A simple proof that Bitcoin has zero value

[fxsurfer]

You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.


Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.

No, that is NOT BTCs value but manipulation's value. If you were tricked to give million dollars to a scammer who sold you an empty box because you were convinced it contains an expensive diamond, that does not mean that emptiness in the box has value. It just means you've been scammed. Or in other words, scam was the thing that had value, and not the subject of the scam (emptiness).

Scamming object also has value according their scamming potential. Empty box with ALTCOIN logo on it and empty box with BTC logo on it have totally different scamming values, while BTC scams big time, many altcoins do very little.

In this case, scamming object is not bitcoin but computers that store blockchain, and in that regard bitcoin owners do not own these computers like box would be owned in mentioned diamond scam. So, in the diamond scam you would at least have the box that can provide you with some utility. It the Bitcoin scam you are left with useless numbers that can provide zero utility.

[1713561527]

1713561527

[fxsurfer]

I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?

Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.

Again, you do not speak for all homo sapains. But is there a reason you skipped the fact that physical bitcoins have intrinsic value? Or are you just choosing to ignore that fact?

Everything is physical, just like the dot at the end of this sentence. But, I've already explained that value comes from utility and not physicality. I have no interest to respond to things I already disproved.

Wow that’s rich. You have not disproved that physical bitcoins don’t have intrinsic value. But this must have hit to close to home so I don’t blame you for giving up. You just lost the fight you picked.

Yes I have. You can't eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, or legally enforce physical bitcoins, so they don’t have intrinsic value. Intrinsic value of a paper Bitcoin would be contained in the paper, and not in the name you put on this paper (BTC).

[dohh]

You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.


Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.

No, that is NOT BTCs value but manipulation's value. If you were tricked to give million dollars to a scammer who sold you an empty box because you were convinced it contains an expensive diamond, that does not mean that emptiness in the box has value. It just means you've been scammed. Or in other words, scam was the thing that had value, and not the subject of the scam (emptiness).

Scamming object also has value according their scamming potential. Empty box with ALTCOIN logo on it and empty box with BTC logo on it have totally different scamming values, while BTC scams big time, many altcoins do very little.

In this case, scamming object is not bitcoin but computers that store blockchain, and in that regard bitcoin owners do not own these computers like box would be owned in mentioned diamond scam. So, in the diamond scam you would at least have the box that can provide you with some utility. It the Bitcoin scam you are left with useless numbers that can provide zero utility.

Not object, but subject.

As for (scamming) value, they both have value - each coin itself and hardware, that accounts coins. Why coin? Because You need to "hand over" something to get money from Greater Fool. Let it be digital code. In BTC case, it is well promoted, branded and pumped piece of code!

As we agreed few posts ago, value is subjective and therefore You can not tell, that BTC as an object has no value, because this statement is general. You may say, BTC has no value for You. If BTC as an object had no value universally, You could easily gather all BTCs into Your wallet for 1 dollar, because You would be paying more than, their value is.

[dohh]

I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?

Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.

Again, you do not speak for all homo sapains. But is there a reason you skipped the fact that physical bitcoins have intrinsic value? Or are you just choosing to ignore that fact?

Everything is physical, just like the dot at the end of this sentence. But, I've already explained that value comes from utility and not physicality. I have no interest to respond to things I already disproved.

Wow that’s rich. You have not disproved that physical bitcoins don’t have intrinsic value. But this must have hit to close to home so I don’t blame you for giving up. You just lost the fight you picked.

Yes I have. You can't eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, or legally enforce physical bitcoins, so they don’t have intrinsic value. Intrinsic value of a paper Bitcoin would be contained in the paper, and not in the name you put on this paper (BTC).

You misuse term "intrinsic value", thats why its very hard to argue with You. Try to give widely accepted definition of "intrinsic value", maybe wikipedia, businessdictionary or cambridge dictionary etc?

If You mean that, it has no fundamental value, as no hope for creating healthy income in future, then yes, I agree with You. It has none. At the same time it most definitely has net realizable value. Thats definitely a value too! My wallet, is more valuable, than Yours if it has more coins in it, that are eligible for cashing out. Doesnt matter, how You call that value.

[fxsurfer]

You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.


Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.

