wasnt an error, it wasn't poor database coding, it wasn't something that would even be seen on a security scan or site checkout. It was someone, who intended to steal coins, tried to do, thinking "Hmm lets try this" - and found the hole.

It does not mean that the site was poorly made. It does not mean that I'm an idiot who cannot be trusted. It does not mean that if I throw $10,000 at someone the site will magically be better.

I would say that the difference between this situation and Poloniex's hack, is that the root cause of your hack is a simple human error that anyone could have done, whereas the root cause of Poloniex's hack is a fundamental lack of understanding.

To have a problem like that, you would essentially have to do something like this:

Code:
if (customer_balance() >= $sum) {
    deduct($customer, $sum);
}

You surely must agree that someone doing that in a web application with concurrent queries and no database transactions is making a very serious error borne of inexperience. There is no way to accidentally do that. You can only do it by being inexperienced and not realising the peril.

A lot of people have said this over and over in this thread, and I don't want to labour the point. It's just that there were a few posts along the lines of "yay, we're being paid back bit by bit, everything's okay" and I just wanted to reiterate that the root cause here has not been addressed.

I completely agree that the way Poloniex owned up to the hack, gave a description of how it happened, and started paying customers back is admirable. A lot of other Bitcoin enterprises would do well to follow that example.

I also agree with you that laying out money for developers and audits may not have been possible, would certainly enrage customers who are out of pocket and would be no guarantee of future success.

Yet what else is there? This is other people's money. I am concerned that another one of these logic bombs is going to be discovered and the exchange will be emptied, at which point it doesn't matter if it's being operated by Gandhi or Mark Karpeles — everyone's money is still gone!

Any exchange can have bugs but also people must take prior information into account.
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April 27, 2014, 05:59:05 PM
 #739

I cannot actually believe I just had a sane adult discussion on the internet.

Mind. Blown.

Wink

I agree - a  situation that allowed multiple threads to submit multiple deposit requests at the same time, and the withdrawal daemon not doublechecking balances before sending the funds is a born of inexperience. I guess my defense comes against all the other accusations - like not paying a "real" programmer, or the call that it's a bad exchange because of a singular, well handled issue.

That being said - our terms and conditions clearly states that if a hack happens that could have been prevented by a user using the security features we make available, we're not taking responsibility for the loss of your coin. When we were hacked, 3 people lost coins. Not a single one had 2FA or locked/saved withdrawal addresses. Four others (I think it was four) were targeted, and lost nothing, because they had 2FA turned on.

Users need to take responsibility also. In Poloniex's case - it wouldnt have mattered. It seemed like it was one jackass user who found an exploit and stole from the main wallet.

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April 30, 2014, 03:23:12 PM
 #740

When does the money get paid back to those who lost?
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