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Author Topic: [StrikeSapphire: REP FRIENDLY] Casino operators, let's talk.  (Read 3628 times)
zer0
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November 14, 2011, 06:00:29 AM
 #21

O-shi.. lol, thought you were looking for US players. Since you're not, there's no reason you can't put a payment gateway on your site friendly to casino's that accepts prepaid payments only, stuff like Ukash, CashU, Cash-ticket, various Russian ATM services, Boleto Bancário, and all the other cash based payments with no chargeback risk (just opt out of all US payment options). Your own casino can easily convert them into bitcoins for the customers and load their accounts after payment clears, which is fast for prepaid methods sometimes instantly.

  • customer uses 200+ prepaid and live methods (no chargeback) through your gateway
  • gateway dumps funds into an ecoin.cc, or technocash account, or a bank account at the same institution as MtGox/whoever you want to trade with
  • their account magically loaded with bitcoins ready to play as you change them in the background
  • build separate site that will cash out the coins to ATM card, WU, wires, whatever you want
  • resell those coins you buy back to future customers, save on exchange fees or sell back to exchange

Should also sign some sort of contract with BTC-E.com check out their payment gateway, all of CIS/Russia can use dozens of methods to get bitcoins to pay into your casino. Get cheap advertising from them on their site or something out of the deal, plus a good exchange rate.

I'd take the casino offer but am building a monster of a cash payment bitcoin gateway right now partly out of my own need for one to exist to point customers to. Would be good for casino payments too
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November 14, 2011, 03:01:27 PM
 #22

It would be great if a site existed to trade Ukash/perfectmoney/etc. to BTC and vice versa. The big question then is where does that site land the funds from Ukash? The site's profit would be a very small percentage of the cash it had to move through the banking system and into Bitcoin. I don't think using Mtgox's bank would make sense, with all the problems they're having in Europe.

This raises the question of why Tradehill and Mtgox don't accept Ukash or PerfectMoney vouchers themselves. I have no idea what the reason is for that, but I'd assume they've looked into it...

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November 15, 2011, 12:49:55 AM
 #23

ecardone the biggest Liberty Reserve exchanger takes Ukash directly somehow. problem with Ukash is they only pay out once a month, and will sock you with enormous fees as they've already signed agreements with wm-transfer (web money) and don't like working with other currencies, being that they are trying to build a corporate monopoly. the minimum fee to accept Ukash/PaysafeCards/CashU is something like 7%, and gambling and other high risk sites (or e-currency) are typically fleeced with 15-30% fees.

signing a direct contract with Ukash also means you must cash something like min $2-5k a month with them, and trying to just get a hold of a sales rep to register your company is like pulling teeth. if you promise them $10k a month in transactions maybe they will reduce your fees to 7%. maybe. that's not $10k in sales, that's minimum $10k in transfer fees you promise to pay them monthly. this is why there are so many Ukash brokers around, because they can trade around $5k a day in Ukash so are better to work with than Ukash directly.

Ukash was basically invented to facilitate online gambling, you'd have no problem taking it directly then using it to convert into bitcoins in the background for your customers. just find a payment gateway with it already built in and now you don't have to wait until the end of the month, the gateway pays you out within 48hrs sometimes same day. hopefully the gateway you pick does Cash-Ticket (European ATM payments), Russian ATM payments, Alipay (china), and local debit cards too. All non reversible transactions

http://www.paybycash.com/options/ almost all of these are prepaid/non reversible. I have no clue when paybycash pays out to merchants or what their fees are, but they're certainly not the only game around. typical payment gateway will charge you 10% for PSC and Ukash payments.

adyen.com is probably has the most options for prepaid customers, almost every country in the world somebody can deposit money or pay with a local cash card. they work with online casinos, and are based in the EU. just tell them no US payments. they also don't make you sign any contracts with minimum sales, you pay like 0.30 Euro per transaction for most payments, 10-20% for all the card and voucher systems. would be worth it, now somebody in Argentina or Brazil can walk into a supermarket and pay to get into your casino. if you apply to any gateways, don't say anything about Bitcoin. they don't need to know you are exchanging the money into something else. that will just add confusion, most of the sales reps are just drones anyways.

as for perfect money I don't trust them. they seem to be floated by the Hyip industry and at anytime could be seized/disappear or end up bankrupt like Euro Gold Cash went under. you could however as a casino probably sign a direct contract with them that they will buy back the PM wholesale from you at a favourable rate you can then trade into bitcoins.

if you really want to go sketchy, sign up with solid trust pay. they let you do visa/mc transactions, accept 3rd party wires, all sorts of shit. could float a bitcoin casino using them safely.. seems they ironed out most of their problems when they started out

also, this is the reason i'm building my own voucher system, because i hate Ukash/PSC and the other corporate voucher systems. big contracts, high fees, no way for small biz to get in. this voucher specifically geared towards cryptocurrencies payouts for merchants




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November 15, 2011, 05:27:50 PM
 #24

Hm. Just contacted PayByCash to see what they could do. Turns out they're owned by Visa  Roll Eyes

Their requirements follow the Patriot Act, as they say.
http://docs.playspan.com/display/wiki/Settlement+Requirements

Foreign corporations have to fill in a W-8 form for the IRS. The funny thing about that is, I mentioned we were a casino and didn't want to take American payments. It would be illegal under UIGEA for them to route payments to a casino via the US banking system anyway; I can only assume they're not doing that, so I don't know wtf the Patriot Act or the IRS has to do with anything; I don't think we'll get real far with this one though.

You're right about Ukash's ridiculous fees, and I wish there was a better option... I'll check out Adyen and see about that, it might be a good middleman for this kind of thing.

