Merit system causes more SPAM not less

[BigBrother]

I think the merit system is up to the task. Those people who cant write anything useful do yourself a few accounts Junior members and participate in the bounty. Some try to collect merit and to upgrade your rank. It's everyone's business which way to choose.

[1713495245]

1713495245

[1713495245]

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[Ultimist]

Are you sure you read all of his posting history?
Look at this page, all the proof of joining airdrops and bounties：https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1041404;sa=showPosts;start=120
Of course, I also admit that the quality of his post has gradually improved, so I think that as long as he insists on doing so, he can still improve the rank.

I generally don't give out merits to anyone who has a lot of bounty and airdrop reports in their history, but the OP seems to be making an effort to improve his post quality and people have been especially generous to me the last few days as I reached and crossed 100 merits so I'm spreading the love around.

However, if the OP goes back to his shameful, bounty-loving ways then you can bet I won't make the same mistake twice.

What's wrong with a man having a lot of bounty reports in history? If he writes some useful post that you like, you still won't let him merit because there are a lot of bounty reports in his message history?

[gracejohnsonstar]

This is nothing new and have been discussed several times.
This fact will not make merits go away, it would most likely make other changes to be made.
Several high ranking members have already discussed some ideas in META, whihc in my mind would be a HUGE plus for forum:

• Disable signatures for all Jr.Members who have no merit at all.
• Or disable them for good.

I feel this your opinion speaks selfishness. That you have the merits to attain the member position doesn't mean you have more quality threads or replies than other people who are still in the junior member rank. Allow everyone to benefit from what you are benefiting... don't block the road for others just because u have something they don't have.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

This is certainly a plausible scenario, and I'm sure some people are doing exactly what OP described--but I'm more inclined to think that these spammers are more likely to find a high-ranked account for sale than to do all that extra work.  That's my feeling; I have no hard data to support it.  I would certainly recognize that the spam problem hasn't exactly abated since the merit system's inception, but I'm not sure it's really gotten worse.  Bitcointalk has been pretty bad quality-wise since I've been a member here, which has been about 3.5 years now.

But because the alt account spamming IS happening, that's why there needs to be a merit requirement for the Newbie-->Jr. Member transition.  That will introduce its own set of abuses, of course (like merit selling), but at least it would be a small barrier to prevent these idiots from getting into bounties so quickly.  This is not a new idea, and hilariousandco has been throwing it out there for at least a couple of months.  Ultimately Theymos has to make the call on whether to do it, and I don't think he's leaning towards it.

[priscadavids]

Personally, I think the merit system is good and shouldn't be scrapped out. Spamming can cause a whole lot to a good system and bounty managers should know how to engage the rules in signature campaign so as not to get users to spam.

[MagicSmoker]

I generally don't give out merits to anyone who has a lot of bounty and airdrop reports in their history, but the OP seems to be making an effort to improve his post quality and people have been especially generous to me the last few days as I reached and crossed 100 merits so I'm spreading the love around.

However, if the OP goes back to his shameful, bounty-loving ways then you can bet I won't make the same mistake twice.

What's wrong with a man having a lot of bounty reports in history? If he writes some useful post that you like, you still won't let him merit because there are a lot of bounty reports in his message history?

I'm free to use my merits in any damn way I feel like... yougottaproblemwiththat?

[Thirdspace]

Newbie comes onto the forum and starts snooping around because he heard about bounties.  He wants to make some cash and he wants some cash right now.  He starts trying to sign up and realizes he needs to be a jr member to participate.  Here comes your first influx of SPAM.  

most of them (spammers), if not all, will get nuked or banned before they get to Member rank
Jr Member maybe easily attainable because the lack of merit requirement,
but any manager wouldn't accept him in the signature campaign with near low quality posts (even if he manages not to get banned)

A day later he realizes why he came here in the first place.  He needs damn money.  So the light bulb goes off.  Well if a hero member gets 8 stake and a jr member gets 1 there is only one thing left to do if I'm to make it as a bounty hunter.  Multiple accounts!

make sense... but bounty position is usually available in limited number
he would have to compete with other candidates to get selected

We probably have hundreds of people spamming the hell out of this board with multiple accounts and the merit system does nothing to stop the spam and it may actually cause more of it.  

I think merit does help reduce spams and account farmers to certain degrees
and it's no doubt there are users with multiple accounts,
but they who ranked up their accounts surely have good quality posts

[xtraelv]

So here is my theory.

<snip>

What do you guys think?

Now if this theory was accompanied by actual data to back it up then it could have some credibility.

This is what you are competing against: Bitcointalk – Posts per Day - evolution during past six months

The comments from moderators indicates that it is reducing the spam.

