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Author Topic: The new rule (1 Merit for Jr. Member) is already reducing spam  (Read 3280 times)
mocacinno
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September 19, 2018, 11:18:35 AM
 #21

My proposition was to filter out potential abusers using my script, then manually verify the list and only punish those that received merits for posts that are complete garbage...
This leaves the possibility the shitposter received Merit without buying it. The sender on the other hand is for sure guilty in this scenario.

Your project deserves it's own thread!

Yeah, there are still a lot of loopholes (which i won't list), i was just going for a way to discourage this kind of behaviour by filtering out the bulk of the potential abusers and holding them responsible for what they've done... That way other people might think twice before buying or exchanging 1 merit to get out of the "newbie hell" (source needed for the expression "newbie hell"... I don't remember who came up with the term, but it's my new go-to expression)


I might make a thread as soon as friday's merit statistics become published (i don't want to make a thread for a script that can't be used right away)... Sorry to have hijacked your thread, i'll try not to do it again  Wink

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MagicSmoker
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September 19, 2018, 11:20:47 AM
 #22

...
Also, i wanted to mention that i never proposed to automise a gut feeling by automising neg repping or ignoring. My script will filter out all POTENTIAL abusers and that's it (nothing more, nothing less). Since i'm pretty sure that a lot of those POTENTIAL abusers are in fact false-positives (since i'm pretty sure a lot of demoted users will have re-promoted on legitimate grounds).
...

Excellent idea! FWIW, I intentionally merited 4 newbies to jr. member in the wake of the bitcointalk snappening (c.f. - Avengers: Infinity War) and I'll admit that a couple of those posts were marginal, but I looked at their history and felt they were making a sincere effort rather than just spew crap in spam megathreads or post bounty reports (marginal because English clearly isn't their primary language). The posts in question are:

HappySun

NiklasFalk

b9ron

SpceGhst

This may help with context on some of the marginal cases; basically, some review of the merit receiver's post history might be necessary and that rapidly becomes too time-consuming to be practical.


EDIT - agree with LoyceV that you should make a new thread in meta about this.
LoyceV
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September 19, 2018, 11:28:02 AM
 #23

That way other people might think twice before buying or exchanging 1 merit to get out of the "newbie hell" (source needed for the expression "newbie hell"... I don't remember who came up with the term, but it's my new go-to expression)
I saw it first used by MagicSmoker, but the oldest reference I can find is Omega0255 more than 7 years ago.

Quote
I might make a thread as soon as friday's merit statistics become published (i don't want to make a thread for a script that can't be used right away)...
I'll update mine in about 48 hours. Theymos' original data will be a couple hours earlier.

Quote
Sorry to have hijacked your thread, i'll try not to do it again  Wink
No problem, I started it Tongue

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September 19, 2018, 11:32:48 AM
 #24

That way other people might think twice before buying or exchanging 1 merit to get out of the "newbie hell" (source needed for the expression "newbie hell"... I don't remember who came up with the term, but it's my new go-to expression)
I saw it first used by MagicSmoker, but the oldest reference I can find is Omega0255 more than 7 years ago.

Don't report me for plagiarism! I came up with it independently, I swear!!!  Grin

xtraelv
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September 19, 2018, 11:45:16 AM
 #25

The reductions are actually more in the other topics if you take into account the influx of merit related posts now in Meta.

Meta - one of the few safe harbors from spam has be decimated by threads about merit.

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September 19, 2018, 12:00:28 PM
Merited by vphasitha01 (1)
 #26

--snip--
I think @mocacinno will be able to scraped all the newbies who ranked up to Jr. Member from yesterday to today, but he won't(at least take lot of scraping) catch up the Jr. members who demoted yesterday but ranked up again within the same day.

Another thing we can't take decisions just by trusting our gut feelings as mentioned by @mocacinno. I don't know why people so bothered about to find out those demoted users and try to make a relationship between that one merit they got assuming only from a merit abuser. Why people couldn't create any script to catch the big fishes who awarded Merits with big numbers in perticulary in ANN threads rather finding needle in a haystack. I know abuse is an abuse wether it's one or few but we are playing waiting game when it comes to the big numbers.
--snip--

I wasn't aware off this thread yesterday, but since i accidentally stumbled upon this thread today, i wanted to take the time to reply.

