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Author Topic: The most important thread YOU can contribute to .. this YEAR....no Kidding.  (Read 1046 times)
cryptohunter
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December 25, 2018, 05:25:52 AM
Last edit: December 28, 2018, 12:14:11 PM by cryptohunter
 #21

@cryptohunter

Let me put forward another theory that I believe.

Forum is a private forum that is administered by theymos. Might we think that theymos is not aware what is going in this forum but from my personal experience I observed that theymos reads everything here and seldom comments. He is fully aware what is going on this forum.
He has full power to start a very new system and scrap any of the existing system.

If a gang exists than it is not possible that he is not knowing. If he even not taking actions after knowing it then better to leave as it is (because all DT powers and Merit source powers coming from the system designed by theymos.)

I am not agreeing/disagreeing  with your gang theory but I am just saying you have created enough posts/thread about your views and I am sure your views already reached to forum administrator.  

What the problem you think will be rectified by him if he agrees.

So I will say, just take rest and enjoy and you have made enough effort in posting the issues you think.


I am honestly ready to forget this gang now because I realise they exist but I have no need to speak to them if they keep away from me.
In every thread  I entered (that they did not create about me) they have previously followed me and then bugged me with their ganging up ways. When I would not adopt their views or rather drop my own views they start to get a bit angry and also I don't much care for some of their talking down tone to people. This kind of intensified (my fault too but I can only take so much rough tone) and then when I got red trust and then attempts to get me banned I decided no more being civil with them. They are nothing I never even heard of them before except TP and he was just a minor person who did nothing so I barely remember him.

Anyway as i say I am not wanting some war to continue although of course since I only present observable facts I can not lose ever any war against me that wishes to deny these events . I actually told them many times that I wished to end the merit cycling discussion and they kept opening new threads and asking me more things. Then saying I am going on about it.

Now I realise although merit works to control newbie spam it must not relate to rank after snr member so that merit control only has power over the speech of the very new. If we must keep it.

I still do not see a rebuttal to my points even after actmyname put up a very impressive reply that made me think deeper but still I see the main crux of him saying just because it can happen does not mean it does happen ... is not sufficient.  This is not what trustless decentralised systems are all about. This board needs systems that does not need layers of central control that can easily be abused. Even if I considered them to be free of the optional abuse (which i do not) then the very fact they can be abused to control speech is not good at all and we should work to improve the system and reduce and central control of ideologies and ideas.

Of course maybe theymos might read this thread but I think theymos is very fair and also probably is quite busy in some very important jobs so maybe we can thrash out a great solution together then ask him how we can implement it once we have devised an improved solution. One man however great they are can not be expected to solve every single issue and as a community we must face up to how things are and deal with them not try to brush things under the rug.

I say again I never in 5 years had any problems with mods or theymos this board has been excellent but now I get told by those that asked for me to help some people are getting bullied and I did try to help  the first guy get his red trust removed (more trust abuse by that fool the pharmacist whom made false claims and tried to bully this poor newbie).  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5063753.0

I see more people getting bullied and scared to speak out and now they even dare try to bully me too. I see there is a problem and still it is not the mods and theymos bullying us it is some sub layer and they seemingly have power but no mandate and no criteria to keep them in check and this layer are just normal users who compete with other posters but have the power to tip things to their favour . The entire thing is quite insane to leave on this path.

Anyway I do not accuse all of these system controllers of abuse (some are very fair ) but some are (even if we believe a tiny amount I am not sure about that) but the fact it is open to abuse is not at all good.

I never said a solution is easy, I don't have a comprehensive one. However I have made some suggestions for improvements and I see no person explaining  why they can not help and why should not do it. Merit has had a nasty side effect of power over posters we need to reduce the set of users to which it can exert power to a tiny newbie subset and do all we can to stop collusion, force fair review and punish abusers. Seem common sense to me anyway.  

I am here to help this board not cause damage. I love this place. Can't let it all go down the drain. Free speech supported by reasonable argument must never be silenced. This is not in the spirit of decentralised trustless projects. Anyone who believes we should leave even a possibility of a small group having control and influence over peoples free expression is not part of the real community here.




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amishmanish
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December 28, 2018, 06:45:24 AM
 #22

I swear I tried. Going to pray first to one of my many Gods. I am thinking something the equivalent of:

"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me"
https://biblehub.com/psalms/23-4.htm

Once again derailed due by "Personal" life. Trying to claw my way back

F*** "No one ever said It would be this Hard!" -Coldplay
cryptohunter
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December 31, 2018, 12:47:35 PM
Last edit: December 31, 2018, 01:17:15 PM by cryptohunter
 #23

Interesting no successful rebuttal of the central point (that I can see) so far and yet the continued wittering on of how to leverage and use the subjective merit system (in its current form) to define low quality posters and high quality posters.

