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 Author Topic: sMerits,Merits and quality : Where the gap lies?  (Read 283 times)
r1s2g3
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 October 01, 2018, 09:31:04 AMMerited by Jet Cash (2), TMAN (2), Don Pedro Dinero (1)

This thread is inspired by questions asked on my own thread Number of Merits generated (mathematically) ,sMerit participants – a worrying descending trend (!/?) by DdmrDdmr and a request for becoming "Merit Source" application that pops up in Meta every week.

I will  start with Merit Source "sMerits" and the potential to generate Merits mathematically, leaving all "Air dropped" merits behind.

When we have 80 merit source they have 17800 smerits =>  potential to generate 35588 merits.
When we have 84 merit source they have 19500 smerits =>  potential to generate 38998 merits. (Not sure about when they are increased
in June or before, but they are definitely  increased  in July.)

When we have 120 merit source they have 23045 smerits =>  potential to generate 46088 merits.
(For understanding the calculation , visit  Number of Merits generated (mathematically) )

Now , I will like to use the below graph/image by DdmrDdmr to continue my analysis.

Awarded Merit graph

I will start analyzing data from month of April, believing in 2 months all "Air dropped" smerits were used. (I know my assumption is wrong but definitely majority of "Air dropped" sMerits were used.)

02-04-2018 to 29-04-2018 =6542+5946+4449+4820=21757 ( Potential unlocked 21757/35888*100 = 60.62 % +7%=67.62 (added 7% because data
is of 28 days period, instead of 30 )

For May month
30-04-2018 to 27-05-2018 = 5043+4685+4431+3903=18062 (Potential unlocked 18062/35888*100 = 50.32% +7% =57.32)

For June Month (partially includes May)
28-05-2018 to  24-06-2018 = 4248+4473+3953+4574=17248 (Potential unlocked 17248/35888*100 = 48.06% +7% =55.06)

For July Month.(include one week from June)
25-06-2018 to 22-07-2018 = 4684+4367+4109+4277=17437(Potential unlocked 17437/38998*100 = 44.71% +7% =51.71)

For August Month.(include one week from July)
23-07-2018 to 19-08-2018 =3809+3489+4199+3767=15264 (Potential unlocked 17437/38998*100 = 39.14% +7% =46.14)

For September Month.(include one week from August)
20-08-2018 to  16-09-2018 =3763+3136+3536+3586=14021 (Potential unlocked 14021/38998*100 = 35.95% +7% =42.95)

The percentage marked in red color simply means, that Merit generated overall are less than the quota of the Source merits. (Or not all sources used their source merits completely)

Before we all, start accusing Merit Sources for not using the source merit completely, I like you to look the below statements from them:

It's no good looking on the beginner's or discussion boards. They are all about bounty and air drops and social networking stuff. I'd like to award members that are interested in Bitcoin and reputable crypto currencies, but I've almost given up trying to find them.

I have the same problem.  I need to get rid of sMerit.

I'm far down on this list, but I definitely support newbies IF they make good posts.  I've been hunting outside of Meta lately, looking for good ones by lower-ranked members (not just Newbies) and they are hard to find--and then there's the issue of having to check for plagiarism before giving someone merit.  I got burned once on this and almost got burned a couple of times, and it's annoying to say the least.

Incompetent and lazy people always blame others for their poverty and lack of success. This forum has more members trying to help people than any other forum I can think of. Note the use of the word "trying", it's water, horses and drinking again, I've stopped trying to help thirsty asses, and spend time with the members who make their own way to the water holes.

The Merit system is working just fine! What you call "people who need them", I call spammers. They are the reason we have the Merit system, and it's designed so they won't rank up.
To me, it doesn't matter whether or not someone "needs" Merit, I give Merit if the post is worth it.

theymos suggested that I'd give merits to some newbies in the forum who make good posts, but then I don't wanna waste too much time looking at threads for hours just to find one.

The newbies that are here to learn won't care about merits, the newbies who want to rank up quick for the bounty moniez will..

I've tried to help newbies but only end up meriting senior members.

I feel that I ought to help junior or new members, but they are either on ignore, or they are hiding from me.

