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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 50190 times)
mindrust
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June 12, 2019, 05:40:56 AM
Last edit: June 12, 2019, 06:03:05 AM by mindrust
 #1741

I had no idea mindrust was Turkish, he’s a cool guy. I like him a lot.

@Lauda - kedi is cat in Turkish, according to google.

I believe I told you about it several times already. You weren't paying attention LFC. Smiley I like tou too.

Btw I have no idea how Lauda missed me. On the contrary of what the other guy says, I post in the Turkish forum from time to time. Just not overdoing it. (I am also against the circlejerking gangs)

If anyone cares, this is how I think about the new system:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg51430762#msg51430762

achow101 is a core developer (or contributor) as far as I know. (and a forum staff member) Why did he get removed is beyond me. If he doesn't deserve to be a DT1 member, why the fuck do I?

Anyway I am happy to be included in DT1 but tbh I don't really care. Actually, I don't want to care.

Being a DT member gets you into drama. I don't want any of it.

Here comes the drama.

"Great power comes with great drama." -uncle theymos




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theymos
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June 12, 2019, 05:56:11 AM
Merited by Foxpup (1)
 #1742

Well, that's a change Cheesy I'll need some time to process this, maybe probably it's for the better, but it looks like theymos now officially got himself a part-time job as a quasi-lawyer?

I am one of the world's foremost experts on quasi-law, after all. Surely you've read my widely-cited article in the Journal of Laws or Whatever titled, "A new approach to the rigorous design of legal systems: just worry about it later."

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
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June 12, 2019, 06:20:38 AM
 #1743


The current way for entry is too easy. EFS basically single-handedly introduced several random people from his section by merit gifting them over the past few months. Are any of these people trustworthy or have shown relevant, and proper judgement in trust-related matters? Nope.


I have to agree this is true, and most of these newly minted hero members of the Turkish forum (and some of their lower ranked buddies) seem to be always acting in lockstep unison, like a hive minded tribe, is that ok & ethical ? I can totally understand why an independent observer wouldn't consider the current state of the Turkish forums democratic, meritocratic or fair in any way...

FACT#2: At least 5-6 guys on the Turkish forums orchestrated tremendous collusion on telegram for the purpose of exchanging merits back and forth between themselves here and then recommending each others' posts constantly to local and global merit sources, is that all right as well (a few of these guys have already been banned for other reasons by the way)?

Now a good number of that same group of people seem to be rooting for each other for DT lists. If these are all valid tactics to become green trusted hero / legendary members with the hopes of landing some lucrative bounties in the future, then congratulations to them I guess Smiley

In all honesty, I can guarantee you there are really high quality and intellectual posters on the Turkish forums, but some of them have been discouraged by the strange things going on there (and rarely even post anymore), so a more democratic & organic approach to Merit and Trust distribution for the Turkish section would be hugely appreciated.

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Lauda
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June 12, 2019, 06:23:00 AM
 #1744

The current way for entry is too easy. EFS basically single-handedly introduced several random people from his section by merit gifting them over the past few months. Are any of these people trustworthy or have shown relevant, and proper judgement in trust-related matters? Nope.
I have to agree this is true, and most of these newly minted hero members of the Turkish forum (and some of their lower ranked buddies) seem to be always acting in lockstep unison, like a hive minded tribe, is that ok & ethical ? I can totally understand why an independent observer wouldn't consider the current state of the Turkish forums democratic, meritocratic or fair in any way...

FACT#2: At least 5-6 guys on the Turkish forums orchestrated tremendous collusion on telegram for the purpose of exchanging merits back and forth between themselves here and then recommending each other's posts constantly to local and global merit sources, is that all right as well (a few of these guys have already been banned for other reasons by the way)?

Now a good number of that same group of people seem to be rooting for each other for DT lists. If these are all valid tactics to become green trusted hero / legendary members with the hopes of landing some lucrative bounties in the future, then congratulations to them I guess Smiley

In all honesty, I can guarantee you there are really high quality and intellectual posters on the Turkish forums, but some of them have been discouraged by the strange things going on there (and rarely even post anymore), so a more democratic & organic approach to Merit and Trust distribution for the Turkish section would be hugely appreciated.
I wonder what they'll do now, since they can't cry the racism card on you. Roll Eyes I'll work with you to get some more input on that exclusion list.

