To the SEC bitcoin ETFs can be a bad idea..

[popcorn1]

Bitcoin ETFs can be a bad idea because of the bitcoin whales ..I will prove my case..

If i own a million btc plus millions in cash  what i do is buy loads of bitcoin raising the price  meaning i sell my bitcoin SOME of them not all to make a profit from the bitcoin then
sell my bitcoin  and bet on a low turn on another ETF site    see how easy they can fix the markets with loads of bitcoin and cash..

I can do it the other way around if i so wish  example..

I sell loads of bitcoin and bet on another market for bitcoin to go down    i make the profits from the sale of my bitcoin plus the monies off betting it went down  then i buy back all the bitcoin and bet it to go up and win again and again and again..

I told you all in this crypto space the only fair way is a fair distribution to the many for a fair way of practice..

If you do the math if someone as way more than you and no one else can ever get to be as rich as you then you hold the world to ransom ..

Yes and i can understand why some with many many bitcoins love this because you lot can be the daddies and what bad daddies you would all be..

Why you say?..Well just think if no one in your country paid tax then how will your country build a motorway for your businesses to thrive ?..

Imagine no one paid tax what will happen?  remember no one paid tax..

You can have toll roads to pay for these roads?   so how free is everyone then ?  well only the rich who can afford to pay  ..

So now i wonder how free will you all be with no one paying any taxes at all?..Just one to think about..

Oh the point was because most who are into bitcoin hate paying taxes   then what happens if no one pays any taxes  what will happen to your country?..

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[Xiaolongnu]

bitcoin etf is a fucking stupid idea and SEC will not approve it. SEC is not stupid to accept an asset like bitcoin that could (already happened) increase and decrease thousands dollar in only one day. bitcoin price is controlled and manipulated by whales, institutions, and as long as this still happens, SEC will not approve bitcoin etf.

[Idrisu]

Bitcoin ETFs can be a bad idea because of the bitcoin whales ..I will prove my case..

If i own a million btc plus millions in cash  what i do is buy loads of bitcoin raising the price  meaning i sell my bitcoin SOME of them not all to make a profit from the bitcoin then
sell my bitcoin  and bet on a low turn on another ETF site    see how easy they can fix the markets with loads of bitcoin and cash..

I can do it the other way around if i so wish  example..

I sell loads of bitcoin and bet on another market for bitcoin to go down    i make the profits from the sale of my bitcoin plus the monies off betting it went down  then i buy back all the bitcoin and bet it to go up and win again and again and again..

I told you all in this crypto space the only fair way is a fair distribution to the many for a fair way of practice..

If you do the math if someone as way more than you and no one else can ever get to be as rich as you then you hold the world to ransom ..

Yes and i can understand why some with many many bitcoins love this because you lot can be the daddies and what bad daddies you would all be..

Why you say?..Well just think if no one in your country paid tax then how will your country build a motorway for your businesses to thrive ?..

Imagine no one paid tax what will happen?  remember no one paid tax..

You can have toll roads to pay for these roads?   so how free is everyone then ?  well only the rich who can afford to pay  ..

So now i wonder how free will you all be with no one paying any taxes at all?..Just one to think about..

Oh the point was because most who are into bitcoin hate paying taxes   then what happens if no one pays any taxes  what will happen to your country?..

You have a very good case and reality the whales are going to manipulate the market out of sec control. However, we really need the ETF to bring bitcoin into lime line as investors has reacted to this ETF issues several times and that has affected the market in the most negative ways.

[cryptocrusher]

This is in no way different to futures, whales can use the exact same system with futures and it's even easier to execute. Only with time will it balance out as other start to realise what the whales are doing and look to counteract it and profit themselves. This is why in all scenarios physical transactions are best, physically backed futures would've been the best option as manipulation is so much more complex.

[Juggy777]

Bitcoin ETFs can be a bad idea because of the bitcoin whales ..I will prove my case..

If i own a million btc plus millions in cash  what i do is buy loads of bitcoin raising the price  meaning i sell my bitcoin SOME of them not all to make a profit from the bitcoin then
sell my bitcoin  and bet on a low turn on another ETF site    see how easy they can fix the markets with loads of bitcoin and cash..