With  50 done so far  about 20000 posts looked more then 16750 were bounty facebook twitter etc.

and at least 2750 were low quality junk

Say less then 500 have a little something worth while.

Those who will still say that there is lack of Merit is actually overlooking that there is lack of quality in this forum.

People still applying for Merit Source position (due to their claim that there local board lacks merit source, then below is the reply from Theymos)

Only a few local sections don't have sources now.

So, my conclusion is simple, we do not need more Merit sources but some motivators that can guide the forum from shit to good. I know , it is somewhat impossible task , if bounties and Sig campaign exist.

One suggestion from my side for those who are still applying for Merit source.
Instead of quoting 10 meritable post, just quote 10 user whom you changed from shit poster to average poster.

To all , still complaining for Merits, You have to raise the standards, There is very less possibility that Merit Sources will lower the standards,They might be happy to let their sMerits unused, instead of meriting low quality. You might be lucky to trick them(or other users) for 1,2 or 10 Merits but not for 100+ Merits.

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Looking-upto-vod
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Activity: 42
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 October 01, 2018, 09:42:04 AM

Hmmmm I see you doing research on merit when we should be protecting bitcoin from getting centralized.
r1s2g3
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Activity: 658
Merit: 388

I am alive but in hibernation.

 October 01, 2018, 09:51:15 AM

Hmmmm I see you doing research on merit when we should be protecting bitcoin from getting centralized.

Actually , not exactly Merits, I am enjoying the little Analytics.

Anyways, Merit is not the only subject, for which I created threads. Feel free to see yourself.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5031553.msg45852135#msg45852135
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4963287.msg44753415#msg44753415
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4861485.msg43808862#msg43808862
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4809044.msg43381460#msg43381460
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4460377.msg39951184#msg39951184
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3362307.msg35216061#msg35216061
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2970157.msg30515162#msg30515162

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TMAN
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https://bit.ly/2PeFmvJ TMAN SERVICES BITCHES

 October 01, 2018, 09:54:57 AM

it is hard to hand out merits, I pop into newbies a few times a week, and i am lucky to see 1 post from a non established member on the 1st page of threads that is worth a merit

Jet Cash
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Karma: 69

 October 01, 2018, 09:57:56 AM

I did give you a couple of merits, but I think there is one important factor that you didn't cover, and that is the discovery of good posts. There are quite a few members who are quietly contributing to the forum, and adding good comments to threads. Unfortunately, many of them are posting on the "wrong" boards, or in the "wrong" threads, and often they are being swamped by the "wrong" posters spraying graffiti. As well as encouraging good posting, I think it would be beneficial if we could take some action to reduce the three wrongs mentioned.

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zhekinsp
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 October 01, 2018, 05:51:30 PMMerited by r1s2g3 (1)

I did give you a couple of merits, but I think there is one important factor that you didn't cover, and that is the discovery of good posts. There are quite a few members who are quietly contributing to the forum, and adding good comments to threads. Unfortunately, many of them are posting on the "wrong" boards, or in the "wrong" threads, and often they are being swamped by the "wrong" posters spraying graffiti. As well as encouraging good posting, I think it would be beneficial if we could take some action to reduce the three wrongs mentioned.
Those kind of users you were mentioned may not interested much about merit hunting,they need to concentrate on what they are good and and make some contribution to the forum in their own way but the spammers are covering those valuable posts in no matter of time by filling useless comments for that we need much reporters to have full working of merit system.

3acaga
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 October 01, 2018, 06:46:09 PM

Good topic and very instructive - thank you.
I am one of those who say that higher ranks accrue little merit.
Just let all the higher ranks take their first 50-100 posts on our forum - and try to evaluate their posts on their merits.
Let them begin to appreciate themselves, and then they will demand good posts from the newcomers on the forum.
You have more than once give a good analysis, and for this I am very grateful to you.
P.S. Look at your reflection from different sides - and you will see the truth ...
The Pharmacist
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 October 01, 2018, 07:32:01 PM

it is hard to hand out merits, I pop into newbies a few times a week, and i am lucky to see 1 post from a non established member on the 1st page of threads that is worth a merit
I am in the same boat, full of cracks, holes, and which is badly in need of a paint job.  I've been scouring sections like Economics and Speculation looking for good quality posts (not even excellent, just good), especially those made by Newbies through Full Member ranks, and it is what I would refer to as kindly as I can as an exercise in futility.