This thread serves as a prime example of why that will not be possible right now.

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December 31, 2018, 02:27:40 PM
 #24

I think you should start naming some names and providing more evidence on how both "systems" are being controlled by a particular group of members. If you think they are shutting down people by not giving the merits they are deserving as well as them giving neg trust to people they don't like this is clearly an abuse of the system as the way I see it is you are describing how this group is removing their competition for this limited "Paid2Post Campaigns". I won't be siding with anyone but your accusations are really big and without any proof being shown in your post it just makes you look like you are hating some of these people part of these sig campaigns.

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cryptohunter
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December 31, 2018, 03:46:41 PM
Last edit: January 04, 2019, 12:44:42 AM by cryptohunter
 #25

I think you should start naming some names and providing more evidence on how both "systems" are being controlled by a particular group of members. If you think they are shutting down people by not giving the merits they are deserving as well as them giving neg trust to people they don't like this is clearly an abuse of the system as the way I see it is you are describing how this group is removing their competition for this limited "Paid2Post Campaigns". I won't be siding with anyone but your accusations are really big and without any proof being shown in your post it just makes you look like you are hating some of these people part of these sig campaigns.


Make sure to read and fully understand that regarding my description of the systems of control there is no argument. That part is simply a description of how they work? There is clear motivation for abuse and they are clearly wide open to abuse. That is the factual and central point to tackle first and most importantly.

There is no point drilling down to an individual level (although i have done so already if you examine the thread but this is now i see a mistake because it clouds the bigger issue by introducing subjectivity.). You need to look at the system as a whole or you risk giving anecdotal individual experiences more weight than they should have.

However these drilled down claims can again be written off as anecdotal or an isolated case that has no real weight on the system value as a whole. This is obviously subjective although I believe corroborated by events clearly. I am shifting my focus from this to an objective clearly observable and undeniable presentation of pure fact based description of how the entire system works.

There is no real point in me criticising mikey for his anecdotal post if I rely only on anecdotal accounts myself. I am clearly demonstrating the system as a whole is as I say it is.

I mean there is no need for an opinion really . I am stating an observable account of how the systems currently operate and the facts they are wide open to abuse (well it is hard actually to abuse a subjective system if you want to put it like that so that makes it worse)  the facts there are clear motives to abuse and the fact of the small issue of subjective nature on what is deserving of merit . That's without the facts that posts that make clearly incorrect points may be assumed correct by system controllers anyway.

So you therefore have a system that at the very same time creates scores of very low or misleading value you also introduce a system of control of the many by the few that have the motive for selfish gain in terms of financial reward and also in terms of pushing their own person views.

If the only comeback to these facts is - - people may not choose to act selfishly at any point when there are clear financial rewards and clearly other rewards then you need to go back and have another look and think about it.

To help keep merit  ( that does help in some ways and i think could help a lot with a few improvements)

maybe these could help and maybe they will not

1. Put a filter on the merit scores like the removal of the top200-300 on the top 200 - 300 but perhaps leave 10%

2. No merit source can be a  trust source

3. If you are demonstrated to have given merit to an incorrect post or misleading post 3x you are removed from merit source for 6months and lose 100 merits. Learn to give merit to posts that are net positive only. Flying in early to a thread and pumping a ton of merit to a post you assume is correct then only at the end is that side of the debate debunked and shown to be incorrect means you simply added support to a flawed argument and proves you did not understand the topic - - therefore why should you be a merit source??

Not retrospective though -- from now on forward.

4. Make all legends merit sources.

5. Criteria that must be met for giving merit (fail 3x banned from merit source for 6 months)

6. Obvious and blatant merit abusers = 6 month ban and all merits gone.

7. Decouple merit from rank after snr unless all the above 6 can be introduced to avoid restriction of free speech after that rank.



Really I mean anyone not wishing to tighten up the merit system and prefer to leave if totally subjective are demanding it remains a low value metric and even a misleading one and wants the systems left open to abuse and the control over free speech being an obvious and factual possibility.

There is no room for opinion on HOW the systems operate. They operate as they operate.

The argument that some people may not act selfishly even if there are not rules to stop them doing so when there is financial rewards plus other rewards is as ludicrous as many other things I have heard since visiting meta.

It stands to reason before you start using merit scores as a tool to fix the board (more than just holding off everyone who does not get 1 merit from financial rewards in one way - which it does do and has helped plus account farmers) then you need to make the merit scores have some moderate value and not be misleading.  I think again that seems quite obvious and beyond argument too.