While you have made a strong case the ground reality is quite different, whales do disrupt market like we're told, and forced to believe but not they way it's projected. There're about 32 whales to be approx and rumours is one of them is in jail, and when a proper research was done it was found whales distruption the market is more related to aniexty and myths, hence your argument just lost authenticity. I feel Bitcoins etf is a good idea, as it'll lead to more adoption and higher sentiments something that this market badly needs.

Read this link : http://fortune.com/2018/10/10/can-the-whales-of-bitcoin-tank-the-market/

[1Referee]

What you are talking about is already happening. In some cases it's very obvious how large players bet for or against the market on platforms as Bitmex and Bitfinex, where they use the main spot exchanges to steer the price in a certain direction, and there you have your profits. Both Bitmex and Bitfinex aren't regulated, so you can imagine how happy whales are with the freedom they enjoy at these platforms.

If we're talking about regulated Bitcoin backed products, I am not at all worried about price manipulation, but more so that institutions can now obtain a significant number of Bitcoins. The more of Bitcoin they own, the more they could be tempted to mess with the development of Bitcoin. It might seem far fetched to some people, but the possibility is definitely there so we better not underestimate the potential consequences of this.

[coinplus]

ETF is a safe space for people who do not either understand how to actually buy bitcoin or really care to learn how to buy bitcoin.
It is not for people like you and me who are here that writes. ETF's usually do not have that type of volume to actually have the chance to double your profits.

By your logic if you can manage to buy bitcoins and increase the price than sell your bitcoins and use that money to short ETF and say it will go down than everyone would do that, however if you say bitcoin will go down you will have to find a counter-party that would get that contract, which in ETF world is not THAT big, its small. People can still manipulate it but do not forget SEC will be checking it with ETF making it official for them.

Hence, the whales manipulating the market is already here and doing it, they don't need SEC approved version of it with risks.

[wuvdoll]

bitcoin etf is a fucking stupid idea and SEC will not approve it. SEC is not stupid to accept an asset like bitcoin that could (already happened) increase and decrease thousands dollar in only one day. bitcoin price is controlled and manipulated by whales, institutions, and as long as this still happens, SEC will not approve bitcoin etf.

So apparently, what you are saying now is that before we can even get to see any bitcoin ETF approval by the SEC, we will have to hit the level of real life usage in which there would have been a possibility of some stability and not some huge movement up and down within a short period of time, as this is the only way we can possibly get to see that happen, right ?

I do not even care about ETF anyway as the market has grown and developed over the years without it, and I just feel for some reasons people just keep paying so much attention to the idea of ETF than necessary. What I am so particular about is to actually see the space leave the speculative zone to a more used zone in the real life as that is the best thing for good growth and development right now and not some ETF.

[Pursuer]

If i own a million btc plus millions in cash  what i do is buy loads of bitcoin raising the price  meaning i sell my bitcoin SOME of them not all to make a profit from the bitcoin then ....

in my opinion your logic is extremely flawed because of a very simple reason:
there is nothing stopping you from moving your 1+1 (2) million dollar into any other market that already has ETFs and do the same thing there. and there are a lot of other markets with ETFs and they can be easily affected by that kind of money.

fair way is a fair distribution

by the way the distribution of bitcoin is fair. in fact it doesn't get any fairer than that! and you can't say it is not fair just because someone owns more than you do! that is how the world works. some people are richer also some people are wiser to act faster (buy bitcoin when it was cheaper) and some others are poorer and less wise (like not buying when it is cheap instead buying when it is at the peak of a bubble). that  doesn't make bitcoin distribution unfair!

[prtty2gal2]

You have a very good case and reality the whales are going to manipulate the market out of sec control. However, we really need the ETF to bring bitcoin into lime line as investors has reacted to this ETF issues several times and that has affected the market in the most negative ways.

The whales have always been manipulating the market right from the onset and just like someone said, this is the main reason why most of us are clamoring on real life usage, which would bring about sustainable demand and in that case, it would be hard for just some group of people tending to just play with the market to their favor in most cases. I really do not even pay so much attention to bitcoin ETF anyway as I just see it as some distraction as far as I am concerned.

All I want to see is getting to see more people coming into the space, not because they just want to get rich but because they understand the value the space creates. I have heard of situations where whales got burned before trying to manipulate the market, and may be in that case, we will get to see more of that happening.

