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Author Topic: A simple proof that Bitcoin has zero value  (Read 1229 times)
Ojengonggu
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September 25, 2018, 09:52:20 PM
 #121


I think there's no proof that Bitcoin has zero value, how can be a great coin become have no value if many people are still want to buy this coin

If no one wants to buy use it as a medium of exchange  anymore, then it has zero worth. The chances are probably small in the short term. However, can we really determine that in 100 years, people are going to still find Bitcoin has worth?
if we think negatively about bitcoin then zero value is the truth that might occur but seeing the progress of blockchain and cryptocurrency technologies that continue to be developed and used to be used for micro and macro industrial economics I am sure zero values will not occur
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September 25, 2018, 09:52:49 PM
 #122

...
I have heard that bitcoin has no intrinsic value countless times from naysayers but I don't think that is the case. Correct me if I am wrong but the bitcoins that are printed on paper that come out of those bitcoin atm machines with the qr code on them have every bit of intrinsic value as paper money has. As in you can use them to write on, or start a fire with ect.. matter of fact you can just carve a wallet address or put a qr code on anything you want like a bar of gold or like those physical bitcoins they sell that you can load the amount of BTC you want on it. Bitcoin does not have intrinsic value because it doesn't need to have it but anyone can give bitcoin intrinsic value by turning it into something physical they can hold if they want to.

I prefer different argument - What if some wealthy, trusted person/entity publicly and legally obligated themselves to "back" Bitcoin by exchanging 1 paperclip for 1 BTC on demand, disregard of the $ price. Now, by law, every bitcoin effectively have intrinsic value.

What would it change in practice? Perfectly nothing. Significance of intrinsic value is widely overrated.

Alternatively you could argue that the Bitcoin network (with its ability to transfer bitcoins, send messages, files, verify signatures etc) has its own intrinsic value. But to me, it makes no difference.

...
But what does he get with the 5-6 pages of replies on his thread? His inner satisfactory and that's it?
...

Could be a 'trolling' satisfaction. Could be a 'bear' trying to make his little impact in driving the price down. But if he starts a topic, shows some engagement, then go quiet, just to start same topic wrapped in different words - then I have my doubts about his intentions.

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September 25, 2018, 11:09:28 PM
 #123

You gave us a very good example. But there is one point that is overlooked. What determines the value of iPhone, Dollars, or IBM share? You have to think about it. There is an issue in economics. Demand and supply! The value in the market is where these two meet. So, you can handle the value of Bitcoin in this way. For example, I will not sell my Bitcoin without $ 50,000. If everyone thinks so, the price rises until the buyer offers $ 50,000.

I give you a different lookout. Whatsapp doesn't produce anything and when you look at it, there's nothing material about it. But they are making huge profit year by year. After Facebook purchased, their profit getting smaller but there are so many example like Whatsapp.

I agree with your example. Everything is relative. Any value can be viewed and evaluated from different angles. Everyone has benefits from his own opinion.
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September 26, 2018, 04:26:45 AM
Merited by bones261 (1)
 #124


I think there's no proof that Bitcoin has zero value, how can be a great coin become have no value if many people are still want to buy this coin

If no one wants to buy use it as a medium of exchange  anymore, then it has zero worth. The chances are probably small in the short term. However, can we really determine that in 100 years, people are going to still find Bitcoin has worth?


The OP didn't really make that distinction from the start. Now that the issue is intrinsic value, I'd agree. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. Satoshi himself made that point in his early postings. What the market uses as money never boils down to its intrinsic value.

Whether it has value is another matter entirely. That determination is up to the market.