I would prefer not to slit my throat from ear to ear such that I'm no longer a merit source.  You could do with my body as you will and feel free to post pictures with a NSFW warning.  I would much prefer if there was a good way to find meritable posts by low-ranked members that doesn't require the needle-in-a-haystack dilemma without resorting to the magnet trick.

I just can't bring myself to merit newbies when they basically write insipid tripe in a language that only superficially resembles English.

If anyone knows of any posts deserving merits, feel free to send me a PM with links.  If what you link to are complete shitposts, I'll block future PMs from you.  And please realize I have fairly high standards when deciding to hand out merits.

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DdmrDdmr
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There are lies, damned lies and statistics. MTwain

 October 01, 2018, 08:15:27 PM

<...>
You have to consider though that potential generated sMerit only happens at best in ideal conditions though, that have a non-ideal counterpart.

Let’s be the devils advocate here:
Say each sMerit, out of the 19.500 max. potential distributed Merit Source sMerits, goes to 19.500 new distinct receivers. Those 19.500 users will now have 1 sMerit. Let’s say they never receive anymore sMerits. In this extreme case, the 19,5K batch will have originated 19,5K sMerits exactly, with no halvings, therefore going nowhere near the potential maximum of 39k.

The truth is somewhere in between, but it depends on two factors:
- How branched the awarded sMerits go (the more branches (the wider the tree), the further away from potential maximum).
- If the receiver sends the halvings on to another person or not.

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Don Pedro Dinero
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 October 01, 2018, 09:11:50 PM

Those who will still say that there is lack of Merit is actually overlooking that there is lack of quality in this forum.

I don’t agree with that. There is enough quality in this forum, this is not an Encyclopedia, it is a forum. The problem is that quality gets hidden under lots of shit. But there’s lots of shit in other forums as well, the higher the traffic, the more shit.

You are partially right in that there are lots of shitposters complaining about merit and don’t actually make an effort to get them, as they only care about throwing quick lines and get paid.

But there is another problem, for many good users it’s taking a long time to rank up, much more than with the old system. That’s why more merit sources are needed, that’s why theymos introduced 36 more recently.

I’ve said it ad nauseam, even the first times I was commenting on meta, back a year ago. Do you want a quality forum? It is going to be dead. Look at the Ivory Tower and you will see what will happen if this forum only cares about quality. We have to seek an equilibrium between quality and traffic, and that means that good and ok users have to be able to rank up in a reasonable amount of time even if they don’t make exceptional posts.
HorseMajor
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 October 02, 2018, 12:25:34 AM

Those who will still say that there is lack of Merit is actually overlooking that there is lack of quality in this forum.

I don’t agree with that. There is enough quality in this forum, this is not an Encyclopedia, it is a forum. The problem is that quality gets hidden under lots of shit. But there’s lots of shit in other forums as well, the higher the traffic, the more shit.

You are partially right in that there are lots of shitposters complaining about merit and don’t actually make an effort to get them, as they only care about throwing quick lines and get paid.

But there is another problem, for many good users it’s taking a long time to rank up, much more than with the old system. That’s why more merit sources are needed, that’s why theymos introduced 36 more recently.

I’ve said it ad nauseam, even the first times I was commenting on meta, back a year ago. Do you want a quality forum? It is going to be dead. Look at the Ivory Tower and you will see what will happen if this forum only cares about quality. We have to seek an equilibrium between quality and traffic, and that means that good and ok users have to be able to rank up in a reasonable amount of time even if they don’t make exceptional posts.

you have said it all, its a forum and has gotten a certain type of attention, traffic coming you don't expect to be like the early days!! must actually accept the fact that more people expect more crap and few intellect actually interested in what ever is going on here... But the forum has become a valuable one.. Satoshi has done great thing
r1s2g3
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I am alive but in hibernation.

