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Author Topic: [MERIT][NSFN] We're destroying more merits than we're sending. Like, way more.  (Read 1923 times)
suchmoon
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October 02, 2018, 07:22:15 PM
Last edit: June 17, 2019, 08:32:09 PM by suchmoon
Merited by DdmrDdmr (7), Foxpup (5), paxmao (5), philipma1957 (3), Welsh (3), criptix (2), franckuestein (2), LoyceV (2), Halab (2), hotforblockchain (2), KORE - DEV (2), NeuroticFish (1), Coin-1 (1), bitmover (1), taikuri13 (1), cryptovigi (1), DireWolfM14 (1), morvillz7z (1), 1miau (1), butka (1), VB1001 (1)
 #1

NSFN stands for "not safe for newbies". If you're a newbie looking to earn your first merit this topic may elevate your blood pressure.



This thread is no longer regularly updated. Shows data as of June 15, 2019.



According to merit stats we have sent ~20 thousand merits in 30 days between mid-May and mid-June.

According to ban and nuke stats over the last 9 months on average ~79 thousand merits per month* are being "destroyed" due to permanent bans (see details below).

Some other data to put this into perspective:


tl;dr: many more high-rank accounts are being banned than new ones being "created".

It's quote obvious where this is going. We will have all merited users banned eventually and only zero-merit users will be roaming the post-apocalyptic ruins of Bitcointalk.

This is the data for ~9 months:

Code:

39319 permanent bans (including nukes):
    18809 Newbie        0.01 average merits
    12931 Brand new (nukes I'm assuming)
     1577 Jr. Member     2.1 average merits
     2712 Member        11.7 average merits
     1759 Full Member    103 average merits
      796 Sr. Member     256 average merits
      335 Hero Member    524 average merits
      293 Copper Member
      107 Legendary     1014 average merits

710220 merits destroyed:
    32610 earned merits
       18 average merits per ban
     1224 single-merit users banned


See month-to-month trends below. Each datapoint is taken around the 15th of the month, so for example May 2019 represents data from mid-April to mid-May. Click the charts for a higher resolution image.

Loading...



* modlog doesn't have timestamps but I've been scraping it since September 22, 2018 and it seems to go back for another week so I have data since September 15, which is about nine months as of this last edit. This does not account for users that may have been unbanned but I would expect that number to be negligible.

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October 02, 2018, 07:26:21 PM
Last edit: October 02, 2018, 08:06:25 PM by Piggy
Merited by philipma1957 (3), OgNasty (1)
 #2

Great part of these merit were never going to be given to legit users in the first place, but were mainly used for alts, so maybe is not as bad as it looks.
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October 02, 2018, 07:30:42 PM
Last edit: October 02, 2018, 08:44:19 PM by suchmoon
 #3

Great part of these merit where never going to be given to legit users in the first place, but were mainly used for alts, so maybe is not as bad as it looks.

Well, most of it is airdrop too but still - what a waste. I wonder how much of that 600k (edit: wrong) airdrop has already been destroyed this way. 8 months x 50k per month would be 400k, unless the last two weeks was an anomaly of some sort.

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October 02, 2018, 07:51:46 PM
Merited by philipma1957 (1)
 #4

Well, most of it is airdrop too but still

So taking your numbers, and saying that airdropped merits were 10/100/250/500/1000 for ranks Member through Legendary, the amount of airdropped merit destroyed is

Code:
(10*150)+(100*93)+(250*30)+(500*8)+(1000*1) = 23300

So, we have actually only destroyed about 1.2k earned merit. Yes, that's a lot of airdropped merit to lose, but honestly, I don't see that as a problem if the users are deserving of their ban.

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October 02, 2018, 07:55:18 PM
 #5

Is that a lot of bans recently or just a normal about?

Not only merits destroyed but accounts..

93 Full Member
30 Sr. Member
8 Hero Member
1 Legendary

Are we replenishing ranked accounts at this rate or are upstanding accounts going to become as rare as merits?
+ all the accounts that have been scammer tagged in the same period, I doubt they are keeping up..

People have been talking about adding more ranks above legendary for a long time, this is going to solve that too..
They will be the same old ranks but get increasingly rarer and with a much higher barrier to entry..
Sig campaign pay will go up for those who deserve the privilege..