It appears the OP will never get it. Therefore, we will never have the time to explain it to him.  Cheesy I suppose we all can try though.  Wink

I couldn't care less about the op or trying to change his mind. My concern with the op is his arrogance and trying to spread his garbage way of thinking onto other people because that is just sad and sad people try to spread their sadness to everyone around them. I would only hope people in the future do not buy what this person is saying when they read it. Half truths are not whole truths. Think for yourself.
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September 26, 2018, 05:15:16 AM
 #125

Bitcoins have value because they are useful as a form of money. ... In the case of Bitcoin, this can be measured by its growing base of users, merchants, and startups. As with all currency, bitcoin's value comes only and directly from people willing to accept them as payment.
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September 26, 2018, 05:31:43 AM
 #126

Bitcoin technology having an open source ledger has value in itself. Value is determined by both supply and demand. As long as there is value in the product or service, or even as a store of value or money. Bitcoin will have and will retain its value. We could say this about paper money as well, that money intrinsically in it's fiat format is jsut paper. The thing is in our world value is determined by its usage and by its demand and the current supply ratio to that. We cannot say Bitcoin has no value if there is a demand against the supply.


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halfmil
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September 26, 2018, 05:38:49 AM
Last edit: September 26, 2018, 08:39:09 AM by halfmil
Merited by pawel7777 (2)
 #127

...
I have heard that bitcoin has no intrinsic value countless times from naysayers but I don't think that is the case. Correct me if I am wrong but the bitcoins that are printed on paper that come out of those bitcoin atm machines with the qr code on them have every bit of intrinsic value as paper money has. As in you can use them to write on, or start a fire with ect.. matter of fact you can just carve a wallet address or put a qr code on anything you want like a bar of gold or like those physical bitcoins they sell that you can load the amount of BTC you want on it. Bitcoin does not have intrinsic value because it doesn't need to have it but anyone can give bitcoin intrinsic value by turning it into something physical they can hold if they want to.

I prefer different argument - What if some wealthy, trusted person/entity publicly and legally obligated themselves to "back" Bitcoin by exchanging 1 paperclip for 1 BTC on demand, disregard of the $ price. Now, by law, every bitcoin effectively have intrinsic value.

What would it change in practice? Perfectly nothing. Significance of intrinsic value is widely overrated.

Alternatively you could argue that the Bitcoin network (with its ability to transfer bitcoins, send messages, files, verify signatures etc) has its own intrinsic value. But to me, it makes no difference.

...
But what does he get with the 5-6 pages of replies on his thread? His inner satisfactory and that's it?
...

Could be a 'trolling' satisfaction. Could be a 'bear' trying to make his little impact in driving the price down. But if he starts a topic, shows some engagement, then go quiet, just to start same topic wrapped in different words - then I have my doubts about his intentions.

I agree 100% I do not think intrinsic value is what makes something inherently valuable. I have come across several people like the op and it seems that most of their entire argument rests upon this point and it is the cornerstone of their belief. My point is bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value or need it to be valuable but it can have it. They don't seem to realize this fact. And yes I agree it makes no difference in this case.

These people seem to talk about stuff they don't really know or understand. They claim to know how economics work and what has value so that gives them an authority on the subject but they never sent a bitcoin to a wallet address.

Sadly I would probably feel better if this was a troll or a bear because that would make a lot more since. The truth is there are people that feel this way and the only thing I can relate these absurd statements that they make to is higher education.

It seems that most of the people I encounter with this type of arrogance are people that have spent their entire life in school. They go to school for 17 years then they become a teacher and stay in school for another 20 or 40 years and the next thing you know they have spent their entire life in the system and have no other vision of what society is. They can't relate. They think they are somehow morally superior to people that have not spent 30+ years in school. These people are highly dogmatic. They seem to like to tell other people how uneducated they are because they spent enormous amounts of their time and energy in school and it would seem that their life would be a waist if they didn't use their intelligence to show the world how smart they are and how dumb almost everyone else is. This is just how I see it.

These people always seem to align themselves with an ideology but the ideology ends up defining who they are instead of the other way around. They cease to be an individual and become group think. They seem to latch onto anything anyone else says that furthers their cause. Almost like a anti bitcoin religion. They are never wrong about anything, although this guy surprised me when he changed his mind from value being objective to subjective.

What I have also found is that these type of people seem to be very elitist and try to speak for everyone on their behalf but they let others define themselves and for some reason they care about how they are defined it's absolutely ridiculousness.