My script CAN and WILL find all users that:
  • were junior members before theymos's rule change
  • AND were demoted because of theymos's rule change
  • AND received exactly 1 merit AFTER they were demoted in order to be promoted again

The only timestamp that's important is the exact unix timestamp on which Theymos made the code change... All other factors are unimportant. It doesn't matter if the newbie re-promotes the same day, or 3 days later... My script will filter them out.
The script works on LoyceV's full merit history to filter out potential abusers, after this step, it'll make 1 request per potential abuser. Even if 2000 people are filtered out, the script should still finish in about an hour  (2 seconds sleep every iteration in order not to overload bitcointalk's server).

Also, i wanted to mention that i never proposed to automise a gut feeling by automising neg repping or ignoring. My script will filter out all POTENTIAL abusers and that's it (nothing more, nothing less). Since i'm pretty sure that a lot of those POTENTIAL abusers are in fact false-positives (since i'm pretty sure a lot of demoted users will have re-promoted on legitimate grounds).
My proposition was to filter out potential abusers using my script, then manually verify the list and only punish those that received merits for posts that are complete garbage... If there is any doubt wether or not somebody received a merit legitimately, the user should be left alone (i'd even go as far as proposing we go trough his/her post history and see if there were other merit-worthy posts aswell).

Last but not least: catching the "big fishes" (the people that sent 1 merit to loads of demoted users) is also pretty easy to do... As a matter of fact, my script already keeps a list of the senders to potential abusers. It's just a matter of counting how many times each sender's uid pops up in the senders list... I haven't implemented this yet, but this implementation would just be 3 or 4 extra lines of code... No biggie...

If you want to get out those information, you can also run this query in this tool i made, once the data is coming out on Friday

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4551881.0

maybe adjust it as you see fit but something like this should be more than enough(i'm finishing to update the user ranks as well):

Code:
SELECT MeritData.Date, giver.Rank, giver.Username as 'Giver', receiver.Rank, receiver.Username as 'Receiver', MeritData.Merit,
MeritData.Board,MeritData.SubBoard, MeritData.TitleThread,
'<a href=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=' || msg || '#' || substr(msg,instr(msg,'.')+1) || '>Link Merited post</a>' as MeritedPost
FROM MeritData
INNER JOIN UserData as receiver ON receiver.UserId = MeritData.toid
INNER JOIN UserData as giver  ON giver.UserId = MeritData.fromid
Where (receiver.rank = 'Newbie' Or receiver.rank = 'Jr. Member' Or receiver.rank = 'Brand new')
AND date BETWEEN '2018-09-17' AND '2018-09-21';

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September 19, 2018, 12:22:35 PM
 #27

My proposition was to filter out potential abusers using my script, then manually verify the list and only punish those that received merits for posts that are complete garbage...
This leaves the possibility the shitposter received Merit without buying it. The sender on the other hand is for sure guilty in this scenario.

Your project deserves it's own thread!

I hope your works can be done as soon as possible @mocacinno. I am sorry to say that and it sounds kinda annoying but if the works can be done as soon as possible, then people can really use it to mark that "lucky member" so they can not advance to upper rank. At least I would do that if no one doing it, with my ignore button.

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LoyceV
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September 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
 #28

Meta - one of the few safe harbors from spam has be decimated by threads about merit.
I've never had to report so many posts in one of my threads in Meta before!

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September 19, 2018, 01:09:04 PM
 #29

This is just the beginning,the best results will come up in the upcoming weeks and months because now newbies were trying to create one quality post rather than creating 30 shitposts for being a junior member but once they got that 1 merit then the spam will comes again for this all bounties need to only accept the people above the members so the lower ranked people try to make only quality posts.

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September 19, 2018, 04:21:11 PM
 #30

There are three kinds of posts in bitcointalk.org.

1. Post for activity. For your activity to continue to grow, you are required to make at least 1 post every 14 days. This is required by all forum members. Some persons will just make a post to escape being redundant for a month.

2. Post for signature. members who are partaking in a signature campaign have a requires a number of posts per week to earn the weeks reward. Most under this circumstance are under pressure to make it up to the required weekly post counts. This group no doubt account for the high number of shitposts, spam post, trolling and so many other kinds of stuff.

3. Post for merit. It is obvious that the future of forum members is tied to quality posts. Some members have developed the nack for a quality post that will earn them merits and they are getting it.

Until this new rule, so many newbies and junoir members never thought it wise to learn and master the art of quality post. I won't be surprised if the analysis confirm my thinking in (2) above.

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September 19, 2018, 07:30:15 PM
 #31

There are three kinds of posts in bitcointalk.org.