[cryptocrusher]

What you are talking about is already happening. In some cases it's very obvious how large players bet for or against the market on platforms as Bitmex and Bitfinex, where they use the main spot exchanges to steer the price in a certain direction, and there you have your profits. Both Bitmex and Bitfinex aren't regulated, so you can imagine how happy whales are with the freedom they enjoy at these platforms.

If we're talking about regulated Bitcoin backed products, I am not at all worried about price manipulation, but more so that institutions can now obtain a significant number of Bitcoins. The more of Bitcoin they own, the more they could be tempted to mess with the development of Bitcoin. It might seem far fetched to some people, but the possibility is definitely there so we better not underestimate the potential consequences of this.

ETF is a safe space for people who do not either understand how to actually buy bitcoin or really care to learn how to buy bitcoin.
It is not for people like you and me who are here that writes. ETF's usually do not have that type of volume to actually have the chance to double your profits.

By your logic if you can manage to buy bitcoins and increase the price than sell your bitcoins and use that money to short ETF and say it will go down than everyone would do that, however if you say bitcoin will go down you will have to find a counter-party that would get that contract, which in ETF world is not THAT big, its small. People can still manipulate it but do not forget SEC will be checking it with ETF making it official for them.

Hence, the whales manipulating the market is already here and doing it, they don't need SEC approved version of it with risks.

Exactly and Exactly, manipulation is already here, any ETF will only make that a little more difficult because it's regulated by the SEC and they won't let things slide unlike trading on many of the unregulated exchanges.

As for institutions getting their hands on more bitcoin I assume you mean the actual people offering the ETF as they would be buying bitcoin to back the ETF?

[Harlot]

I don't find something new about whales manipulating the market. What you are saying is already happening and with the SEC passing the ETF it will only push some more whales in the market here. Also even if we the traders are not mostly whales it does not mean that we are not benefiting from what they are doing we can also profit or take advantage of the price action of what they are doing. It is really not a bad idea but the volatility and price jumps it will make is a traders dream scenario to take a lot of profits in the market.

[BitHodler]

Institutions are probably just as afraid of you fellow Bitcoiners with how easily people tend to mood-switch based on the most recent price activity. It's really a gamble for them instead of a well thought out investment.

Overall, there is no reason to be afraid of manipulation. As mentioned by members above, it's already happening and it very likely has been happening since the very beginning of Bitcoin being tradable on exchanges.

People want institutions to pump this market way past the moon, but aren't looking forward to have them be involved in this market. It's contracting in every possible way. Just let it happen, there isn't much you can do against it anyway.

[pixie85]

Bitcoin ETFs can be a bad idea because of the bitcoin whales ..I will prove my case..

If i own a million btc plus millions in cash  what i do is buy loads of bitcoin raising the price  meaning i sell my bitcoin SOME of them not all to make a profit from the bitcoin then
sell my bitcoin  and bet on a low turn on another ETF site    see how easy they can fix the markets with loads of bitcoin and cash..

I can do it the other way around if i so wish  example..

I sell loads of bitcoin and bet on another market for bitcoin to go down    i make the profits from the sale of my bitcoin plus the monies off betting it went down  then i buy back all the bitcoin and bet it to go up and win again and again and again..

What is stopping people from doing the same thing with stocks? Stocks are allowed by the SEC and you have different options like gold. What is stopping someone who has a lot of gold from selling it on the market and betting on the lower price?
Do you want us to believe that whales exist only in the crypto space and that cryptocurrencies are the only asset easy to manipulate? Everything is if you have enough money!

[YuginKadoya]

I see your idea and everyone's idea in the comment section, It is already happening and in the approval of ETF we can really say that it will still happen, Well maybe that's the case why ETF doesn't get approved they think that the market of bitcoin is a manipulative thing that many whales could cling to make tons of money,

And well that's the idea of it a rinse and repeat process, Whales will keep on doing it even if SEC approval with ETF version a highly unlikely process and picturing out the situation that is how it works and in the perspective of all whales they only think about bitcoin as a means to get profit in an easy way, But for us that don't have any resources to do it, the only thing left for us is to work our way to get profit.

[acheampong64]

Yeah I think you're right. The old men are worried about the many amount of Bitcoins in the hands of the few. They fear that'll go against them should they approve the ETF. That's one main reason that's causing the delay. They won't to find a way to make sure few people won't control the price and so they'll keep on delaying it.