There are people that don't have to prove anything to theirselfs and there are people that need to prove something to theirselfs. This guy is the later he is a farce.
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September 26, 2018, 06:11:21 AM
 #128

A hacker can theoretically deplete everyone's wallet, or exploit all the coins available, or do other global destructive things in a short order. Therefore, Bitcoin will be worth zero if we are not careful.

Yes, if Bitcoin is found to have a serious flaw and cannot reasonably be useful as a medium of exchange and/or a store of value, then it is worth absolutely nothing since it has no other purpose. (Unless it can be fixed before serious damage occurs. Or reversed altogether.) However, I do not think the people of Venezuela take solace by the fact that at least their paper money can be used as a cheap fuel for a fire, or make paper purses, when things get bad.  Cheesy






I think there's no proof that Bitcoin has zero value, how can be a great coin become have no value if many people are still want to buy this coin and still hold some of them. If Bitcoin has no value right now then why is still in the market and still fluctuates, maybe some people misunderstood the current situation of Bitcoin that's why they say it has no value. And for me Bitcoin will remain valuable.

This is a big issue lot's of investors and traders if the price of bitcoin will goes back into 0.
But i think this is impossible will happen to bitcoin,Bitcoin is already run in a many years and until now many people still investing in bitcoin.

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September 26, 2018, 06:28:30 AM
 #129

From my own point of view, bitcoin really has a value because you can cash it out into fiat money. The only difference is that it's a digital form where we can't touch it but its value is even compared to as gold. How about those people who got rich because of bitcoin?

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September 27, 2018, 07:56:12 AM
 #130

There is no need for much philosophy here. It is pretty easy to determine whether something has value, or intrinsic value, or utility, or whatever we wanna call it. All we need to do is answer one simple question: what an owner can do with a thing in his possession if no one wants to exchange any goods, services or money for it?

A share owner can participate in a company's profitability, cast votes in company's meetings, or be paid in event of a corporate liquidation. A food owner can meet his basic human needs. An owner of fiat currencies can get goods, services, or other property of borrowers since general non-acceptance of fiat currencies won’t make borrowers liabilities go away. An owner of a digital asset, like Microsoft Outlook or LibreOffice can send and receive email, or store, manipulate or format text. A car owner can carry people or goods between two or more places.

But, what an owner of Bitcoin can do? Well the answer is: NOTHING. Absolutely and precisely nothing. A bitcoin is a number. Number is an mathematical abstraction. An abstraction has no concrete existence, and that is the main reason why an owner of a bitcoin can do NOTHING with his possession if no one wants to exchange any goods, services or money for it.

And finally, if there is no way a thing can be utilized, then obviously it has neither value nor intrinsic value. Now you can carry on with your philosophy, mental gymnastics, and points of view to convince yourself the opposite.
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September 27, 2018, 08:57:47 AM
 #131

The value of Bitcoin actually can't be calculated by the numbers. That may be the thinking of many investors to influence the market price.
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September 27, 2018, 06:07:49 PM
 #132

A hacker can theoretically deplete everyone's wallet, or exploit all the coins available, or do other global destructive things in a short order. Therefore, Bitcoin will be worth zero if we are not careful.

Yes, if Bitcoin is found to have a serious flaw and cannot reasonably be useful as a medium of exchange and/or a store of value, then it is worth absolutely nothing since it has no other purpose. (Unless it can be fixed before serious damage occurs. Or reversed altogether.) However, I do not think the people of Venezuela take solace by the fact that at least their paper money can be used as a cheap fuel for a fire, or make paper purses, when things get bad.  Cheesy







Yes, and I do not think that people with crashed Ferrari take solace by the fact that at least their luxury sport car can be used as a cheap scrap metal when things get bad.  Cheesy




So, the point of your logic is exactly what? That fiat monetary "vehicle" is BS because some corrupt governments don't know how to "drive it"?
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September 27, 2018, 06:26:54 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2018, 10:02:23 PM by bones261
 #133

A hacker can theoretically deplete everyone's wallet, or exploit all the coins available, or do other global destructive things in a short order. Therefore, Bitcoin will be worth zero if we are not careful.