No, that is NOT BTCs value but manipulation's value. If you were tricked to give million dollars to a scammer who sold you an empty box because you were convinced it contains an expensive diamond, that does not mean that emptiness in the box has value. It just means you've been scammed. Or in other words, scam was the thing that had value, and not the subject of the scam (emptiness).

Scamming object also has value according their scamming potential. Empty box with ALTCOIN logo on it and empty box with BTC logo on it have totally different scamming values, while BTC scams big time, many altcoins do very little.

In this case, scamming object is not bitcoin but computers that store blockchain, and in that regard bitcoin owners do not own these computers like box would be owned in mentioned diamond scam. So, in the diamond scam you would at least have the box that can provide you with some utility. It the Bitcoin scam you are left with useless numbers that can provide zero utility.

Not object, but subject.

As for (scamming) value, they both have value - each coin itself and hardware, that accounts coins. Why coin? Because You need to "hand over" something to get money from Greater Fool. Let it be digital code. In BTC case, it is well promoted, branded and pumped piece of code!

As we agreed few posts ago, value is subjective and therefore You can not tell, that BTC as an object has no value, because this statement is general. You may say, BTC has no value for You. If BTC as an object had no value universally, You could easily gather all BTCs into Your wallet for 1 dollar, because You would be paying more than, their value is.

Well, it is false information what is "handed over" to get money from Greater Fool, and it is this information what has value to scamers. Thus, it is not number (BTC) what is well promoted, branded and pumped, but false information that BTC has value.

Btw, I didn't say that value is subjective. I said that the degree of value is subjective.

[dohh]

You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.


Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.

No, that is NOT BTCs value but manipulation's value. If you were tricked to give million dollars to a scammer who sold you an empty box because you were convinced it contains an expensive diamond, that does not mean that emptiness in the box has value. It just means you've been scammed. Or in other words, scam was the thing that had value, and not the subject of the scam (emptiness).

Scamming object also has value according their scamming potential. Empty box with ALTCOIN logo on it and empty box with BTC logo on it have totally different scamming values, while BTC scams big time, many altcoins do very little.

In this case, scamming object is not bitcoin but computers that store blockchain, and in that regard bitcoin owners do not own these computers like box would be owned in mentioned diamond scam. So, in the diamond scam you would at least have the box that can provide you with some utility. It the Bitcoin scam you are left with useless numbers that can provide zero utility.

Not object, but subject.

As for (scamming) value, they both have value - each coin itself and hardware, that accounts coins. Why coin? Because You need to "hand over" something to get money from Greater Fool. Let it be digital code. In BTC case, it is well promoted, branded and pumped piece of code!

As we agreed few posts ago, value is subjective and therefore You can not tell, that BTC as an object has no value, because this statement is general. You may say, BTC has no value for You. If BTC as an object had no value universally, You could easily gather all BTCs into Your wallet for 1 dollar, because You would be paying more than, their value is.

Well, it is false information what is "handed over" to get money from Greater Fool, and it is this information what has value to scamers. Thus, it is not number (BTC) what is well promoted, branded and pumped, but false information that BTC has value.

Btw, I didn't say that value is subjective. I said that the degree of value is subjective.

Net realizable value is the bigger, the more coins You have, so it depends on their quantity as much as on deceived value for each.

If You agreed, that degree of value is subjective, then You basically agreed, that value is subjective. Because diminishing or growing degrees are at some point practically equal to zero or infinity at graph.
 

[fxsurfer]

I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?

Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.

Again, you do not speak for all homo sapains. But is there a reason you skipped the fact that physical bitcoins have intrinsic value? Or are you just choosing to ignore that fact?

Everything is physical, just like the dot at the end of this sentence. But, I've already explained that value comes from utility and not physicality. I have no interest to respond to things I already disproved.

Wow that’s rich. You have not disproved that physical bitcoins don’t have intrinsic value. But this must have hit to close to home so I don’t blame you for giving up. You just lost the fight you picked.

Yes I have. You can't eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, or legally enforce physical bitcoins, so they don’t have intrinsic value. Intrinsic value of a paper Bitcoin would be contained in the paper, and not in the name you put on this paper (BTC).

You misuse term "intrinsic value", thats why its very hard to argue with You. Try to give widely accepted definition of "intrinsic value", maybe wikipedia, businessdictionary or cambridge dictionary etc?

