[2018-11-06] Electric Bike Runs on Lightning Network

[Kakmakr]

https://www.ccn.com/this-electric-bike-runs-on-lightning-network-bitcoin-micropayments/

I would really want to see if VISA / MasterCard or PayPal can offer micro payment capabilities at the same fees, because I doubt if they can even come close to the Lightning Network. 

Well Done, Matthias Steinig. You have found the perfect application for Lightning Network micro payments.  I hope this is the kickstart for many other innovative micro payment solutions. 

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[buwaytress]

Haha ok that's pretty neat, I'll give you that. Used those bikes before because they needed deposits for any fines or damage that might incur, so only credit cards could be used. I suppose LN capabilities could be used to lock a certain amount in channel before releasing at end of deposit term... So that is another use for LN.

[1Referee]

All sorts of LN adoption is more than welcome. I personally am more interested in what we can do with LN online.

I am not interested in paid subscription plans, but do like some content that's being offered, which is where LN will offer its utility to allow people to instantly pay for the content they want to consume, not what they are forced to consume by paying for a monthly subscription plan. This business model will attract way more clientele because most of these subscriptions scare people off.

By allowing people to pay just for the content they want to consume, it might also reduce the popularity of illegal download/streaming sites.

[LeGaulois]

He posted a video some weeks ago while using the bike   https://twitter.com/leblitzdick/status/1050845952788099072. Funny, but still a good example of how Bitcoin can be used for smaller transactions (that Visa/Mastercard can't process without a loss from the merchant)
If cities are reluctant to use LN, someone can create a company that will do it for them by offering to handle everything around the LN.

[Thekool1s]

Kudos to him This should kick things off. LN opens a whole world of possibilities with bitcoin. The next thing I would love to see is parking spaces using LN...

If cities are reluctant to use LN, someone can create a company that will do it for them by offering to handle everything around the LN.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I mean this is a huge opportunity if you ask me.

By allowing people to pay just for the content they want to consume, it might also reduce the popularity of illegal download/streaming sites.

Are you talking about Netflix? I mean they are really cheap. I dunno why someone would pay per episode instead of having a subscription. I mean 9 bucks are less than the transaction fees which bitcoin had during the Bullrun. But I would love to see Netflix accept cryptos.

[Anarchist]

By allowing people to pay just for the content they want to consume, it might also reduce the popularity of illegal download/streaming sites.

I don't think so. When V.O.D has become a standard for all households, this hasn't reduced illegal downloads. And if VOD participated,
it's at a very low level. No way I'm going to pay 4$ to see a movie from the last century.

[xFiber]

I would really want to see if VISA / MasterCard or PayPal can offer micro payment capabilities at the same fees, because I doubt if they can even come close to the Lightning Network. 

They won't come near something like this and you need to keep in mind that we're just getting started.

Well Done, Matthias Steinig. You have found the perfect application for Lightning Network micro payments.

He really has done a good job but it's not really the perfect application for micro payments (if there actually is such a perfect application in the first place?). I don't think that this idea in particular will gain much traction utility wise but it certainly opens the gate for others to come in and build on his application or take elements of his concept and apply it in other use cases. That's one of the main reason I like open source so much. But nevertheless this is a great illustration of how versatile the Lightning Network actually is.

[squatter]

Are you talking about Netflix? I mean they are really cheap. I dunno why someone would pay per episode instead of having a subscription. I mean 9 bucks are less than the transaction fees which bitcoin had during the Bullrun. But I would love to see Netflix accept cryptos.

Pay-per-view at a fraction of the cost sounds great to me, especially since TV/movie licensing means you have to use different services to watch different titles. I rarely watch TV. Maybe a few times a month when someone suggests a random movie or documentary (which often isn't on Netflix anyway). I do have a Netflix subscription, but it's a waste since I hardly ever use it. I only pay the subscription so it's there when I need it.

I definitely see a use case for ad-free video and music streaming.

[Kakmakr]

Are you talking about Netflix? I mean they are really cheap. I dunno why someone would pay per episode instead of having a subscription. I mean 9 bucks are less than the transaction fees which bitcoin had during the Bullrun. But I would love to see Netflix accept cryptos.

Pay-per-view at a fraction of the cost sounds great to me, especially since TV/movie licensing means you have to use different services to watch different titles. I rarely watch TV. Maybe a few times a month when someone suggests a random movie or documentary (which often isn't on Netflix anyway). I do have a Netflix subscription, but it's a waste since I hardly ever use it. I only pay the subscription so it's there when I need it.

I definitely see a use case for ad-free video and music streaming.

Micro transactions can even be used for streamed content providers. A hypothetical scenario would be to pay per second of viewing for instance. How many times have you rented a video online and started watching it and then decided that it was crap and then stopped watching it. <You had to pay the full amount for the content, but you just watched like 30% of it.  >

The pay-per-use concept is exactly what micro payments was meant for and this is ideal for the Lightning Network. 

[1Referee]

Are you talking about Netflix? I mean they are really cheap. I dunno why someone would pay per episode instead of having a subscription.