Yes, if Bitcoin is found to have a serious flaw and cannot reasonably be useful as a medium of exchange and/or a store of value, then it is worth absolutely nothing since it has no other purpose. (Unless it can be fixed before serious damage occurs. Or reversed altogether.) However, I do not think the people of Venezuela take solace by the fact that at least their paper money can be used as a cheap fuel for a fire, or make paper purses, when things get bad.  Cheesy







Yes, and I do not think that people with crashed Ferrari take solace by the fact that at least their luxury sport car can be used as a cheap scrap metal when things get bad.  Cheesy




So, the point of your logic is exactly what? That fiat monetary "vehicle" is BS because some corrupt governments don't know how to "drive it"?

Perhaps a better analogy is to compare fiat to a Pinto rather than a Lambo. A Pinto could have been wrecked by a bad operator, but it also had a flaw, that could be wrecked no matter how good the driver was.



I'm sorry, but the fiat "proof of debt" system doesn't appear to be sustainable. Once people or governments start defaulting on the debt, it becomes a mess. Even with the collateral, the banks just cannot recoup the losses. There are remedies, but rest assured there will be much pain before the remedies take effect.
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September 27, 2018, 07:00:34 PM
 #134

Bitcoin is not just an abstract number it means something. The same way a math problem is not just an abstract number. It has information attached to it. In this since it can be a utility also.
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September 27, 2018, 07:03:19 PM
 #135

Bitcoin always has a value the 0. The current value is the result of the development that Bitcoin has experienced over time. Bitcoin continues to grow and is accepted by many traders and investors as the real value of Bitcoin, and everyone agrees with that value.

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September 27, 2018, 07:17:03 PM
 #136

Bitcoin always has a value the 0. The current value is the result of the development that Bitcoin has experienced over time. Bitcoin continues to grow and is accepted by many traders and investors as the real value of Bitcoin, and everyone agrees with that value.


Apparently there is not much "agreement" since the BTC market is highly volatile. However, the fixed supply is "supposed" to mitigate this. Only time will tell if this actually continues to work. I'm still a skeptic. That's why I currently own less than 1 BTC and a few shitcoins.
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September 27, 2018, 07:49:42 PM
 #137

Bitcoin always has a value the 0. The current value is the result of the development that Bitcoin has experienced over time. Bitcoin continues to grow and is accepted by many traders and investors as the real value of Bitcoin, and everyone agrees with that value.


Apparently there is not much "agreement" since the BTC market is highly volatile. However, the fixed supply is "supposed" to mitigate this. Only time will tell if this actually continues to work. I'm still a skeptic. That's why I currently own less than 1 BTC and a few shitcoins.

I think that BTC is currently like a small raft floating in the ocean, as the ship grows larger the waves will have less effect on it. I can imagine if BTC ever grew to 200k or 300k and jumped up and down by 5k every day it would be a lot less volatile. But you are correct only time will tell.
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September 27, 2018, 08:04:31 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2018, 08:16:46 PM by bones261
 #138

Bitcoin always has a value the 0. The current value is the result of the development that Bitcoin has experienced over time. Bitcoin continues to grow and is accepted by many traders and investors as the real value of Bitcoin, and everyone agrees with that value.


Apparently there is not much "agreement" since the BTC market is highly volatile. However, the fixed supply is "supposed" to mitigate this. Only time will tell if this actually continues to work. I'm still a skeptic. That's why I currently own less than 1 BTC and a few shitcoins.

I think that BTC is currently like a small raft floating in the ocean, as the ship grows larger the waves will have less effect on it. I can imagine if BTC ever grew to 200k or 300k and jumped up and down by 5k every day it would be a lot less volatile. But you are correct only time will tell.