If You mean that, it has no fundamental value, as no hope for creating healthy income in future, then yes, I agree with You. It has none. At the same time it most definitely has net realizable value. Thats definitely a value too! My wallet, is more valuable, than Yours if it has more coins in it, that are eligible for cashing out. Doesnt matter, how You call that value.

I am misusing nothing. It is paper that gives you the ability to write on, or start a fire with, and not letters B, T and C. 

[dohh]

I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?

Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.

Again, you do not speak for all homo sapains. But is there a reason you skipped the fact that physical bitcoins have intrinsic value? Or are you just choosing to ignore that fact?

Everything is physical, just like the dot at the end of this sentence. But, I've already explained that value comes from utility and not physicality. I have no interest to respond to things I already disproved.

Wow that’s rich. You have not disproved that physical bitcoins don’t have intrinsic value. But this must have hit to close to home so I don’t blame you for giving up. You just lost the fight you picked.

Yes I have. You can't eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, or legally enforce physical bitcoins, so they don’t have intrinsic value. Intrinsic value of a paper Bitcoin would be contained in the paper, and not in the name you put on this paper (BTC).

You misuse term "intrinsic value", thats why its very hard to argue with You. Try to give widely accepted definition of "intrinsic value", maybe wikipedia, businessdictionary or cambridge dictionary etc?

If You mean that, it has no fundamental value, as no hope for creating healthy income in future, then yes, I agree with You. It has none. At the same time it most definitely has net realizable value. Thats definitely a value too! My wallet, is more valuable, than Yours if it has more coins in it, that are eligible for cashing out. Doesnt matter, how You call that value.

I am misusing nothing. It is paper that gives you the ability to write on, or start a fire with, and not letters B, T and C.  

And piece of code gives You ability to exchange it (at least with some people) against food, petrol or clothes, if You like... Paper or internet are just mediums.

Or if that is not good enough for You again, then piece of code gives You ability to carry (criminal, hyped) value with You in amount, that would not had been possible by carrying pure food.

[fxsurfer]

You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

Of course, for Satoshi and other early miners "BTC scheme" was very valuable. But bitcoin - symbol/number/byte that is connected to the name of John Doe is not valuable because of that. This byte was just used as means to transfer value from pocket of John Doe to the pockets of Satoshi and early miners. Numbers couldn't provide them utility, which is why they used BTC scheme to get that utility in things they can eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, please the aesthetic senses, legally enforce(fiat money), etc. Worthless numbers are left to people like you, who are as a result, forced to find value in valuelessness, by using a series of irrational excuses.


Precicely and that is BTCs value for Satoshi and early miners!

Now, there is not just Satoshi and early miners, but a group of relatively early miners, then mid-time miners and so on... For each of them BTC scheme scammed some money, therefore being valueable same was as to early miners, just in less amount.

No, that is NOT BTCs value but manipulation's value. If you were tricked to give million dollars to a scammer who sold you an empty box because you were convinced it contains an expensive diamond, that does not mean that emptiness in the box has value. It just means you've been scammed. Or in other words, scam was the thing that had value, and not the subject of the scam (emptiness).

Scamming object also has value according their scamming potential. Empty box with ALTCOIN logo on it and empty box with BTC logo on it have totally different scamming values, while BTC scams big time, many altcoins do very little.

In this case, scamming object is not bitcoin but computers that store blockchain, and in that regard bitcoin owners do not own these computers like box would be owned in mentioned diamond scam. So, in the diamond scam you would at least have the box that can provide you with some utility. It the Bitcoin scam you are left with useless numbers that can provide zero utility.

Not object, but subject.

As for (scamming) value, they both have value - each coin itself and hardware, that accounts coins. Why coin? Because You need to "hand over" something to get money from Greater Fool. Let it be digital code. In BTC case, it is well promoted, branded and pumped piece of code!

As we agreed few posts ago, value is subjective and therefore You can not tell, that BTC as an object has no value, because this statement is general. You may say, BTC has no value for You. If BTC as an object had no value universally, You could easily gather all BTCs into Your wallet for 1 dollar, because You would be paying more than, their value is.

Well, it is false information what is "handed over" to get money from Greater Fool, and it is this information what has value to scamers. Thus, it is not number (BTC) what is well promoted, branded and pumped, but false information that BTC has value.