If we started processing prepaid cards and vouchers, I don't know that we'd want to deal with withdrawals to those methods anyway. We could just take those methods for deposit and give all withdrawals in Bitcoins. If that's the case, I don't see why we'd bother to set up a separate site. We could just let people deposit to the casino any way they want, and take out Bitcoins when they want. Then we could do those conversions without charging a fee, we'd just pass along whatever the voucher processor charged us, and our income would come from people who decided to stay and play some slots. We'd just have to break even on the costs we were paying to the voucher processor, not charge a fee of our own.

I'm interested in what you're setting up. I've been through dozens of meetings with people who've floated ways of processing for us and you seem to know more about it than almost any of them.

zer0
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November 16, 2011, 07:36:39 AM
 #25

The voucher scheme I have would work for you, if you wanted to create StrikeSapphireUSD and have resellers sell it around the world, then take no risk funds from them for free instantly and trade it with MtGox/Tradehill/CryptoXchange into bitcoins for no send fees but minus their usual trade fees. I'm just seeing if I can automate the entire process. Will PM details sometime this week. If your software can be notified by bitcoind that a payment has been made then you can implement this already through technocash API

Startup costs: $200 to buy a technocash gfx account
http://www.technocash.com/pages/pds_GFXaccount.cfm
Ongoing costs: Nothing

Best part is you can offer your players to cash out via any digital currency, or direct method not just bitcoins and still pay nothing in fees.

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November 17, 2011, 01:43:56 AM
 #26

Great thread,

At this point, I think one of the first things agenda wise should be creating a video explaining exactly how to get bitcoins and then cash them out.  We need to have this aimed at the common person and really make it as simple as possible to understand.

bitcoin poker www.btcontilt.com
Staring Owl
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November 07, 2012, 03:54:16 PM
 #27

are those efforts stuck guys?

at least a tutorial, text and screenshots for easiest/fastest way to buy some bitcoins would be great for start. Video even better.
I bet a lot of people from the community will link to whoever makes that.

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Staring Owl
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November 15, 2012, 03:59:50 PM
 #28

Yeah I guess it's stuck.
Seems bitcoin only based casinos don't do any significant profits to be worth it yet.

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ssaCEO
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November 16, 2012, 05:58:19 PM
 #29

A casino might be a cool place to send people to should they choose the red pill
Unfortunately that nice page to send noobs to does not exist yet. This is one of the biggest things holding bitcoin back imho.
(ill probably have to hack something together if I want to do this, I am surprised a simple tutorial for getting into bitcoin isn't out there yet)

BitcoinsForChristmas.com is still fully functional, and will act as a free service this Christmas just like last year. It does have a nice walkthrough tutorial when someone sends you coins, explaining how to set up MultiBit and receive your gift, and then goes on to show you places where you can spend your gift. Unfortunately, both founders (GoWest and myself) have been too pressed for time to promote it properly this year. We could use some help; PM me if you're interested in being involved.

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November 17, 2012, 10:53:26 PM
 #30

I can't go to your site.  It says my local laws prevent it...  But other sites aren't blocked... Does that mean it's illegal for me to use other sites?

Also, do you have an app for your site on the Android market?  I thought I saw someone talking about that.  Perhaps that's another site.

What laws do you have to play by if you're using your phone?  Is it where you're standing?  Where the signal is coming from?  I'm sure some lawyers have already had this discussion by now...

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ssaCEO
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November 18, 2012, 04:40:38 PM
 #31

I can't go to your site.  It says my local laws prevent it...  But other sites aren't blocked... Does that mean it's illegal for me to use other sites?

It probably just means it's illegal for other sites to take your bets. As of right now, there are only a few countries which criminalize the end-user side of the equation, and prosecute players who play at an online casino. No western democracy does this. Ironically, we do not bother to block the countries that do, so you have a better chance of getting to our site from China or Saudi Arabia than you do from the States (but then again, if you get caught it's your problem).

But effectively, if you live in the US and succeed in playing on our site, you're creating more problems for us than you're creating for yourself. To the extent that we (or anyone) understands the tangle of US online gaming law, the onus is on us to do our best to keep you out. From our perspective this is a difficult, non-trivial use of our time and resources which has an incredibly harmful effect on our business - but as it's a price we've been willing to pay, we ask Americans to respectfully help us by spending their efforts trying to change their laws rather than trying to find ways to break the laws of their own country and enter our site.

Also, do you have an app for your site on the Android market?  I thought I saw someone talking about that.  Perhaps that's another site.

Our site is entirely web based (it's a single Flash application). While there is no Android-specific deployment, we have heard of people able to play using Android tabs with the flash browser plugin. We don't expect newer Android devices to work.

What laws do you have to play by if you're using your phone?  Is it where you're standing?  Where the signal is coming from?  I'm sure some lawyers have already had this discussion by now...

By and large, if you are playing from an IP address outside the United States, then we consider the play to be coming from outside the US. Beyond our two layers of automatic blocking, we manually analyze all logins multiple times daily and have a number of criteria for manually blacklisting. We block proxies to the fullest extent possible given the nature of the internet. What players need to know is that deliberate attempts to falsify their location are considered a violation of our terms of service, and will result in suspension of their accounts - including confiscation of funds.

If we weren't using Bitcoin, none of this would be a problem. That's because no payment service that does business with online casinos is still operating legally in the US. We could rest assured that we weren't taking payments from the States because it would be the payment processor's ass on the line. The argument could be made with Bitcoin that the real payment processor is the money transmitter who people bought and sold their Bitcoins from - however, we do not feel that those processors should be held responsible for how coins are used, and we also believe that if the US gov't wanted to make a case against Bitcoin they would start with SR and the casinos. So we believe it's our responsibility to play by the rules and that we don't have the right to get other Bitcoin businesses into trouble by irresponsibly violating national laws.

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