Netflix is just one of the many. Every streaming service has its own selection of series/movies/documentaries that it offers, which would require people to have numerous paid (monthly) subscriptions just to watch what they are interested in. This also applies to porn sites where people mostly look for specific scenes and photo sets of their favorite models.

I mean 9 bucks are less than the transaction fees which bitcoin had during the Bullrun. But I would love to see Netflix accept cryptos.

Most people here don't complain about fees because they generate most of what they have through campaigns, tasks, etc. People putting fiat on the table felt the pain of the high on-chain fees last year, so it really matters. Another thing is that it just doesn't make sense to pay $9 for something that also requires a $9 (or higher) on-chain fee, which is why LN is so important.

[xFiber]

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Micro transactions can even be used for streamed content providers. A hypothetical scenario would be to pay per second of viewing for instance. How many times have you rented a video online and started watching it and then decided that it was crap and then stopped watching it. <You had to pay the full amount for the content, but you just watched like 30% of it.  >

The pay-per-use concept is exactly what micro payments was meant for and this is ideal for the Lightning Network. 

That's a very interesting use case you're proposing right there, something that I didn't think of from the top of my head. The same concept can be applied for music streaming services like Spotify.  Would be awesome to see companies like Netlfix and Spotify offer 'flex'-plans to their users based on micro payments in the near future. Not only will consumers get more value for money but I feel like it will attract a new audience to these services. Either way it's a win-win for both parties.

[Thekool1s]

The pay-per-use concept is exactly what micro payments was meant for and this is ideal for the Lightning Network.

I mean there are use cases for LN for sure but we also have to look at how convenient they are. Imagine watching a movie and your balance runs out. You will have to load up your cold wallet and make a transaction to your hot wallet and then continue watching the movie. This could ruin many moments.

The same concept can be applied for music streaming services like Spotify.

I don't see how this will be useful. You can hear to the full version of the song on youtube before making the decision of buying it.

Most people here don't complain about fees because they generate most of what they have through campaigns, tasks, etc. People putting fiat on the table felt the pain of the high on-chain fees last year, so it really matters. Another thing is that it just doesn't make sense to pay $9 for something that also requires a $9 (or higher) on-chain fee, which is why LN is so important.

No one is denying the advantages LN brings to the table. My statement was for the support of the LN.

Netflix is just one of the many. Every streaming service has its own selection of series/movies/documentaries that it offers, which would require people to have numerous paid (monthly) subscriptions just to watch what they are interested in. This also applies to porn sites where people mostly look for specific scenes and photo sets of their favorite models.

I mean these subscriptions don't cost more than a meal at a good restaurant hence why a subscription model makes sense. we can't push things everywhere. I mean the LN can bring plenty of new concepts of payments to the table but are they really necessary and benefit the average joe?

[BitHodler]

I mean the LN can bring plenty of new concepts of payments to the table but are they really necessary and benefit the average joe?

I like how you remain neutral here. I'm sure that by the time LN is mature enough to handle these uses, we'll see a whole lot more coins being added for much wider exposure because there is more than just Bitcoin.

We have more than clear evidence that the services opening themselves up to a large number of crypto currencies are doing way better than their competitors just sticking with Bitcoin and Ethereum for example.

We might even see tokenized fiat currencies being easily divisible and transferable be used for micro payments. Bitcoin's progress motivates the rest to follow and you can be sure that they will follow.

Average joes don't care about decentralized currencies, they just want to use money in the most convenient possible way.

[xFiber]

The same concept can be applied for music streaming services like Spotify.

I don't see how this will be useful. You can hear to the full version of the song on youtube before making the decision of buying it.

Based off of this statement you're giving me the impression that you are questioning paid music streaming in general and not the potential integration of micro payments backed by the LN (?). As of June 2018 Spotify reportedly has 83 million paid subscriptions (https://www.statista.com/statistics/244995/number-of-paying-spotify-subscribers/) and this number only seems to be increasing. You also have to take in consideration that not all songs are available on YouTube (or not in the same audio quality).

The way is Spotify works is the following: upon paying a monthly subscription fee you are granted access to a grand library of songs and additional services. So you don't really have to purchase an individual song. A pay-per-minute model could prove to be a lot more cost effective for users who don't use the service that frequently. Instead of paying the full subscription fee every month they could only pay for the time listened per month.

I mean there are use cases for LN for sure but we also have to look at how convenient they are. Imagine watching a movie and your balance runs out. You will have to load up your cold wallet and make a transaction to your hot wallet and then continue watching the movie. This could ruin many moments.

In theory you could also use the concept I described above but that doesn't mean it will be useful for the average consumer as you pointed out. Especially the topping up off the hot wallet could prove to be a bottleneck point.

[Thekool1s]

Based off of this statement you're giving me the impression that you are questioning paid music streaming in general and not the potential integration of micro payments backed by the LN (?).

No, I am not.

As of June 2018 Spotify reportedly has 83 million paid subscriptions (https://www.statista.com/statistics/244995/number-of-paying-spotify-subscribers/) and this number only seems to be increasing.

Good for them.

You also have to take in consideration that not all songs are available on YouTube (or not in the same audio quality).

