DEA agent discusses Bitcoin in class today

[Raoul Duke]

Where does it say they hand out private information without court order?
Regardless, that is not the issue, when it comes to drug trafficking or other illegal activities, its usually not a bright idea to hide behind a need for a court order.

And since when does an exchange owned by a japanese company need to comply with a US warrant?
They offered their colaboration, they went to DEA, it was not DEA who went to them to ask for help... that says it all. Or can't you add 2+2?

[P4man]

IM perfectly fine with them "cooperating" with the DEA or any other law enforcement agency. Cooperating doesnt mean handing out private data without appropriate legal request. Just explaining them how it works is a form of cooperation. For all I know, it might even be illegal for Mt Gox to give that information to the DEA or anyone else without court order.

But this is irrelevant to the discussion; anyone dealing in drugs is going to have to assume a court order will be given. Assuming anything else, and relying on Mt Gox or other exchanges to protect your privacy when you are committing crimes, thats whats naive.

[Raoul Duke]

IM perfectly fine with them "cooperating" with the DEA or any other law enforcement agency. Cooperating doesnt mean handing out private data without appropriate legal request. Just explaining them how it works is a form of cooperation. For all I know, it might even be illegal for Mt Gox to give that information to the DEA or anyone else without court order.

But this is irrelevant to the discussion; anyone dealing in drugs is going to have to assume a court order will be given. Assuming anything else, and relying on Mt Gox or other exchanges to protect your privacy when you are committing crimes, thats whats naive.

Agreed. If was in any of the exchanges shoes I would also comply, probably even with informal requests for cooperation, at least if I wanted to keep my liitle unregulated financial service going
I just wouldn't say it's naive to expect the exchanges to keep users anonymous, i would say it's EXTREMELY naive.

[jetmine]

What I'm trying to illustrate is that the model of anonymity of btc is different than cash.  People who intricately understand what kind of information is stored in the block chain will understand all of this.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this, but my impression is that you mean that the blockchain retains more "traceable" information than cash does.  And you refer to the example that cash could have passed through the hands of an unidentified entity before reaching an identified destination, while bitcoin cannot (without leaving "evidence" of that in the blockchain).  And that this situation gives "plausible deniability" to anyone (for cash), while it does not (for bitcoin).

If that is what you meant, I disagree.

The blockchain tracks all transfers of bitcoin from one address to another.  However that is not the only, single, exclusive, way of transferring bitcoins.  I can just as well have bitcoins in a wallet and give you an USB stick with the wallet file.  Now the bitcoins are yours and you can spend them on things that I (and maybe the law) disagree with.  However, YOU are the responsible one, not me.   Yet there is no trace in the blockchain of me transferring the coins to you.

This example shows that your argument (or what I assume yours is), is wrong.  I can pausibly deny the responsibility, pointing to you (the icecream vendor), just like in the cash example.  All this in a world where icecream vendors accept bitcoins on a USB stick, which is probably also the world where LEAs want to raid your home for bitcoin transactions.

PS: Of course I know that my example has side implications, like the risk of me (double-)spending the coins quickly before you can, and also that I must have had the precaution to fraction my coins beforehand so that I can "offline-"assemble an arbitrary amount just by arranging a wallet for you (without recurring to the blockchain), etc.

[kcmastrpc]

I believe the DEA are more interested in determining who the administrators of silkroad are at this point. If they can't figure it out, then they'll start targeting domestic dealers.

Anyone else notice the feds harsher stance on California since the debut of SR?

[the joint]

I think what I would say to law enforcement is this: money is information and as such can be sent anywhere on Earth instantly, with almost no cost, and in complete privacy.  Bitcoin or no bitcoin, this ability exists.  There was a time, not that long ago, when it was nearly impossible to track criminal activity using the financial system.  Law enforcement needs to understand that it's becoming increasingly difficult (if not impossible) to track criminals using the financial system and they need to adapt to that reality.  There are aspects of the legal code I don't agree with (in particular, I believe the war on drugs does more harm than good...and locking up people for prostitution is beyond ridiculous), but I do believe that we need a system of laws and law enforcement.  I want our legal system and law enforcement to be effective while at the same time respecting and protecting human liberty.

We need to recognize that honest people have a right to private transactions and that this right is essential to our liberty.  I believe that the founders of the United States could not comprehend a day where it was practically impossible for two parties to engage in a private transaction, yet that day is upon us.  Had they conceived of such a possibility, I am sure they would have taken measures to protect this right.  I find it ironic that a tool such as a computer and the internet affords us so many freedoms of communication and yet, it poses such a dangerous threat to this most very basic human right.  I believe that the next amendment to the US constitution should be one that protects the right to freedom and privacy in financial transactions.

My guess is that with the resources the US government has at their disposal (both manual and fiscal), not only could they probably find any silk road user if they really wanted to, but they could also probably locate the 1934 s penny that the user lost in a Walgreens parking lot on May 14, 1996.