Well, most of it is airdrop too but still

So taking your numbers, and saying that airdropped merits were 10/100/250/500/1000 for ranks Member through Legendary, the amount of airdropped merit destroyed is

Code:
(10*150)+(100*93)+(250*30)+(500*8)+(1000*1) = 23300

So, we have actually only destroyed about 1.2k earned merit. Yes, that's a lot of airdropped merit to lose, but honestly, I don't see that as a problem if the users are deserving of their ban.

Is this counting the "airdropped" merits like the 500 I started for being a hero, or just "airdropped" smerits that were sent to these accounts?

I think this data would be most useful if it didn't count the accounts base merits they started with..

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October 02, 2018, 07:56:05 PM
Merited by NeuroticFish (1)
 #6

Waste, but that's why it's created, to point out the quality poster and those abusing the system.
If you check for plagiarism before you give merit, probably big part of those wasted by mistake will be saved.

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October 02, 2018, 08:03:15 PM
 #7

Waste, but that's why it's created, to point out the quality poster and those abusing the system.
If you check for plagiarism before you give merit, probably big part of those wasted by mistake will be saved.

Yeah, I would advise anyone to do this if you have the time. I tend to dedicate a certain amount of time now to giving merits when I know I have time to check for plagiarism or not strictly plagiarism, but something that has been repeated to death or has been discussed recently. A common trend among newbies is to back a few pages, and just regurgitate a good reply hoping for some merit.

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October 02, 2018, 08:17:15 PM
 #8

It is a great statistics from where we can see the statistics, gift of total merit and also total destroyed merit. Still now it is good that many merit wasted for banned user. It is necessary and I think it is a note for all that earning merit is not all. To keep your account is more important than earning merit. Few people may earn merit by unfair means but there will be no benefit in the long run.

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October 02, 2018, 08:29:37 PM
 #9

So, we have actually only destroyed about 1.2k earned merit. Yes, that's a lot of airdropped merit to lose, but honestly, I don't see that as a problem if the users are deserving of their ban.

Just to clarify - despite the sensationalist headline I don't think that's a problem at all. I just would have expected this to have happened a long time ago (i.e. ban-deserving airdropped merits getting banned out) but apparently this is still a thing 8 months in. And after all this whining about how hard it is to earn merits you'd think they would be trying harder to hold on to high-ranked accounts.

Well, most of it is airdrop too but still

So taking your numbers, and saying that airdropped merits were 10/100/250/500/1000 for ranks Member through Legendary, the amount of airdropped merit destroyed is

Code:
(10*150)+(100*93)+(250*30)+(500*8)+(1000*1) = 23300

So, we have actually only destroyed about 1.2k earned merit. Yes, that's a lot of airdropped merit to lose, but honestly, I don't see that as a problem if the users are deserving of their ban.

Is this counting the "airdropped" merits like the 500 I started for being a hero, or just "airdropped" smerits that were sent to these accounts?

I think this data would be most useful if it didn't count the accounts base merits they started with..

The 23300 is airdropped merits (not sMerits) like your 500. The other 1.2k is earned merits since the introduction of the merit system. There is no easy way to find out how many sMerits everyone had at the time of their ban, if that's what you're after.

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October 02, 2018, 08:38:09 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4)
 #10

Well, most of it is airdrop too but still - what a waste. I wonder how much of that 600k airdrop has already been destroyed this way.
The 600k was sMerit, not Merit. I don't know how many Merits were airdropped.

Anyway, this is good news, we get rid of bad users and hopefully have them be replaced by good users.

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October 02, 2018, 08:43:13 PM
Last edit: October 02, 2018, 09:33:37 PM by suchmoon
 #11

Well, most of it is airdrop too but still - what a waste. I wonder how much of that 600k airdrop has already been destroyed this way.
The 600k was sMerit, not Merit. I don't know how many Merits were airdropped.

Anyway, this is good news, we get rid of bad users and hopefully have them be replaced by good users.

You're right, and I should have known that because...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats=topsend

In less than a day we already sent more sMerits (11k+) than sources will gain in a month (~8k). Anyone knows how many sMerits have been distributed to existing members?

About 600k.

So the number of merits would have been ~3-4 million - the ratio of sMerits/merits was 1/5 or less depending on rank and activity IIRC.