Btw, I didn't say that value is subjective. I said that the degree of value is subjective.

Net realizable value is the bigger, the more coins You have, so it depends on their quantity as much as on deceived value for each.

If You agreed, that degree of value is subjective, then You basically agreed, that value is subjective. Because diminishing or growing degrees are at some point practically equal to zero or infinity at graph.
 

Graph is just a mathematical abstraction that cannot chage the utility of a thing. So, the appeal to graph is just one of those irrational excuses you use in order to find value in valuelessness .

[coffigayo]

In my opinion, you don't understand what value means and how Bitcoin has it, that doesn't mean that Bitcoin has no value. Because values can be made by demeaning people. Even though there are many buyers from Bitcoin sellers, the price may continue to increase or vice versa.

[avarnet]

In my opinion, you don't understand what value means and how Bitcoin has it, that doesn't mean that Bitcoin has no value. Because values can be made by demeaning people. Even though there are many buyers from Bitcoin sellers, the price may continue to increase or vice versa.

absolutely right and until whenever bitcoin certainly has a price even though it is a little and big. especially now that prices are increasingly rising certainly someday the price of bitcoin will make us stare and be amazed

[Perunex]

...
Actually, I am not sure he is just trolling. He has a solid, veeeery theoretical point. Imo, we are just abstractly, in theory, talking about "value" in general and bitcoin. In practice this debate is actually quite meaningless. It is still imo interesting debate.

I know OP from his other threads. Sometimes he is thought-provoking, I'll give him that, but usually he would just waffle around good old "bitcoin is worthless because it has no intrinsic value" rhetoric, acting like he has come up with something new.

In this thread he attempts to re-define the meaning of the word "value" to fit his narrative. I don't think there's a single country in the world that would allow you not to pay taxes on otherwise taxable income just because you take bitcoin as a payment, or allow you to hide your wealth in bitcoin from wife you're divorcing - because it has no value, right?
Any sensible person would rather adjust his definitions to be compatible with the rest of the world - but that wouldn't earn him 5 pages of replies.

But what does he get with the 5-6 pages of replies on his thread? His inner satisfactory and that's it?

His ability to provoke is quite something and this is also art. This thread is the proof. And if it is hard to debate him (even for wrong reasons) he probably is a bit intelligent person? At least a bit?


At the end of the day this thread is quite retarded...


P.S.: I don't know why OP stopped replying my posts...

[bones261]

The OP is correct. Bitcoin, in and of itself, has no intrinsic value. However, this does not prevent it from being P2P electronic cash. All you need is a community to agree that Bitcoin can be used a medium of exchange. Without a community that agrees to this, Bitcoin is basically useless.
Now one can argue that Bitcoin is not suitable as money with the following traits.

Is it fungible? For the most part. One can argue that you can distinguish one UTXO from another UTXO, and this history can be used to make one UTXO more valuable than another.
Is it durable? For the most part. I suppose one can argue that it is possible to erase all copies of the Bitcoin blockchain. Also, one can lose their private key, and no longer have access. However, the Bitcoins are still registered on the blockchain as UTXO. The entries have not been destroyed.
Is it divisible? Yes, currently it is divisible down to one satoshi.
Is it portable? Yes, in several forms.
Is it acceptable? Yes, as long as someone has a connection to the internet, they can find someone to accept it, ATM
Is it uniform? For the most part. However, the community obviously cannot agree exactly how much value a Bitcoin represents. Thus the high level of volatility.
Is it limited in supply? Well it is supposed to be. However, as we recently discovered, there could be code introduced that could effect this either deliberately or unintentionally.

[2fresh]

Well...trading government printed pieces of paper for goods might be more your thing anyway.

[halfmil]

I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?

Your belief is your personal problem.

Regarding people that would rather die. Value of X is not based on wants of some people, but on the ability of a thing to provide utility to human beings/humans/Homo sapiens. 'Wish to die' does not belong to the definition of Homo sapiens.

Everything that is made up of atoms can be traded between people but this is not what gives value to things.

Again, you do not speak for all homo sapains. But is there a reason you skipped the fact that physical bitcoins have intrinsic value? Or are you just choosing to ignore that fact?

