Bitcoin Forum
December 08, 2016, 06:38:45 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Alternative proof-of-work if fraud weren't an issue  (Read 1240 times)
fivebells
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


View Profile
November 04, 2011, 12:50:37 AM
 #1

There's a lot of work, ingenuity and computational resources devoted to computation of the hashes which lie at the core of the bitcoin proof-of-work protection.  I do not wish to criticize that, I understand its value.  But I would be interested to hear your fantasies of what you would do with those resources if they could be turned to arbitrary computations.  Would you devote the cycles to Folding/SETI@Home, sell them to people trying to crack password hashes, try to train a machine-learning algorithm to predict stock market prices?  Go wild, I'd really like to hear people's favorite suggestions. 
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
November 04, 2011, 01:01:48 AM
 #2

I'd heat my garage.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Drama Junkie


View Profile
November 04, 2011, 01:04:31 AM
 #3

Decentralized Anonymous Cloud Computing, payed for with bitcoin, nothing else needed.

The press, and govt would go nuts if this ever happens Wink

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
fivebells
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


View Profile
November 04, 2011, 01:14:13 AM
 #4

Decentralized Anonymous Cloud Computing, payed for with bitcoin, nothing else needed.
  What if you had to choose a particular algorithm up-front, so that people could run the client without security concerns?
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Drama Junkie


View Profile
November 04, 2011, 01:22:50 AM
 #5

Decentralized Anonymous Cloud Computing, payed for with bitcoin, nothing else needed.
  What if you had to choose a particular algorithm up-front, so that people could run the client without security concerns?
Enumeration of the instruction set with a cypher, probably waste alot of computational resources for privacy and security, but if it is practically impossible to trace a application it would be worth it.

Also see this thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34916.0

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
fivebells
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


View Profile
November 04, 2011, 02:34:05 AM
 #6

How about useful calculations, or which people would pay money for?
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Drama Junkie


View Profile
November 04, 2011, 02:36:47 AM
 #7

How useful would be my suggested service?

Don't you think people would pay money to host webapps on a platform which cannot go down by design?

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
fivebells
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


View Profile
November 04, 2011, 10:51:27 AM
 #8

Oh, I didn't realize you were still talking about allowing arbitrary computation.  Yes, that would be extremely useful, but it would still be hard to establish as secure.

Pretty much every consumer computer in the world already has restricted-execution environments for running untrusted code from the internet.  They're called Java and Javascript, and they're a bountiful source of security vulnerabilities, not so much because they're sloppily implemented, but because in a hostile context it's extremely difficult to establish whether a given arbitrary computation is safe to run.  Do the restricted-execution environments cited in that earlier thread provide better security guarantees than current java and javascript implementations do?
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Drama Junkie


View Profile
November 04, 2011, 08:42:10 PM
 #9

Yes, the approach I am suggesting provides an even larger amount of security. Have you watched the video I linked in the other thread?
The plan is to take this approach described there and extend it to a decentralized cluster.

This is mainly thought to provide security as for the whole system, or the cloud if you will. On the issue of personal security there would be the advantage that code can be only written for the machine if the enumeration of the instruction set is known. Since this is kept secret it can only be derived if the attacker can corner the machine with his own machine, similar a tor attack would work.

tl;dr I want to make a cloud computing version of tor, paid for with btc.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
Red Emerald
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile WWW
November 04, 2011, 08:50:46 PM
 #10

I would really like for my miner to somehow benefit Folding@Home, but all of the ways that I have thought to mix them results in slower bitcoin hashing.

fivebells
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


View Profile
November 05, 2011, 01:53:22 AM
 #11

I researched the restricted-execution options today, and you are right, it can be relatively secure.  However, it turns out that allowing arbitrary computations is infeasible for my purposes.  Still looking for good distributed-computation problems.
wareen
Millionaire
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742

bitcoin-austria.at


View Profile
November 05, 2011, 10:42:01 AM
 #12

Somewhat related to this thread: I'd totally pay for somebody's hashing capacity if he/she can prove that it is used for working on Folding@home (or similar) all the time unless Bitcoin needs it to quickly fend off a potential 51% attack.

This would be a kind of insurance service for the Bitcoin network because it makes transactions safer while at the same time contributing to a worthy cause.
jago25_98
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 871


http://moneybutnofixedabode.blogspot.com


View Profile WWW
November 06, 2011, 12:43:08 AM
 #13

Yes, I'd like to see the computational proof used to reduce the tenancy of money to clump into rich and poor areas.

It sounds far fetched but I think it's possible. We can map the network and we can show how networks tend to clump in areas. Investors predict this pattern in order to predict the market. If we can have that working in Bitcoin then we can solve a great many of the problems in life.
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!