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Author Topic: Help me DESTROY Bitcoin!  (Read 487 times)
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Kakmakr
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September 13, 2018, 06:01:07 AM
 #21

Ok, if I understand this correctly,

You are almost correct!

you want someone to deposit bitcoins into a digital wallet and the moment he/she "burns" that wallet, the software must award the person with another "token" from another Alt coin that you created.

Let's call it a "system" - something like a wallet but its entirely hosted on the 'internal network' of the "system".

At the beginning the internal network may only be compatible with a few coins or tokens and additional tokens / coins can be plugged into the system -so that when those inputs are enabled the same 'Phoenix' would also be available for those burning events.

So in a sense, you still want to destroy bitcoins by burning them, but you want to reward people with another token for doing that.  Huh Undecided

Yes, and there will obviously be a cap to how much phoenix can be generated overall so there is - in theory - a limited supply. In that way the early burners will get larger rewards. But the rewards will be locked in a way that not all of it is given away at once. That locked reward is something I'd like to call "Ash".
The ash system in the early days of the product would mature into Phoenixes at a much slower rate than -say 4 years into the project.
This way the early adopters are still rewarded well but not enough to make them whales.

Should this software also be "compatible" with other Altcoins, for a broader use case? <Something like the Lightning Network that can be implemented as a second layer on several Blockchain compatible coins or a standalone software solution?>

Let me put it this way :
In long term the purpose of this coin/token is to burn away excess digital assets. In a way I want it to not only be able to accept crypto inputs but anything and everything that has a "value" digitally.

Remember, value is something that will be determined by the usd price of an asset in the free market - which is another aspect of this project in the future - setting up a free market where ANY digital asset can be traded and "burned" to get Phoenix coins as rewards.

Ok, I understand the concept, but why would people want to burn a high priced coin like Bitcoin, for a possible lower valued Phoenix token? Will this be a 1 to 1 reward for the bitcoins that are burnt or would the person burning his bitcoins, get a equal valued amount of tokens for the bitcoins he burnt?

Say, 2000 Phoenix tokens valued at $500 for 0.07841 bitcoin valued at $500 <at todays value of $6 377/bitcoin> Huh

Is the exchange for burning bitcoins an economical decision or just a little reward incentive for doing it?

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September 13, 2018, 11:17:40 AM
 #22

Burning Bitcoin offline is easy. Transfer to a Drive and destroy the drive. Same with paper wallet, there you will actually get the satisfaction of burning it.
How will you prove your didn't make another copy? The only way to prove nobody can access coins ever again is by sending them to a burn address.

That's the solution I am looking for. To create a burn address system that will irrevocably destroy an existing asset and replace it with new Phoenixes / Ash.

Changing the topic a bit here But this isn't true 'burning' IMO. What happens when we master the art of quantum computing in the next 5-10 decades? A quantum computer will be able to crack these 'Burn' addresses and retrieve the bitcoins. What you are doing here is basically donating your bitcoins to person/entity who will avail these bitcoins in the future. Consider it a sort of smart contract  Cheesy

That's dumb. If the burned tokens are bought/sold then that will devaluate the generated Phoenix / Ash as well. The only way Phoenix will gain value is by decreasing the volume of other assets that are in limited supply to begin with and replacing them with Ash / Phoenix.
The point of this discussion is to get people who are interested in this idea to work together and build something new and better with transparency.

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September 13, 2018, 11:32:51 AM
 #23

Ok, I understand the concept, but why would people want to burn a high priced coin like Bitcoin, for a possible lower valued Phoenix token? Will this be a 1 to 1 reward for the bitcoins that are burnt or would the person burning his bitcoins, get a equal valued amount of tokens for the bitcoins he burnt?

Say, 2000 Phoenix tokens valued at $500 for 0.07841 bitcoin valued at $500 <at todays value of $6 377/bitcoin> Huh

Is the exchange for burning bitcoins an economical decision or just a little reward incentive for doing it?