Vod probably knows the exact number.

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October 02, 2018, 09:07:38 PM
 #12

Most of them woupdnbe have been banned for engaging in unethical behaviour, in an attempt to rank up.
I've always wondered, could we have a scenario where only merit sources have smerits to give out?
If other users exhaust theirs, and it is prone to diminish, as each merit creates half it's value in smerits.
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October 02, 2018, 09:17:54 PM
 #13

16,224 sMerit is held by autobanned users (including the initial sMerit).


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October 02, 2018, 09:24:02 PM
 #14

Maybe see the other side !
With this all , we have found a lot of abuser and spam shitposter and plagiarism copy/paste Users !
For that is what good and the banned one accounts burn too ! 

Short Forum cleaning !   Cheesy

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October 02, 2018, 10:56:56 PM
 #15

They went down swinging.
I think that can be compensated for by creating more smerits for merit sources. Or increasing the number.

And if possible their smerits can be decayed. They might need the merits to feel good. And fair enough, they earned them, at least, some of them did.

I dont really understand the second part of what you were saying.

theymos did just ad a bunch of merit sources something like 30, with a lower amount of smerit to distribute iirc.


Honestly I dont see this as a worrying trend. It mostly points to the fact that a lot of people giant take the merit system (or the forum rules) seriously.

The sad part is that most people who see the value in the merit system already try to distribute them ad intended. The ones who are trading/selling/ farming will just continue to ad to the inferno.

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October 02, 2018, 11:43:54 PM
 #16

16,224 sMerit is held by autobanned users (including the initial sMerit).



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October 03, 2018, 08:09:03 AM
 #17

16,224 sMerit is held by autobanned users (including the initial sMerit).

I believe those account are ban they are also merit abuser. Especially newbie and Jr. Members. Because a quality poster shouldn't ban.  Those are baned obviously they are connected with corruption somehow. So it's not bad corrupted and abuser got ban. Never mind few merit are decay, they didn't used their smerit on good post. Here is merit source to recover it. I think smerit limit should increase for merit source.

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October 03, 2018, 09:05:58 AM
 #18

I noticed that many meirt abusers are deleting some of their suspicious posts.
If Merit is deleted along with the deletion of the post, I believe this will be a very interesting thing.
Some merit abusers will delete posts in order to eliminate the evidence, but they have to lose the merit, which will be a very difficult choice for them.

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October 03, 2018, 09:39:28 AM
 #19

NSFN stands for "not safe for newbies". If you're a newbie looking to earn your first merit this topic may elevate your blood pressure.

According to merit stats we have sent ~22 thousand merits in the last 30 days.

According to ban and nuke stats ~24.5 thousand merits have been "destroyed" due to permanent bans in the last ~2 weeks*:



Ironically half of the bans probably came from being exposed due to them meriting their own alts. We should rename merits as 'alt' or "friend" tokens.

I love how this guy excitedly boasted in Meta about getting merits, then as soon as I brought up the likelihood of him meriting his alts he quickly moved it to Off Topic and locked it  Grin. I think that tells you all you need to know.

Waste, but that's why it's created, to point out the quality poster and those abusing the system.
If you check for plagiarism before you give merit, probably big part of those wasted by mistake will be saved.

Yeah, I would advise anyone to do this if you have the time. I tend to dedicate a certain amount of time now to giving merits when I know I have time to check for plagiarism or not strictly plagiarism, but something that has been repeated to death or has been discussed recently. A common trend among newbies is to back a few pages, and just regurgitate a good reply hoping for some merit.

I think this is why we should up the requirement to ten before they can have a signature because then giving out one bad merit here and there won't be such an issue. It's such a hassle having to google people's posts just to see if they're plagiarised, and if they're text-spun then you likely won't get a hit either. When one merit is all you need it's like Christmas come early for a spammer and you can get one all too easily and in numerous nefarious ways. Let's see them try to get ten on their dozens of alt accounts. It would make abuse much less likely to happen and also make it much easier to spot. One solitary merit will fly under the radar a lot of the time.

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October 03, 2018, 09:42:09 AM
 #20

I think this is why we should up the requirement to ten before they can have a signature

Just restrict signatures to members and above.

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