No, the only way BTC will get less volatile is if it actually starts having a real economy develop using it. Right now, only a few get paid in BTC for their work and can purchase all of their wants and needs with BTC. Even many people who manage to cover most of their expenses with BTC alone, actually rely on some method which converts the BTC to fiat. I am not convinced that BTC can really sustain an actual economy. Since it is limited in supply, this encourages hoarding. If too many people HODL, that is not much money flowing and makes for a poor economy. BCH and Lightning network claim to solves this by making the scaling better. However, if you just build bigger pipes, but you only have a trickle worth of water; you are still going to get only a trickle.
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September 27, 2018, 08:38:38 PM
 #139

Bitcoin always has a value the 0. The current value is the result of the development that Bitcoin has experienced over time. Bitcoin continues to grow and is accepted by many traders and investors as the real value of Bitcoin, and everyone agrees with that value.


Apparently there is not much "agreement" since the BTC market is highly volatile. However, the fixed supply is "supposed" to mitigate this. Only time will tell if this actually continues to work. I'm still a skeptic. That's why I currently own less than 1 BTC and a few shitcoins.

I think that BTC is currently like a small raft floating in the ocean, as the ship grows larger the waves will have less effect on it. I can imagine if BTC ever grew to 200k or 300k and jumped up and down by 5k every day it would be a lot less volatile. But you are correct only time will tell.

No, the only way BTC will get less volatile is if it actually starts having a real economy develop using it. Right now, only a few get paid in BTC for their work and can purchase all of their wants and needs with BTC. Even many people who manage to cover most of their expenses with BTC alone, actually rely on some method which converts the BTC to fiat. I am not convinced that BTC can really sustain an actual economy. Since it is limited in supply, this encourages hoarding. If too many people HODL, that is not much money flowing and makes for a poor economy. BCH and Lightning network claim to solves this by making the scaling better. However, if you just build bigger pipes, but you only have a trickle worth of water; you are still going to get only a trickle.

This is true, and I think BTC probably can only achieve a high dollar value if everyone starts using it. The more people that find use for it the higher the dollar value will be.

I think some things might change moving forward in the future for this to happen. If people realize that they do not have to pay income taxes if they get paid in BTC this might be a strong incentive for more people to want to get paid in BTC. The easier it becomes to pay for things with BTC the more people might use it. The most convent way I have seen people actually use BTC to pay for things is by loading BTC onto a prepaid credit card and use it just like any other card to fill their gas tanks or buy groceries ect.. as you say turn it back into fiat but I think online shopping is where it will really thrive in the future. I think there will be a future where we may not solely rely on cryptocurrency but there maybe a balance between crypto and fiat. I think this will be a gradual change in the future as more people use it the volatility will gradually change also.
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September 27, 2018, 08:45:53 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2018, 09:08:44 PM by bones261
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This is true, and I think BTC probably can only achieve a high dollar value if everyone starts using it. The more people that find use for it the higher the dollar value will be.

I think some things might change moving forward in the future for this to happen. If people realize that they do not have to pay income taxes if they get paid in BTC this might be a strong incentive for more people to want to get paid in BTC. The easier it becomes to pay for things with BTC the more people might use it. The most convent way I have seen people actually use BTC to pay for things is by loading BTC onto a prepaid credit card and use it just like any other card to fill their gas tanks or buy groceries ect.. but I think online shopping is where it will really thrive in the future. I think this will be a gradual change in the future as more people use it the volatility will gradually change also.



I live in the US and you are expected to pay taxes on your Bitcoin earnings. True, you may fly under the radar for your whole life. Much like people who work by getting paid under the table get away with it. However, if you get caught, prepare to have the government extract their pound of flesh from you. You can increase your chances by using an anonymous coin like XMR or ZEC. However, if you are buying goods and services or exchanging them for fiat, there is a good chance there will be a record of the transaction that isn't anonymous. I suppose you can uproot yourself and find a jurisdiction that won't tax you. However, how many people are really interested in moving to these jurisdictions? There is also going and living on a seastead.  Cheesy
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