Ask yourselves whom would fight to stop things becoming "less open" to abuse?  at the same time as pushing for more systems to be grounded on these scores. Simple answer...

From now on please only post replies if you want to refute the core point regarding how the entire systems currently operate and improvements that can be made. I am not going to focus on gangs and bring in personal experiences going forward. These will cloud the main issue and I believe with the correct improvements it will solve any gang abuse or actually any individual abuse so win win.

I like merit but we need to just give it a few tweaks before more people are scared to say what they want even if it may be true.

Perhaps first even going back to basics and the real core.... what is a net positive post... what is a net negative post...






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January 04, 2019, 04:21:57 PM
Merited by cryptohunter (1)
 #26

So anyway now you have a board where people are not able to post in a normal way and express their views as they like without considering the implications not of the mods but rather of these system controllers. They need to actually support those system controllers or remain silent when they are confronted with the "system controllers" ideologies and claims. This power is far more apparent over new members or anyone who wants to progress up the ranks or continue trading without a red scam warning flashing next to you.

thank you for posting this conclusion. i think you are right.


However, now that I have had those good legends tell me they would like to support me but will not for fully understandable reasons I start to see just how bad things are.



You have my support. But nobody will care. Because I am not one of the "system controllers".



Since newbies realise this they consider that fact it will take perhaps 100yrs to become a legend if you post in a normal way on the discussion forums and are an average level poster then they see they have no chance other than to game the system.


only if they care about their rank.
and i can understand that people care about their rank. and not just because they want to be able to be in a "Paid2Post Campaign".
but because the have something important to say and they are most of the time just ignored because of their rank.


I don't really know. I am in favour of removing sigs for everyone


I think this would be an option.

and I don't know why this have been done already.

thats why i have to ask this questions:
more sig-spamming => more traffic?
more traffic => more money for the "owners" of this forum?
is this the reason that paid sigs are here?


edit: corrected some typos

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cryptohunter
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January 04, 2019, 06:21:53 PM
Last edit: January 04, 2019, 06:46:01 PM by cryptohunter
 #27

So anyway now you have a board where people are not able to post in a normal way and express their views as they like without considering the implications not of the mods but rather of these system controllers. They need to actually support those system controllers or remain silent when they are confronted with the "system controllers" ideologies and claims. This power is far more apparent over new members or anyone who wants to progress up the ranks or continue trading without a red scam warning flashing next to you.

thank you for posting this conclusion. i think you are right.


However, now that I have had those good legends tell me they would like to support me but will not for fully understandable reasons I start to see just how bad things are.



You have my support. But nobody will care. Because I am not one of the "system controllers".



Since newbies realise this they consider that fact it will take perhaps 100yrs to become a legend if you post in a normal way on the discussion forums and are an average level poster then they see they have no chance other than to game the system.


only if they care about their rank.
and i can understand that people care about their rank. and not just because they want to be able to be in a "Paid2Post Campaign".
but because the have something important to say and they are most of the time just ignored because of their rank.


I don't really know. I am in favour of removing sigs for everyone


I think this would be an option.

and I don't know why this have been done already.

thats why i have to ask this questions:
more sig-spamming => more traffic?
more traffic => more money for the "owners" of this forum?
is this the reason that paid sigs are here?


edit: corrected some typos

Thank you for being one of the only persons here that seem to be able to process facts as being facts and not some opinion.
The systems as they are now are simply operating as I have described.
I fully agree with what you said too.

Regarding your very last part. I don't think the "owners" of this forum care about money any more I mean I expect they are beyond wealthy. The owners I think are fair and just want to encourage as many people as possible to join in and be part of this movement.

I can not speculate on the owners intentions for leaving sigs. However I can guess only that it is for a good reason in that they may think that to encourage the network effect of this decentralised trustless movement it will help if new people can earn a little bit along the way with no investment other than their time since they may not have much money to invest. I totally sympathise with this view and agree with it and would prefer we developed a fair, objective and transparent system that can provide everyone equal opportunity of contributing,. In other words a true meritocracy. If we try all things and still we see gaming/abuse from both the top and the bottom then removing sigs will be the best way to go.

The problem is here in meta it consists of people mainly at the top end  and those already controlling the paid2post system. So why would they want any change?

This you will notice is why although there is no real argument the current systems are as I describe them there is little motivation here to change them to a fairer system and indeed a far more valuable system for the entire movement.

I have no doubt that these systems were introduced with very good intentions and they have done some good. However it is very difficult to code out systems that can not be gamed or abused. Honestly creating a system here that works like a perfect meritocracy is likely impossible but I do not doubt given enought time and the willing we can together create something much more akin to the projects we are interested in here.  

Thanks very much for joining this thread and commenting and great to know some people even legends are open to change and improvements.


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