That's the idea. There is no inherent value of Phoenix at the point of generation, but rather the value of the destroyed asset that would be destroyed to generate Phoenix. Which - would be decided by the open market.

To explain better, here's an example :
Say there are no Phoenix at the moment. So the value of Phoenix is 0 and ∞ depending on who wants to generate the first Phoenix.

To note, there will be XXX number of Phoenix that can be generated. No more.

Now someone burns 1 BTC in the system then they will be rewarded with and instant reward : Phoenix and some locked Phoenix rewards : Ash which will slowly unlock more Phoenixes for a period and then the Ash will itself be depleted. The generation/conversion power of Phonenix from Ash will decrease logarithmically over a set period of time.

Now, theoretically, for the first generation of Phoenix blocks :
1 Phoenix = Total Potential Phoenix Generated = Instant generation of Phoenix + Ash (Locked Phoenix) = 1 Btc's USD value at that point of burning - in the open market.

There will be no direct inflow of FIAT > Phoenix


So if you destroy $1m worth of Bitcoins for Phoenixes, then you will get $1m worth of Phoenixes.

Now, there will be bonuses for early generators - which is what I hope will be the enticement for investors. Then technically their 1 mil could be multiplied by the bonus they will get.

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jwaynedohnson23
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September 13, 2018, 12:25:17 PM
 #24

Burn address is the way to go man
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September 13, 2018, 12:28:17 PM
 #25

Quote
That's the idea. There is no inherent value of Phoenix at the point of generation, but rather the value of the destroyed asset that would be destroyed to generate Phoenix. Which - would be decided by the open market.

Well, the 'open market' doesn't work that way... More supply usually means lower price and each time someone burns a cryptocurrency more of Phoenixes come into existence, driving its price down rather than up. Locking up tokens could work in this scenario if you want to raise the price of Phoenix. But my question is if the people who want to destroy a coin for fun or whatever their fucked up reason is, why do they want/expect to get rewarded?

Listen mate! Don't like the idea then stop fucking around in this thread. Ask nicely and you will be explained. I'm not going to sit here and read your fucked up language. Clear?

-
After being an economics student and being a forex/crypto trader for the last 7 - 9 years I think I have an understanding of how open market works.

-
You got part of it correct.

Increasing supply does decrease price but there is 0 supply to begin with and there can only be a certain number of Phoenix that will exist. Ever. So if you don't want Phoenix then keep holding on to your asset and never bother. Phoenix for you will not exist.

The concept is :

There is a non-stop increase in digital assets especially cryptos. That's equivalent to an uncontrollable rate of inflation.
As FIAT will keep getting produced by the governments and someone or the other with a large bucket of FIAT currency will invest in some altcoin out there. Resulting in more money being created out of no where.
There is no system in place in the crypto-verse where this steady inflow of money is countered with a steady reduction in the amount of available money and digital assets in the crypto-world.


Burn address is the way to go man

If you read everything then you will realize the whole project is way more complicated than what a simple burn address would be able to accomplish.

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September 13, 2018, 12:47:53 PM
 #26

Quote
Listen mate! Don't like the idea then stop fucking around in this thread. Ask nicely and you will be explained. I'm not going to sit here and read your fucked up language. Clear?

Quote
But my question is if the people who want to destroy a coin for fun or whatever their fucked up reason is, why do they want/expect to get rewarded?

First of all, this wasn't pointed at you. I was referring to other people who would want to burn up their coins. Second, I do like the idea of 'reduction in supply', I have studied economics myself. Anyway if you feel like I overstepped, Apologies. I am not one of those assholes who would feel belittled by apologizing. Anyway moving on.

Quote
there can only be a certain number of Phoenix that will exist.
Got it, But what happens when the Last Phoenix is given out? How will the burning work then? Bitcoin has 'fees' which will reward the miners, What will the 'burners' have?


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legendster
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September 13, 2018, 12:59:42 PM
 #27

First of all, this wasn't pointed at you. I was referring to other people who would want to burn up their coins. Second, I do like the idea of 'reduction in supply', I have studied economics myself. Anyway if you feel like I overstepped, Apologies. I am not one of those assholes who would feel belittled by apologizing. Anyway moving on.