It has caused a lot of posts from users that don't have merit complaining about the merit system with all sorts of reasons why it should be abandoned.

New features take a long time to be introduced on the forum. Unless the merit system causes the wheels to fall off - you can be assured that it is here to stay.

I've personally seen a reduction in spam posts on the patrol page. Not just due to the merit system but due to the good efforts of some of the spambusters and moderators on here.

Merit is not an instant fix. It is a long-term solution that along with nuking new spam accounts, banning repeat spammers, banning ranked accounts that spam and identifying account farming operations will eventually make it not worthwhile to spam.

Incentives to improve post quality also ensures that there is worthwhile reading material on here to keep attracting the good members to return to the forum so there isn't a brain drain that leaves the forum to the bounty zombies.

[Ludji]

I think there are just not enough people giving merit away. The merit system has matured and users are a lot more "stingy" than before. I think it's important to reward the small number of good users on the forum, so as to dilute the spammers and hopefully combat them. Meanwhile, a lot of the high ranking members now would not rank up so easily if they were in a position to start over. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the quality of their posts, I'm talking about the amount given out. I do realise keeping track of all the posts and quality users is hard work and I thank the active merit contributors.

A nice analysis was given here by user DdmrDdmr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5029372.0

Below is a graph from his thread showing merit awarded:



Having said that, I do believe ranks shouldn't be easily obtained and that the merit system is a great idea, just that the implementation is not fully there yet. In the long run, I'll think we'll regard it as a positive addition to the board.

[tranthidung]

Eight months after the start day of merit system and new rank requirements, I have not seen reasonable reasons to keep complaining about these twos, which obviously impressively affected most of forum users.
Personally, the forum has changed positively due to huge impacts of merit system and new rank requirements.

New comers will keep joining the forum, which in turn equals to new spammers. Not all of them will be spammers, but I believe that new spammers will join the forum for sure.

The fact is spammers will be kept at lower ranks due to merit system and new rank requirements.
Let's take it easy, let's spammers do their works (non-sense ones).
Constructive users, and someone who would like to change to be a better member of the forum will change the way they posting and contributing to forum discussions.

[Shishir99]

I don't agree with you.I have seen more spam and quality less post in forum before introduction of Merit system.It definitely reduced spam posting.If you think from positive perspective then merit system encourage people to make quality post.And lastly people who spammed before are also spamming now with multiple accounts.Merit system is only here for reduction of these.

[pawel7777]

<snip>
Several high ranking members have already discussed some ideas in META, whihc in my mind would be a HUGE plus for forum:
...

• Disable signatures for all Jr.Members who have no merit at all.

...

As one man once said - Ask and you shall receive

Enhanced newbie restrictions & requirements

Theymos: "Due to excessive garbage-posting, you now need 1 merit to be a Jr Member. All existing Jr Members who didn't meet the requirement were demoted. Also, newbies can no longer set any signature or personal text."

Also, there are 36 new merit sources.

[xtraelv]

I think there are just not enough people giving merit away. The merit system has matured and users are a lot more "stingy" than before. I think it's important to reward the small number of good users on the forum, so as to dilute the spammers and hopefully combat them. Meanwhile, a lot of the high ranking members now would not rank up so easily if they were in a position to start over. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the quality of their posts, I'm talking about the amount given out. I do realise keeping track of all the posts and quality users is hard work and I thank the active merit contributors.

A nice analysis was given here by user DdmrDdmr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5029372.0

Below is a graph from his thread showing merit awarded:

<snip>

Having said that, I do believe ranks shouldn't be easily obtained and that the merit system is a great idea, just that the implementation is not fully there yet. In the long run, I'll think we'll regard it as a positive addition to the board.

People who give merit away look for what users are posting.

Hey, I'm here to offer you the best Twitter service you've seen yet. With start times from instant up to 24h, you can rest assured that your order will be treated with the utmost care. Currently, everyone is struggling to provide Twitter followers, but I'm here to provide 100% guaranteed service. All orders are drip-feed to simulate real human behavior and to provide the best quality.

https://archive.fo/jxrFt

Sorry but someone who sells fake twitter followers ain't gonna put them on my merry merit list.

[nngella]

 
Unintended consequences?

What do you guys think?

Merit system producing spam?  I think not.  There is spam everywhere and there will ever be.  People are so creative enough to produce spams without being caught just in order for them to fulfill their bounty requirements.

On another note, I have a theory that the merit system is not reducing the spam users significantly (meaning much less that what we expect).  I just believe that the spam are being transferred from one board to another.  How? just now look at the Meta Board and you will see that people from the other boards before are going here because this board has a higher chance to get merit than any other board.  Hence, this board attract more users, meaning attract more spam posts.