I doubt that. The songs get uploaded to the official channels, so sound quality isn't the issue. Plus I haven't been in a scenario where I would have searched for a song and a youtube result didn't pop up. Plus there are services like Soundcloud.

A pay-per-minute model could prove to be a lot more cost effective for users who don't use the service that frequently. Instead of paying the full subscription fee every month they could only pay for the time listened per month.

You missed my point. $5 a month or $10 in the case of premium aren't much. People would still prefer a sort of subscription at this point range. LN could be used here to eliminate the fees which would have been incurred on the credit cards. I mean this sort of pay-per-minute model makes sense in developing countries where they live off on $2-$3 per day. But if you are targetting that sort of an audience you won't be getting anything out of it. I would love to see these subscriptions on the LN, Eliminating all sorts of fees for the buyer and the seller sounds good to me.

[xFiber]

No, I am not.

I figured. But that was not the impression you gave me by your statement.

$5 a month or $10 in the case of premium aren't much. People would still prefer a sort of subscription at this point range.

That's relative, for us westerners it's not a lot but for other people it might be. Heck if I'm paying $120 annually for a service that I only want to use a couple times per year I'd rather get myself a ppm plan and use the money saved to take my girlfriend somewhere nice for dinner. Also this ppm plan is just me brainstorming in context of micro payments on LN not me coming up with the most useful way for the general public to consume premium content based on the LN.

I mean this sort of pay-per-minute model makes sense in developing countries where they live off on $2-$3 per day. But if you are targetting that sort of an audience you won't be getting anything out of it.

What exactly is that even supposed to mean? What is it that we're supposed to get out of our audience? I don't think we're trying to get anything out of anyone with concepts like these. Isn't that the whole point of LN, making small transactions instant and cheap for everyone across the globe?

[Thekool1s]

We might even see tokenized fiat currencies being easily divisible and transferable be used for micro payments. Bitcoin's progress motivates the rest to follow and you can be sure that they will follow.

People have been moving away from the hard cash for almost a decade now, I totally see governments launching their own tokens in the near future, Imagine if we could bring back smaller denominations which aren't used today. How it will affect the pricing... A whole lot of possibilities open up when you think of it...

That's relative, for us westerners it's not a lot but for other people it might be. Heck if I'm paying $120 annually for a service that I only want to use a couple times per year I'd rather get myself a ppm plan and use the money saved to take my girlfriend somewhere nice for dinner.

Agreed, But lets but honest here for a minute. If you are using a service like let's say Netflix a couple of times per year, chances are you won't be on a yearly subscription plan. You will probably subscribe in those months in which the need arises. If you say that you don't have the time to cancel the subscription then I doubt money is the issue here. If money was an issue here, you could have easily made the time to cancel your plans.

Also this ppm plan is just me brainstorming in context of micro payments on LN not me coming up with the most useful way for the general public to consume premium content based on the LN.

I know, The reason I am arguing against this is that LN was made for a very specific purpose which wasn't to introduce new forms of payment plans but rather to solve the issue of high fees associated with On-Chain Transactions. Bitcoin is already hard to grasp for an average joe, let's not overwhelm them with things which they aren't yet ready for.

What exactly is that even supposed to mean? What is it that we're supposed to get out of our audience?

First of all, I was talking from a sellers perspective. If a dude is living off on $2-$3 per day, He will most likely not have access to high-speed internet to enjoy a service like Netflix or Spotify. Hence why plans like ppm aren't as attractive. These services are more for western audiences than eastern. That's why let's say paying for a $10 subscription with 1 penny in fees makes sense. That's a real use case of LN.

[Carlton Banks]

Micro transactions can even be used for streamed content providers. A hypothetical scenario would be to pay per second of viewing for instance. How many times have you rented a video online and started watching it and then decided that it was crap and then stopped watching it. <You had to pay the full amount for the content, but you just watched like 30% of it.  >

An even more targeted model might be to make the first 5-25 minutes free, then make people pay per minute for the rest. That reflects the way we judge these things naturally; give it a while to develop, then make a decision to stick or ditch. Could be very sneakily applied to pornography, for instance

[pixie85]

First of all, I was talking from a sellers perspective. If a dude is living off on $2-$3 per day, He will most likely not have access to high-speed internet to enjoy a service like Netflix or Spotify. Hence why plans like ppm aren't as attractive. These services are more for western audiences than eastern. That's why let's say paying for a $10 subscription with 1 penny in fees makes sense. That's a real use case of LN.

So we're getting into the first world argument. Are you really saying that paying subscription is a western thing, people who want to pay cents for a video have to be poor, living off 2$ a day and can't have Internet access that allows for those videos to be watched in the first place?
You'd have to look hard for places where people earn $2 a day. Even in underdeveloped countries $0.5 per hour is a low wage these days. 

I think that this bike is a great example of how LN can be utilized and paying cents for being able to watch a movie or a live stream can be profitable to the streamer or host. Many videos on social media have more than 1 million views. If watching would cost you 5c it would still make a hefty sum. It would also be another way of fighting online piracy. Many people would pay a few cents for being able to download a movie legally and in good quality.