[DeathAndTaxes]

My guess is that with the resources the US government has at their disposal (both manual and fiscal), not only could they probably find any silk road user if they really wanted to, but they could also probably locate the 1934 s penny that the user lost in a Walgreens parking lot on May 14, 1996.

Having worked as a defense contractor I would say the capabilities of the US govt are often over estimated.

It is more like:
The govt contracts to have a machine that locates pennies built.  It takes a couple years and millions of dollars but finally a contract is secured for $128M to have DOD penny locating machines mission ready in 5 years. 4 years into the project the administration will change and the new Secretary of Defense will make significant changes to the scope of the project (they now want it to locate dimes also).  Significant work will need to be scrapped and redesigned pushing the timeline back 7 years.  A couple years into the new project the CBO will report that prior estimates were invalid and the project cost has exploded to $1.3B.  Shortly before the project is completed major components will be completely redesigned and a new contractor will take over because now there is a "need" for penny locating machines to be "stealth".  Our enemies might be using stealth so we need to also.  Now nobody even knows what this vague requirement for "stealth" means so the project will be put on hold (but still burning $24M in taxpayer funds each year) while a separate project is launched to develop "stealth" technology.  Some years later (now two decades after original proposal) the stealth technology will be ready but it is incompatible with existing penny locating components.  Since that was outside the original contract it will be an additional cost.  A side note contractors are much better at writing contracts than the federal government.  The good news is integration will "only" cost $12M and take 18 months.  However ironically this is where Congress decides to put their foot down.  They end up spending $50M over 3 years in investigations, outside analysis, and contracts for alternative designs before concluding that while mistakes were made no laws were broken.

Finally the penny locating machines are deployed nationwide however 5 years prior the US mint had already stopped minting pennies and they are out of circulation.  A final contractor gets a juicy contract to securely remove the penny locating machines, dismantle them, and store the parts in case they are needed at some point in the future.  All together the project will take nearly 3 decades, cost $2.2B and never locate a single penny outside of testing.

[the joint]

My guess is that with the resources the US government has at their disposal (both manual and fiscal), not only could they probably find any silk road user if they really wanted to, but they could also probably locate the 1934 s penny that the user lost in a Walgreens parking lot on May 14, 1996.

Having worked as a defense contractor I would say the capabilities of the US govt are often over estimated.

It is more like:
The govt contracts to have a machine that locates pennies built.  It takes a couple years and millions of dollars but finally a contract is secured for $128M to have DOD penny locating machines mission ready in 5 years. 4 years into the project the administration will change and the new Secretary of Defense will make significant changes to the scope of the project (they now want it to locate dimes also).  Significant work will need to be scrapped and redesigned pushing the timeline back 7 years.  A couple years into the new project the CBO will report that prior estimates were invalid and the project cost has exploded to $1.3B.  Shortly before the project is completed major components will be completely redesigned and a new contractor will take over because now there is a "need" for penny locating machines to be "stealth".  Our enemies might be using stealth so we need to also.  Now nobody even knows what this vague requirement for "stealth" means so the project will be put on hold (but still burning $24M in taxpayer funds each year) while a separate project is launched to develop "stealth" technology.  Some years later (now two decades after original proposal) the stealth technology will be ready but it is incompatible with existing penny locating components.  Since that was outside the original contract it will be an additional cost.  A side note contractors are much better at writing contracts than the federal government.  The good news is integration will "only" cost $12M and take 18 months.  However ironically this is where Congress decides to put their foot down.  They end up spending $50M over 3 years in investigations, outside analysis, and contracts for alternative designs before concluding that while mistakes were made no laws were broken.

Finally the penny locating machines are deployed nationwide however 5 years prior the US mint had already stopped minting pennies and they are out of circulation.  A final contractor gets a juicy contract to securely remove the penny locating machines, dismantle them, and store the parts in case they are needed at some point in the future.  All together the project will take nearly 3 decades, cost $2.2B and never locate a single penny outside of testing.

My speculation is based upon the assumption that there is a lot of top secret stuff that some extremely intelligent people are working on.  If they can process the human genome, they can find some dude that leaves definitive traces of his actions through a computer.

[DeathAndTaxes]

My speculation is based upon the assumption that there is a lot of top secret stuff that some extremely intelligent people are working on.  If they can process the human genome, they can find some dude that leaves definitive traces of his actions through a computer.

I had a TS w/ SCI (well technically still do it just is expired) and worked for one of the largest defense companies in the country/world .  No doubt there are smart people in the govt.  There are smart people everywhere however the bureaucratic nonsense in the US government crushes innovation.  Most govt contractors are more interested in maximizing company profits (because that is what gets you promotions, payraises, and stock options) than delivering the best product to the government.    

Human Genome is an interesting project.  First of all it was run by a NGO (not the govt) but since it was funded partially by the US govt even there they managed to horribly slow the project down.