[pawel7777]

...
People who give merit away look for what users are posting.
...

You're confusing purpose of merits with trust system. The former is related only to the post quality and member's ability of constructive posting and/or positive contribution to the forum - not as a judgement of his ethics.

If you think what he's doing is wrong - leave him a red trust rating.

[Ultimist]

I generally don't give out merits to anyone who has a lot of bounty and airdrop reports in their history, but the OP seems to be making an effort to improve his post quality and people have been especially generous to me the last few days as I reached and crossed 100 merits so I'm spreading the love around.

However, if the OP goes back to his shameful, bounty-loving ways then you can bet I won't make the same mistake twice.

What's wrong with a man having a lot of bounty reports in history? If he writes some useful post that you like, you still won't let him merit because there are a lot of bounty reports in his message history?

I'm free to use my merits in any damn way I feel like... yougottaproblemwiththat?

No. I was just wondering why you had such a position on this. I agree that everyone uses merit as he wants.

[MagicSmoker]

What's wrong with a man having a lot of bounty reports in history? If he writes some useful post that you like, you still won't let him merit because there are a lot of bounty reports in his message history?

I'm free to use my merits in any damn way I feel like... yougottaproblemwiththat?

No. I was just wondering why you had such a position on this. I agree that everyone uses merit as he wants.

Since you asked nicely this go-around, the people here with a lot of bounty reports in their post history tend to see the forum as a job - a place where they do their assigned tasks and get rewarded with currency - whereas those of us without bounty reports see the forum as a place to converse with like-minded weirdos individuals and, basically, have some fun. If the bounty report types have to write a certain number of posts per week then they will likely see those posts as work; conversely, I write as many posts as I feel like and do it for entertainment or education value.

It really is as simple as that.

[Zeneize]

So here is my theory.

Newbie comes onto the forum and starts snooping around because he heard about bounties.  He wants to make some cash and he wants some cash right now.  He starts trying to sign up and realizes he needs to be a jr member to participate.  Here comes your first influx of SPAM.  

We are now a jr member.  Things are looking good.  You sign up for your first signature campaign.  Earning time is right around the corner.  A few weeks in you realize the Hero members are getting massive stakes and by the end of the campaign they will get all the rewards.  You think to hell with this I'm gonna rank up.  Now the SPAM really starts flying.  

About a day or two into this the new user starts to realize something isn't correct.  Why am I not ranking up.  This is where he learns about the merit system.  The new user has a bad day as he realizes he has been locked out of this game.  The game has been centralized by the upper members.
 
The new user quits.  He says fuck this noise I'm out.  

A day later he realizes why he came here in the first place.  He needs damn money.  So the light bulb goes off.  Well if a hero member gets 8 stake and a jr member gets 1 there is only one thing left to do if I'm to make it as a bounty hunter.  Multiple accounts!

We probably have hundreds of people spamming the hell out of this board with multiple accounts and the merit system does nothing to stop the spam and it may actually cause more of it.  

Unintended consequences?

What do you guys think?

Before the Merit system spam in the forum was already spinning out of control, and since the spammers were ranking up with all their alts at some point they would have totally fucked up the whole forum. It may be true that some new sort of spam may have been caused by the Merit system, but other sorts of spam has surely been limited. With the merit system, spammers - at least the new spammers - will be confined at the lowest ranks. Moreover, with the latest change - 1 merit requirement for being a Junior Memner - all those new spammers will never rise above the level of Newbie, which could demotivate them from continuing to spam since as a Newbie you cannot earn money with Bounty campaigns.

[patz22]

This scenario is the reality I don't have any proofs but I know it is happening with or without the merit system or the new rule. For couple of months I always visit Meta to read but I can't stop myself posting this because it is being flooded AGAIN with this "I am a jr.member and got demoted to newbie thing"(1st when merit system was implemented).

Because of this new formula/pesticide, farmers (theymos and other mods) can easily remove or way of removing the pests(shitposters and account farmers) so that the tree/plant(forum) will grow and all people will benefit from it and I think it will work sooner or later.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

So here is my theory.

Newbie comes onto the forum and starts snooping around because he heard about bounties.  He wants to make some cash and he wants some cash right now.  He starts trying to sign up and realizes he needs to be a jr member to participate.  Here comes your first influx of SPAM.

We probably have hundreds of people spamming the hell out of this board with multiple accounts and the merit system does nothing to stop the spam and it may actually cause more of it. 

There's some sense in your theory but don't forget the administrators of the forum are working tirelessly to implement new rules and regulations to help better the forum by eliminating spam for good and so doing will return Bitcointalk to it's pass glory.
The merit system was introduced to reduce spam and from the stats so far it has. More additional rules will follow sooner.