Everything is physical, just like the dot at the end of this sentence. But, I've already explained that value comes from utility and not physicality. I have no interest to respond to things I already disproved.

Wow that’s rich. You have not disproved that physical bitcoins don’t have intrinsic value. But this must have hit to close to home so I don’t blame you for giving up. You just lost the fight you picked.

Yes I have. You can't eat, drink, wear, drive, sit on, enter into, or legally enforce physical bitcoins, so they don’t have intrinsic value. Intrinsic value of a paper Bitcoin would be contained in the paper, and not in the name you put on this paper (BTC).

No you can't eat or drink physical bitcoins but you are wrong you can wear or sit on them just like paper if you want. I'm not sure why you would want to but it is possible and that is a utility.

Functionally speaking you can embroider a bitcoin qr code on the inside of a jacket. Is that a bitcoin wallet or a piece of clothing. Depends on who you are asking. Technically it can be both.

You can't eat a piece of paper either but you can start a fire with it. Paper is also valuable because it can store information and this is also a utility. There is a difference between a blank piece of paper and one with information on it. One may have more value then starting a fire but this is still intrinsic value. Were all those tests you have taken blank paper or did they contain some type of valuable information on them? A piece of paper with a bitcoin address can store the same type of valuable information.

You are saying a piece of paper with a bitcoin on it is not a bitcoin it is just a piece of paper this is incorrect.

[thuyvy2207]

A hacker can theoretically deplete everyone's wallet, or exploit all the coins available, or do other global destructive things in a short order. Therefore, Bitcoin will be worth zero if we are not careful.

[bones261]

A hacker can theoretically deplete everyone's wallet, or exploit all the coins available, or do other global destructive things in a short order. Therefore, Bitcoin will be worth zero if we are not careful.

Yes, if Bitcoin is found to have a serious flaw and cannot reasonably be useful as a medium of exchange and/or a store of value, then it is worth absolutely nothing since it has no other purpose. (Unless it can be fixed before serious damage occurs. Or reversed altogether.) However, I do not think the people of Venezuela take solace by the fact that at least their paper money can be used as a cheap fuel for a fire, or make paper purses, when things get bad.  

[AliMan]

A hacker can theoretically deplete everyone's wallet, or exploit all the coins available, or do other global destructive things in a short order. Therefore, Bitcoin will be worth zero if we are not careful.

Yes, if Bitcoin is found to have a serious flaw and cannot reasonably be useful as a medium of exchange and/or a store of value, then it is worth absolutely nothing since it has no other purpose. (Unless it can be fixed before serious damage occurs. Or reversed altogether.) However, I do not think the people of Venezuela take solace by the fact that at least their paper money can be used as a cheap fuel for a fire, or make paper purses, when things get bad.  

I think there's no proof that Bitcoin has zero value, how can be a great coin become have no value if many people are still want to buy this coin and still hold some of them. If Bitcoin has no value right now then why is still in the market and still fluctuates, maybe some people misunderstood the current situation of Bitcoin that's why they say it has no value. And for me Bitcoin will remain valuable.

[squatter]

The OP is correct. Bitcoin, in and of itself, has no intrinsic value. However, this does not prevent it from being P2P electronic cash. All you need is a community to agree that Bitcoin can be used a medium of exchange. Without a community that agrees to this, Bitcoin is basically useless.

The OP didn't really make that distinction from the start. Now that the issue is intrinsic value, I'd agree. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. Satoshi himself made that point in his early postings. What the market uses as money never boils down to its intrinsic value.

Whether it has value is another matter entirely. That determination is up to the market.

[bones261]

I think there's no proof that Bitcoin has zero value, how can be a great coin become have no value if many people are still want to buy this coin

If no one wants to buy use it as a medium of exchange  anymore, then it has zero worth. The chances are probably small in the short term. However, can we really determine that in 100 years, people are going to still find Bitcoin has worth?

The OP didn't really make that distinction from the start. Now that the issue is intrinsic value, I'd agree. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. Satoshi himself made that point in his early postings. What the market uses as money never boils down to its intrinsic value.

Whether it has value is another matter entirely. That determination is up to the market.

It appears the OP will never get it. Therefore, we will never have the time to explain it to him.  I suppose we all can try though.