It began in 1990 and took 10 years to publish the rough draft at a cost of roughly $3B. In 1998 a private company spent roughly $300M and in 2 years ALMOST passed the public human genome project. The public program barely (by about 42 days) beat the private venture.  Now that is a good thing for human race as it put the data on the human genome in public domain but it kinda highlights the inefficiencies of any program the govt is involved in (and remember the govt didn't run the project, they merely provided oversight and funding).

Public program (w/ heft govt bureaucratic interference): $3 billion in funding, ~10 years to complete.
Private program:  $300 million in funding, ~2 years to complete.

[hashcoin]

I had a TS w/ SCI (well technically still do it just is expired)

Quoting extreme OPSEC failure before edit (if true).  I really, really hope DoD adjudicators would not clear someone who would do this.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Quoting extreme OPSEC failure before edit (if true).  I really, really hope DoD adjudicators would not clear someone who would do this.

Stating clearance is no violation.  It is listed on my resume (when relevant) which "gasp" has my real name on it.  Without "a need to know" a clearance can't get you a cup of coffee. 

BTW: Investigations are done by the fine folks at Office of Personnel Management (OPM) not the DOD.

[RandyFolds]

My guess is that with the resources the US government has at their disposal (both manual and fiscal), not only could they probably find any silk road user if they really wanted to, but they could also probably locate the 1934 s penny that the user lost in a Walgreens parking lot on May 14, 1996.

Having worked as a defense contractor I would say the capabilities of the US govt are often over estimated.

It is more like:
The govt contracts to have a machine that locates pennies built.  It takes a couple years and millions of dollars but finally a contract is secured for $128M to have DOD penny locating machines mission ready in 5 years. 4 years into the project the administration will change and the new Secretary of Defense will make significant changes to the scope of the project (they now want it to locate dimes also).  Significant work will need to be scrapped and redesigned pushing the timeline back 7 years.  A couple years into the new project the CBO will report that prior estimates were invalid and the project cost has exploded to $1.3B.  Shortly before the project is completed major components will be completely redesigned and a new contractor will take over because now there is a "need" for penny locating machines to be "stealth".  Our enemies might be using stealth so we need to also.  Now nobody even knows what this vague requirement for "stealth" means so the project will be put on hold (but still burning $24M in taxpayer funds each year) while a separate project is launched to develop "stealth" technology.  Some years later (now two decades after original proposal) the stealth technology will be ready but it is incompatible with existing penny locating components.  Since that was outside the original contract it will be an additional cost.  A side note contractors are much better at writing contracts than the federal government.  The good news is integration will "only" cost $12M and take 18 months.  However ironically this is where Congress decides to put their foot down.  They end up spending $50M over 3 years in investigations, outside analysis, and contracts for alternative designs before concluding that while mistakes were made no laws were broken.

Finally the penny locating machines are deployed nationwide however 5 years prior the US mint had already stopped minting pennies and they are out of circulation.  A final contractor gets a juicy contract to securely remove the penny locating machines, dismantle them, and store the parts in case they are needed at some point in the future.  All together the project will take nearly 3 decades, cost $2.2B and never locate a single penny outside of testing.

My speculation is based upon the assumption that there is a lot of top secret stuff that some extremely intelligent people are working on.  If they can process the human genome, they can find some dude that leaves definitive traces of his actions through a computer.

The government didn't do a damn thing to process the genome.

DeathAndTaxes, that is the best analogy I have ever heard. You, sir, are a poet.

[gewure]

I'm sure my username is strictly a coincidence.

 

[netrin]

I ask half of the people I chat with over PM if they have PGP. Mostly out of curiosity. It's sad that the majority of self-claimed crypto-currency enthusiasts are not prepared to protect their own communication.

[MaxSan]

I ask half of the people I chat with over PM if they have PGP. Mostly out of curiosity. It's sad that the majority of self-claimed crypto-currency enthusiasts are not prepared to protect their own communication.

That seems strange. 90% of my communication with individuals is encrypted using OTR. even people with no interest in cryptography (but dont like me shouting at them if they dont use it lol)

[cablepair]

TOR is not foolproof by any means and if you think the D.E.A. is not all over SilkRoad by now than your just being Naive. Don't forget fellow U.S. citizens about G.W. Bush's Patriot act. We have no rights at all in regards to privacy over the internet, and in this post 911 era being a drug dealer selling drugs online you mine as well be a terrorist because they can blur the lines so easy and turn one into the other.

The funny part is - its most likely safer to be a seller in EU then to be a buyer in the US.

[error]

All I want to know is, WHY in HELL did you CHOOSE to take a government propaganda class?

[Raoul Duke]

All I want to know is, WHY in HELL did you CHOOSE to take a government propaganda class?

Probably he didn't choose, he was forced to, even if he doesn't realise it and thinks it was voluntary lol

[the joint]

All I want to know is, WHY in HELL did you CHOOSE to take a government propaganda class?

It's a substance abuse class?

And it's an elective?

And it fits my schedule?

And it's easy?

[netrin]

D.A.R.E. taught that acid and mushrooms were bad because it'd expand our minds and we'd see and hear things that were not there. It wasn't science class, so none experimented.