I have a low tolerance for BS. Nothing personal. Let's move on.  Smiley

Quote
there can only be a certain number of Phoenix that will exist.
Got it, But what happens when the Last Phoenix is given out? How will the burning work then? Bitcoin has 'fees' which will reward the miners, What will the 'burners' have?

Good question.

What would happen to Bitcoin if the last one is mined? Bitcoin will continue to exist but there will no longer be any more mineable coins.

Same theory applies here. The total available supply for Phoenix would equal to the total circulating supply of Phoenix. Having burnt other coins to come to existence.

The burn system can then be used to burn Phoenix themselves. Burning Phoenix at that point would remove that Phoenix from the circulating supply and release them over a longer period of time, this could be incrementally longer each time the burn event occurs. This would also temporarily boost the then value of Phoenix as there would be a reduction in the total number of circulating Phoenix.

Early burners would get a extra Phoenix in Ash the amount of reward for burning would keep decreasing until at last when nearing the total supply of Phoenix at which point the excess reward would be 0.

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September 13, 2018, 01:39:00 PM
 #28

Dang, you got me with the clickbait.  What's the progress on this so far?

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September 13, 2018, 01:43:10 PM
 #29

Quote
I have a low tolerance for BS. Nothing personal. Let's move on.  Smiley

Cool Smiley

Quote
The burn system can then be used to burn Phoenix themselves. Burning Phoenix at that point would remove that Phoenix from the circulating supply and release them over a longer period of time, this could be incrementally longer each time the burn event occurs. This would also temporarily boost the then value of Phoenix as there would be a reduction in the total number of circulating Phoenix.

Early burners would get a extra Phoenix in Ash the amount of reward for burning would keep decreasing until at last when nearing the total supply of Phoenix at which point the excess reward would be 0.

Hmm, So if i understand this correctly Phoenix will work something like this.

1) Early burners would get Phoenix plus the 'promised' ash.
2) People will keep burning cryptos till the last phoenix is given out.
3) The 'Promised' ashs in the meanwhile will keep evolving into 'Phoenixes'.

Will these 'evolved' Phoenixes generate new 'ashs'? Have you thought of something to make this a continuous process instead of it stopping at one stage?

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legendster
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September 13, 2018, 01:45:12 PM
 #30

Dang, you got me with the clickbait.  What's the progress on this so far?

Just an idea so far.

First off I'd need some people to put up the skeleton. Build the system on the cak of php / perl / with any robust database system that can handle the burning system.
At the least, I need people to help me establish the first proof of concept, so I can prepare a proper pitch deck and reach out to more VCs

Also people with deep pockets that may want to jump in early would help accelerate this faster.


But getting the right people on board to mould this out of nothing is the initial goal - which is the point of this thread.



Hmm, So if i understand this correctly Phoenix will work something like this.

1) Early burners would get Phoenix plus the 'promised' ash.
2) People will keep burning cryptos till the last phoenix is given out.
3) The 'Promised' ashs in the meanwhile will keep evolving into 'Phoenixes'.

Will these 'evolved' Phoenixes generate new 'ashs'? Have you thought of something to make this a continuous process instead of it stopping at one stage?

Ash is not 'promised' it's locked Phoenix(es). It will evolve on it's own.

And no, Ash is only obtained when something is burnt.

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September 18, 2018, 03:34:48 PM
 #31

Bump


Still looking for compatible and competent people to get this off ground. PM me and we will talk either on Discord or Telegram ( depending on my electricty situation Roll Eyes )

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September 18, 2018, 08:31:42 PM
 #32

Firstly, the title of your post "help me destroy bitcoin" attracted my click. The ideology is impressive but would need professional blockchain knowledge to achieve it.

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September 19, 2018, 09:18:53 AM
 #33

The idea is interesting, but I can not see the value of it in the end.

First- why in hell someone would destroy a coin if you can pay caffe or anything with it?
          -If I want to destroy it coos I`m like I`m and that's fine, Why would I want the value back in another Coin?