 October 02, 2018, 06:03:33 AM

<...>

Let’s be the devils advocate here:
Say each sMerit, out of the 19.500 max. potential distributed Merit Source sMerits, goes to 19.500 new distinct receivers. Those 19.500 users will now have 1 sMerit. Let’s say they never receive anymore sMerits. In this extreme case, the 19,5K batch will have originated 19,5K sMerits exactly, with no halvings, therefore going nowhere near the potential maximum of 39k.

The truth is somewhere in between, but it depends on two factors:
- How branched the awarded sMerits go (the more branches (the wider the tree), the further away from potential maximum).
- If the receiver sends the halvings on to another person or not.

I got you, that ideal potential is difficult to reach but below calculation is not giving any encouraging results. let me show you again.

19500 smerits available for period of 30 days.
so for 28 days 19500/30*28  =18200 sMerits are available.

Merit distributions for 28 days period starting from    23-07-2018 to 19-08-2018 =3809+3489+4199+3767=15264
Even I assume your theory that only Merit source merited, still their is deficit of 18200-15264  =2936  merits

Merit distributions for 28 days period starting from 20-08-2018 to  16-09-2018 =3763+3136+3536+3586=14021
Even I assume your theory that only Merit source merited, still their is deficit of 18200-14021 =4179 merits.

It is very evident, that Source merits did not used their quota fully at least for the period of these 56 days.

If anyone knows of any posts deserving merits, feel free to send me a PM with links.  If what you link to are complete shitposts, I'll block future PMs from you.  And please realize I have fairly high standards when deciding to hand out merits.
Instead of PMs, I like you to run some open challenge like actmyname did it. Will review atleast 20 post before Meriting. If post are found shitpost, then  a neutral tag of shit posting will be awarded. 90% user who are making hue and cry for Merit,will not enter your challenge.

--snip--
I think we both have same end conclusion but a different way of saying the things. Merit source reading 20000 post and not finding the quality post is an issue. But in other hand I think average users who become members after accumulating 10+ merit is most clueless one because adding another 90 will become another story.  We all know "Not getting Merit" is not equal to "spamming" but in eyes of Merit System both become equal.

Good topic and very instructive - thank you.
You are welcome.  If you go through these stats, you will find one more eye opener.
With all the Merit abuse happened in this forum, users giving 50 merits to ANN threads ,we have only 876 users that earned 50 or 50+ merit in last 8 months.

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DdmrDdmr
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There are lies, damned lies and statistics. MTwain

 October 02, 2018, 06:46:15 AM

<...>I got you, that ideal potential is difficult to reach but below calculation is not giving any encouraging results. let me show you again.<...>
Correct. Not all Merit Sourced sMerits are awarded within the 30 days (for multiple reasons). The deficit you calculate in your response is in practice even larger, since the regular member  awarding is not accounted for, and therefore the gap you mention is larger in practice. Unfortunately, we cannot derive the exact amount, separating once set of awarded sMerit (by Merit Sources) from the other (regular members).

My point was really that the awardable sMerit potential theoretical maximum is not likely to be reached, but rather a much lower value depending on the distribution pattern.

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r1s2g3
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 October 05, 2018, 06:18:28 AM

<...>I got you, that ideal potential is difficult to reach but below calculation is not giving any encouraging results. let me show you again.<...>
Correct. Not all Merit Sourced sMerits are awarded within the 30 days (for multiple reasons). The deficit you calculate in your response is in practice even larger, since the regular member  awarding is not accounted for, and therefore the gap you mention is larger in practice. Unfortunately, we cannot derive the exact amount, separating once set of awarded sMerit (by Merit Sources) from the other (regular members).

My point was really that the awardable sMerit potential theoretical maximum is not likely to be reached, but rather a much lower value depending on the distribution pattern.

Still the question is unanswered, deficit is due to quality or not all Merit sources are not actively participating.

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JetAid
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 October 05, 2018, 06:24:20 AM

Instead of blaming Theymos and the merit sources, why don't you guys start some good discussion threads, so that we can unload some of the dried up old merits in the bottoms of our merit bags. Please note, there are topics other than merits and ranking as well, I'm starting to think the merit system was created so that we could make lots of posts about merit to gain merit rewards.

I disabled Fit to Talk registrations because of applications by non-member spammers. Click here to send me a PM if you would like to join.
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