1. Post for activity
2. Post for signature.
3. Post for merit.

Until this new rule, so many newbies and junoir members never thought it wise to learn and master the art of quality post. I won't be surprised if the analysis confirm my thinking in (2) above.

You've forgotten posts for merit begging, currently the meta is flooded with newbies suddenly realizing how great this new rule is and how good and Yada Yada.... and how they will contribute and Yada Yad .....trying to impress somebody, get a merit and go back to bounty hunting.

Back to the stats, I would love to see the daily posts made for this week as I'm pretty sure the number will continue to go down a lot. Some have not realized it yet (I'm sure of it!), some are making threads of what happened, some are flooding the board in desperation to get some merit, I wound't be surprised if the daily posts will go down by 50% by the end of the week.


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September 19, 2018, 07:41:52 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1), paxmao (1), DdmrDdmr (1)
 #32

All posts:
Code:
+----------+-------+
| Days ago | posts |
+----------+-------+
|        0 | 26510 |
|        1 | 42433 |
|        2 | 46736 |
|        3 | 54921 |
|        4 | 45271 |
|        5 | 48072 |
|        6 | 48926 |
|        7 | 46559 |
|        8 | 45886 |
|        9 | 49366 |
|       10 | 55894 |
|       11 | 47335 |
|       12 | 50829 |
|       13 | 53678 |
|       14 | 48648 |
|       15 | 49082 |
|       16 | 50333 |
|       17 | 57172 |
|       18 | 48595 |
|       19 | 52579 |
|       20 | 57679 |
|       21 | 40384 |
|       22 | 54342 |
|       23 | 56030 |
|       24 | 61043 |
|       25 | 48891 |
|       26 | 48744 |
|       27 | 50118 |
|       28 | 47206 |
|       29 | 51689 |
+----------+-------+

Deleted posts (not necessarily by a moderator):
Code:
+----------+-------+
| Days ago | posts |
+----------+-------+
|        0 |   749 |
|        1 |  3004 |
|        2 |  2430 |
|        3 |  1950 |
|        4 |  2275 |
|        5 |  2395 |
|        6 |  2836 |
|        7 |  3439 |
|        8 |  2743 |
|        9 |  3244 |
|       10 |  3793 |
|       11 |  5510 |
|       12 |  5153 |
|       13 |  5681 |
|       14 |  4870 |
|       15 |  5974 |
|       16 |  4685 |
|       17 |  5909 |
|       18 |  7518 |
|       19 |  7709 |
|       20 |  6472 |
|       21 |  5671 |
|       22 |  8891 |
|       23 |  7594 |
|       24 |  6634 |
|       25 |  6694 |
|       26 |  6433 |
|       27 |  5401 |
|       28 |  6260 |
|       29 |  5504 |
+----------+-------+

That's "24-hour periods from now", not calendar days.

There was a bug for the last ~7 hours which prevented all newbie posts, so that's going to make a big dent in the stats.

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September 19, 2018, 08:19:46 PM
 #33

....
My script CAN and WILL find all users that:
  • were junior members before theymos's rule change
  • AND were demoted because of theymos's rule change
  • AND received exactly 1 merit AFTER they were demoted in order to be promoted again
...
Maybe it should contain all the users who has received 2 merits or some more, or to do this check after you have finished the 1 merit list...
I think if someone farms a lot of accounts, and wants to distribute merits somehow unnoticed, they won't just pour all the merits from the same account to all of the farmed members but will send 2 merits to an account and that account will have 1 sMerit, so it can send it to another farmed one. It means in the end that the farmer has sent 2 merits and merited 2 accounts with it, so merit has not lost in the transaction...
Just a quick idea...

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September 20, 2018, 12:16:58 AM
 #34

It is achieving the objectives. The next step is to see if it can be kept this way with the existing automated or semi-automated surveillance.

Too early to say, At least we should wait for a month.
I am suspecting apart from Merit abuse, it might  trigger more quality post but  plagiarized ,text spin, para phrased post. All are newbies so none of them will not mind to be banned and start doing ban evasion.

As per Forum is concerned , I see these all demoted guys lost there privilege to post in "Serious Discussion" Board.
Can we create one more board like Serious Discussion (No increase in activity and post) but anybody having more than 100 activities can post. Might this board will be helpful to them to discuss things.

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September 20, 2018, 12:37:08 AM
 #35

There was a bug for the last ~7 hours which prevented all newbie posts, so that's going to make a big dent in the stats.

Sounds awesome. I'd call it a "feature" and put it in crontab to activate twice a day.