Second- There must be at least 2 devices running a blockchain to create a coin. why not just shut down all the devices you have and delete the data in they?
              Definitely not a universal solution.

very interesting topic in any case Smiley
  Will follow.



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xtraelv
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September 19, 2018, 12:44:04 PM
 #34

I think I understand the economic idea behind your plan which seems sound  but I suspect that you don't quite understand how wallet addresses work.

Effectively a valid bitcoin address is between 26-35 alphanumeric characters beginning with the numbers 1 and 3

Issues:
1) A lot of wallets will prevent you from sending it to an invalid address outside of that range.
2) If a transaction is sent to an address outside of that range it can still be potentially recovered (For example as a cross chain recoveries).
3) If a transaction is sent to a wallet address (regardless of what it is) it will by default have a private key that can potentially unlock it - regardless of whether it is known or not and regardless of whether it was initially generated from a a private key or not.

The private key and wallet address are related by a complex mathematical equation.

Bitcoin is allocated to a wallet address and that record is stored on the blockchain. A private key is needed to spend those coins (transfer them to another address) .

Regardless of what you do offline - the coins are stored online on the blockchain - every wallet has an associated private key or keys - regardless of whether they are known or not.

The blockchain is a ledger. A public record of transactions. A private key is the mathematically related secret alphanumeric passphrase associated with the wallet address that allows you to generate a message acceptable to the blockchain that provides the ability to transfer it from one address to another.


Chart source: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address


The aim is to destroy the consumed coins and be never accessible by anyone. Essentially taking them away from the market and in turn they would be replaced by these newly generated 'Phoenix' tokens/coins.
If you are interested in getting onboard as a coder, DM me, we can have further discussions about this.

And its not going to be a wallet ergo a single wallet solution.
The idea is to design a system that will consume inputs - tokens / other cryptos, irrevocably removing them from circulation and the free market.
AND in turn generating some new coins - Phoenixes.

If your concern is future recovery due to discovery of the private key there is a method to prevent this.
Rather than burning it to one address you can do it by sending dust. Effectively multiple output transactions sending the bitcoin in 1 or 10 satoshi increments to millions of addresses that of which the private keys are unknown. Making it economically not viable to recover. You could call it "Proof of ending" or "Satoshi Nakamotoed".  Grin

Currently (under RIPE-MD160 ) there are (2^160) 1,461,501,637,330,902,918,203,684,832,716,283,019,655,932,542,976 potential bitcoin addresses and  around 2^96 private keys whose corresponding public key hashes to that address

The total size of the multiple output transaction must be under 100K bytes or it will not be included in blocks or relayed on the network.
A compressed pubkey p2pkh is 146 bytes and an uncompressed pubkey p2pkh is 178 bytes.
Source: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_to_cheaply_consolidate_coins_to_reduce_miner_fees



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September 25, 2018, 11:33:20 PM
 #35

What if we created the inverse of what a blockchain proof of work or proof of stake system does.

You would send those coins that needed to be burned to the Phoenix blockchain (atomic swap?) which can be viewed as it's an open ledger. The blockchain would create a wallet and encrypt the privkey on the blockchain. With every new block on the chain is simply another layer of encryption that would need to be decrypted.

I believe this can be done and even perhaps reversible, which would make it interesting as then it's basically a cryptographic wallet on the blockchain for all coins using the Phoenix blockchain. I'd imagine this can be done for loans for example or gambling.
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October 03, 2018, 12:38:36 AM
 #36

What if we created the inverse of what a blockchain proof of work or proof of stake system does.

You would send those coins that needed to be burned to the Phoenix blockchain (atomic swap?) which can be viewed as it's an open ledger. The blockchain would create a wallet and encrypt the privkey on the blockchain. With every new block on the chain is simply another layer of encryption that would need to be decrypted.

I believe this can be done and even perhaps reversible, which would make it interesting as then it's basically a cryptographic wallet on the blockchain for all coins using the Phoenix blockchain. I'd imagine this can be done for loans for example or gambling.


