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Author Topic: Capitalism vs. Socialism - Make your argument here.  (Read 21247 times)
TECSHARE
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March 15, 2020, 08:15:10 PM
 #301

So its clear that capitalism is better for a small minority, the top percentiles of the population. Its also clear that the group expands during times of economic prosperity.

What should be clear is that capitalist systems are ill-prepared for disaster and that socialism thrives at making things good for the people and times that would otherwise be worse off.  Public health is collectivized.  We are all connected.  If one of us gets sick, we all might get sick.  The natural world cannot be changed to fit into this artificial capitalist system.

Vietnam and Cuba are handling this crisis brilliantly while the US absolutely fails to scramble its mangled social systems.  Everyone knows the markets can't fix coronavirus.

China: Hoospitals built in days, hundreds of thousands tested

Vietnam: no deaths, rapid testing, free meal delivery for quarantined

Cuba: Antiviral developed days after first case

US/UK: Rich bolt off to doomsday bunkers

The limitless depths of your ignorance never ceases to amaze and disturb me. Is it clear? Is it? Italy has a mostly publicly funded healthcare system. They are doing great right?

I thought China wasn't Communist, you have said this many times. FYI, those aren't "hoospitals", they are prisons for people to die in quarantine. They are welding people into their apartment blocks leaving them to starve.

You really believe Cuba developed an effective antiviral drug against Covid-19 in days? Do you really even believe any of the diarrhea dribbling out of your mouth or do you think the ends justify the means so it is ok to lie? The fact that you think this is a great opportunity to push your political goals tells me exactly the kind of human detritus you really are.

You are probably one of those people on twitter telling sick people to go to Trump rallies as if those people getting sick won't then in turn infect your friends and family. The good news is you will get your chance to LAARP revolutionary soon. When you are remembering how great you had it when you are struggling to stay alive, remember me Captain Postmodern.

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March 15, 2020, 09:19:46 PM
 #302

I never said China was communist.  They have been delivering food to people under quarantine so I'm not sure where you're getting the starve thing from. 

BTW, quite curious that you aren't complaining about the recent quantitative easing since you are so against money printing.   The fed is back at it again and you are silent.   
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March 15, 2020, 11:02:41 PM
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I never said China was communist.  They have been delivering food to people under quarantine so I'm not sure where you're getting the starve thing from. 

BTW, quite curious that you aren't complaining about the recent quantitative easing since you are so against money printing. The fed is back at it again and you are silent.   

What the fuck does me complaining about it change? There is literally no way out of this other than total economic collapse at this point. Great whataboutism as usual.


Here are some videos of how wonderfully China is handling this.


"(中文字幕) Leaked Videos From China Reveal What's Really Happening in Hospitals"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcE4JZg2GqM


"Residents Arrested for Bypassing Community Manager to Buy Affordable Vegetables"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q2BtRVwoT0


"Wuhan People Cry For Help | NTDTV"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwoyTjn5n5I


"Coronavirus: China’s Authoritarian Control Gets Worse"

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ArvYq89w-cI


"Chinese Police Weld a Door Shut to Lock Residents Inside During Coronavirus Quarantine"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsoVuKy2_PA
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March 16, 2020, 03:05:59 AM
 #304

I don't speak for all communists and there are a bunch of ways to answer that question but personally, I don't believe in seizing assets unless thats how you refer to taxes.  

I simply believe there is enough new wealth being created to make sure it gets distributed fairly amongst workers.   The economy grows each year but most of that growth is enjoyed by the 1% while wages stay stagnant.  If we simply saw that new wealth distributed evenly amongst workers, we wouldn't need to seize anything.  

Combine that with the fact that the US government creates new money all the time and most of that money goes to corporations and finds its way into the pockets of the uber rich.  I'd simply suggest that wealth goes to everyone.  There are a lot of democratic methods for achieving this like Universal basic income, education, healthcare, jobs, or housing.  None of those involve seizing assets from anyone.  

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Evaluating the impact of QE1, which began in 2008, is nearly impossible.  At the time the Fed began rapidly expanding its balance sheet, a number of other events and policy changes were taking place. They included the banking bailout, the auto bailout, advent of zero interest rates, the stimulus package and an accounting change that allowed banks to hold assets on their books to maturity at cost rather than marking them to market. Had all of these taken place in the absence of QE1, how would the economy have performed?  Would it have recovered as it did?  At the time, it was anybody’s guess.

As you see, we print money to help the "economy" all the time.  I say we start printing money to help everyday people.

That sounds very cute in theory, but here is the issue: How exactly do you intend for the filthy rich to share? Will you appeal to the goodwill of their heart or...

You do it by force (coercion)?

In the end, this is the very central point about socialism, it is to employ force (State, Workers, Party, whatever). And after you do this, a whole new can of worms unleash. You are still to experience it but i have.

Once the property, capital, assets get "fairly re-distributed" (says who, a new bureaucrat who is suddenly very powerful?) Wealth creation stops, completely. If you make wealth, it will be taken from you, so why bother? However, there is now a bureaucrat who decides who eats twice and who eats thrice... Entrepreneurial mindset gives way to a mindset focused in "somehow" influence those bureaucrats in your favor. (Funny, this sounds a lot like the aristocrats in a Monarchy, hmmm i wonder why the dear leader can't never be peacefully replaced by anyone not chosen by themselves).

Welcome to the "Real Socialism" corruption machine. Incidentally, those factories put in the hands of the workers also don't have much incentive to be efficient or productive (their wealth will be "fairly re-distributed, remember?) or efficient (The State has to be "fair" to the workers) AND the central power usually assigns them a new "boss" anyway, one that you absolutely cannot criticize, or else you become counter-revolutionary. And don't even think about going on strike...

Some anarchist branch proposes a style of communism that seems to be less State centered, especially the ones that doesn't object to capitalism (Anarcho-capitalism). Communism ironically calls for the abolition of the State, but, Socialism wants an almighty State first, AND Marxists say you need socialism before communism, and therefore communism never comes, despite branding everything they do as communist (or socialist, depending).

Now i see two key points:

One, people should do things by their own choice, not coerced or forced in anyway. Else human nature kicks in, regardless of oppression or police state.
Two, the less State the better, preferably none. If you are with the type that call this the "real" communism, i tend to be more in favor.

Whatever communism really is (self governed communities? the French commune?) things can become much worse than you think your current situation is, just by making the wrong choice in the name of an ideal that the stubborn reality never makes possible. (Perhaps the ideal was wrong in the first place).

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March 17, 2020, 12:32:39 PM
 #305

They are both the same capitalism and socialism - it just depends on if your an arsehole or not. (not directed at anyone)

There are plenty of rich socialists and capitalists and plenty of poor socialists and capitalists.

Plenty of giving socialists and plenty of giving capitalists.

Plenty of selfish socialists and plenty of selfish capitalists.

I can see only one difference (in general) and its the wannabe's - wannabe capitalists struggle to be socialists or even want to even entertain the fact, because they cant be fully capitalist because they are failing at it terrible and cant believe they need help.

I accept as true with you that a socialist can never be capitalist. they're usually high-ranking people in society. The lower values of society have an impact on people. They both exploit and oppress the poor people of society in various ways for the sake of their own interests Currently its effects can't be noticed.

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