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September 20, 2018, 07:37:50 AM
 #36

As per Forum is concerned , I see these all demoted guys lost there privilege to post in "Serious Discussion" Board.
Can we create one more board like Serious Discussion (No increase in activity and post) but anybody having more than 100 activities can post. Might this board will be helpful to them to discuss things.
I doubt someone who can't earn a single Merit (before he reaches 100 Activity) has anything useful to add to Serious Discussion.

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September 20, 2018, 07:56:55 AM
 #37

All posts:
Code:
+----------+-------+
| Days ago | posts |
+----------+-------+
|        0 | 26510 |
|        1 | 42433 |
|        2 | 46736 |
|        3 | 54921 |
|        4 | 45271 |
|        5 | 48072 |
|        6 | 48926 |
|        7 | 46559 |
|        8 | 45886 |
|        9 | 49366 |
|       10 | 55894 |
|       11 | 47335 |
|       12 | 50829 |
|       13 | 53678 |
|       14 | 48648 |
|       15 | 49082 |
|       16 | 50333 |
|       17 | 57172 |
|       18 | 48595 |
|       19 | 52579 |
|       20 | 57679 |
|       21 | 40384 |
|       22 | 54342 |
|       23 | 56030 |
|       24 | 61043 |
|       25 | 48891 |
|       26 | 48744 |
|       27 | 50118 |
|       28 | 47206 |
|       29 | 51689 |
+----------+-------+

Deleted posts (not necessarily by a moderator):
Code:
+----------+-------+
| Days ago | posts |
+----------+-------+
|        0 |   749 |
|        1 |  3004 |
|        2 |  2430 |
|        3 |  1950 |
|        4 |  2275 |
|        5 |  2395 |
|        6 |  2836 |
|        7 |  3439 |
|        8 |  2743 |
|        9 |  3244 |
|       10 |  3793 |
|       11 |  5510 |
|       12 |  5153 |
|       13 |  5681 |
|       14 |  4870 |
|       15 |  5974 |
|       16 |  4685 |
|       17 |  5909 |
|       18 |  7518 |
|       19 |  7709 |
|       20 |  6472 |
|       21 |  5671 |
|       22 |  8891 |
|       23 |  7594 |
|       24 |  6634 |
|       25 |  6694 |
|       26 |  6433 |
|       27 |  5401 |
|       28 |  6260 |
|       29 |  5504 |
+----------+-------+

That's "24-hour periods from now", not calendar days.

There was a bug for the last ~7 hours which prevented all newbie posts, so that's going to make a big dent in the stats.
Of course there is an effect, but I'm sure it's temporary!
And in a week or two it will be necessary to make a rule - 2 merits for the jr. member.
And to solve this problem completely, I propose to introduce mandatory periodicity (for example, 1 merit per week) of receiving a merit by all active participants of the forum, regardless of rank.

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September 20, 2018, 08:01:09 AM
 #38

--snip--
And to solve this problem completely, I propose to introduce mandatory periodicity (for example, 1 merit per week) of receiving a merit by all active participants of the forum, regardless of rank.

We already have activity for this... You can only gain 14 activity every 2 weeks... I don't see a point in using the same technique for merits.

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September 21, 2018, 12:03:01 AM
 #39

Let's see what happens in a week or so, I do not think spam has dropped so much or am I wrong? I thought it would come to -50% but we are around 5-10% what do you think? how much do you think can go down?
The thing that seems more visible to me is the decline in deleted messages rather than the decline in written messages, but this is perhaps due to the fact that people are reporting fewer messages and therefore this value can be considered "untrustworthy".

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September 21, 2018, 10:44:36 AM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #40

Let's see what happens in a week or so, I do not think spam has dropped so much or am I wrong? I thought it would come to -50% but we are around 5-10% what do you think?
...

The data posted by theymos a couple days ago shows about a 40% decrease in messages from the day before the meritocalypse occurred (aka the snappening, bitcointalk edition), but my informal observation of spam megathreads over the last few days is not dissimilar to yours: more specifically, posts by newbies - ie, those without signatures - have gone down dramatically, but posts by copper and jr. members with signatures has gone up quite a bit, almost cancelling each other out.

Reporting copper/jr. members for spamming is far more rewarding than no-signature newbies, however, and will likely have a greater effect on reducing spam over time. Ideally, these shitposters will all resort to buying merits or copper memberships only to keep getting nuked for spamming/plagiarism; at some point they'll realize this is no longer a profitable endeavor, and we'll have won.

One can dream, anyway...

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