Interesting but I have a similar but distinct plan, I'll explain this feature later, but for now I can say is that my 'way' does not stray into the lending aspect.

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October 03, 2018, 12:50:12 AM
 #37

I think I understand the economic idea behind your plan which seems sound  but I suspect that you don't quite understand how wallet addresses work.

I do understand what you are infering to but I can assure you that you are not correct in your assessment.

Effectively a valid bitcoin address is between 26-35 alphanumeric characters beginning with the numbers 1 and 3

And I have said nothing about transacting inputs / outputs between wallets of different types / incompatible wallets.
Essentially the system will have gateways to accept various forms of cryptos (and later digital assets) which would channel to the correct addresses. And I think I have an idea on how to execute it, I just need someone to do it for me who understands this better than me and preferably makes a living out of this (software engg. / coder)

Issues:
1) A lot of wallets will prevent you from sending it to an invalid address outside of that range.
2) If a transaction is sent to an address outside of that range it can still be potentially recovered (For example as a cross chain recoveries).
3) If a transaction is sent to a wallet address (regardless of what it is) it will by default have a private key that can potentially unlock it - regardless of whether it is known or not and regardless of whether it was initially generated from a a private key or not.

Again, I never planned to accept multiple assets into one single wallet as I have explained above thats not how it'll work.

If your concern is future recovery due to discovery of the private key there is a method to prevent this.

Something that works with Btc might not work with a different assets.


Rather than burning it to one address you can do it by sending dust. Effectively multiple output transactions sending the bitcoin in 1 or 10 satoshi increments to millions of addresses that of which the private keys are unknown. Making it economically not viable to recover. You could call it "Proof of ending" or "Satoshi Nakamotoed".  Grin

Currently (under RIPE-MD160 ) there are (2^160) 1,461,501,637,330,902,918,203,684,832,716,283,019,655,932,542,976 potential bitcoin addresses and  around 2^96 private keys whose corresponding public key hashes to that address
The total size of the multiple output transaction must be under 100K bytes or it will not be included in blocks or relayed on the network.
A compressed pubkey p2pkh is 146 bytes and an uncompressed pubkey p2pkh is 178 bytes.
Source: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_to_cheaply_consolidate_coins_to_reduce_miner_fees

A huge bottle necking of transactions would eventually happen which will make this process incredibly inefficient. Again, you are only thinking in terms of btc.


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October 03, 2018, 01:13:53 AM
 #38

At this point, I have interacted with many experts on the subject and I think I have a clear goal ahead of me.

Step 1 : Create an altcoin / token preferably an erc20 or waves token.  THIS IS NOT THE PHOENIX PROJECT THAT I HAVE ENVISIONED HERE.
Planning to call it SuRaJ Coin
Suraj is the hindi word for sun. Seems fitting that the sun will bring the phoenix into existence.

Step 2 : Plan and implement an incentivized revenue generation system for that token. 100% of SRJ coin's revenue would be used to fund the Phoenix project and create the system that I have talked about so far.

Step 3 : Fully commit to Phoenix Project and get it functional within a reasonable timeframe. Use the revenue from SRJ Coin to pay the team members.

Step 4 : Once the Phoenix project is successfully launched and realized, the revenue generated from SRJ Coin would be redirected to other efforts that may or may not be related to Phoenix project (still undecided about this part)


Holders of SRJ Coin would be incentivized within the Phoenix project. How? I am not sure yet. Details will be revealed as I sketch them up.
I think this is the best and most transparent way of raising the colossal amount of funds required for the Phoenix project. If someone has a better suggestion, please let me know.

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October 04, 2018, 08:57:30 PM
 #39

I think this is a good idea. Not only would it introduce a new asset, but that asset would help all the others climb in price, due too decreasing supply, while leaving demand at its current state.
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October 13, 2018, 02:32:26 PM
 #40

If anyone is interested in taking this project seriously then you need to head over to https://discord.gg/kNWzu2K

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