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June 12, 2019, 07:24:19 AM
 #1745

While I will reserve my judgement of the outcome of the new trust system implementations, I must say I find them highly encouraging and I very much support the intent if not the outcome. Good work Theymos.

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Lauda
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June 12, 2019, 08:05:05 AM
 #1746

4) A few users have been PM'd about this, some of which are in the exclusion list[1].
[1] I took the opposite path of getting adequate number of exclusions and went straight to the root of the problem. You can follow this in order to see how pawns will not behave according to your theory.
Hello.

I'm suggesting that you remove the following user from your trust lists: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=158678. Leaving him in there means that you trust the judgement of a fraud, which in return means that your own judgement is compromised.
goraset is a well known and popular figure in the Turkish community.
He contributes to the community with his article translations.
The negative rating given does not change my confidence in him.
however, I will remove it from my list due to your warning.
Do I get your permission to publish your response?
You can publish.
Case proven: He only removed the fraud/scammer because I mentioned that I will have to exclude him due to such inclusions, not because the user is actually a scammer. Have fun.

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Matthias9515
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June 12, 2019, 11:40:32 AM
Last edit: June 12, 2019, 12:00:52 PM by Matthias9515
 #1747

I wonder what they'll do now, since they can't cry the racism card on you. Roll Eyes I'll work with you to get some more input on that exclusion list.

I don't know why Vispilio slander but i want him to prove his claims. This election was fair and natural, people know Theymos can see all ip logs.

And you are still racist.
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June 12, 2019, 12:04:35 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4), malevolent (1)
 #1748


I am one of the world's foremost experts on quasi-law, after all. Surely you've read my widely-cited article in the Journal of Laws or Whatever titled, "A new approach to the rigorous design of legal systems: just worry about it later."

I especially like your cod quasi-legalese jargon.
Did you type the following with a quill stylus?

Quote
violated a casual or implied agreement, resulting in damages, in the specific act referenced 

Quote
make the victims of this act roughly whole, AND it is not the case that all of the victims forgave the act. It is not grossly inaccurate to say that the act occurred


Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence
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June 12, 2019, 02:15:46 PM
 #1749


I am one of the world's foremost experts on quasi-law, after all. Surely you've read my widely-cited article in the Journal of Laws or Whatever titled, "A new approach to the rigorous design of legal systems: just worry about it later."

I especially like your cod quasi-legalese jargon.
Did you type the following with a quill stylus?

Quote
violated a casual or implied agreement, resulting in damages, in the specific act referenced 

Quote
make the victims of this act roughly whole, AND it is not the case that all of the victims forgave the act. It is not grossly inaccurate to say that the act occurred

Agreed. Kudos for preempting the semantic circus and being specific. You can definitely tell he consulted some legal guides  Tongue

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June 22, 2019, 09:12:50 PM
Last edit: June 23, 2019, 10:00:50 AM by marlboroza
 #1750

I don't think this is normal DT behavior https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5152921.msg51564704#msg51564704

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July 01, 2019, 06:30:31 PM
 #1751

Removed:
Quote
< Tomatocage
< Dabs
< babo
< monkeynuts
< vizique
< Blazed
< EcuaMobi
< minerjones
< LFC_Bitcoin
< mhanbostanci
< actmyname
< Halab
< Silent26
< iasenko
< mikeywith

Added:
Quote
> dooglus
> SebastianJu
> Lauda
> by rallier
> TheNewAnon135246
> suchmoon
> achow101
> The Pharmacist
> DarkStar_
> ekiller
> Gunthar
> finaleshot2016
> AlyattesLydia
> bavicrypto
> witcher_sense

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5117330.msg51673716#msg51673716

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July 01, 2019, 06:38:37 PM
 #1752

Was Lauda not blacklisted because of his shenanigans when the flag system was implemented?

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July 01, 2019, 06:53:33 PM
 #1753

Removed:
Quote
< Dabs
Dabs was the larges "selfscratcher". He dropped from +42 to just +6 without his own DT2-inclusions.

Was Lauda not blacklisted because of his shenanigans when the flag system was implemented?
No.

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July 02, 2019, 06:57:53 AM
 #1754


Was Lauda not blacklisted because of his shenanigans when the flag system was implemented?
No.
This was a rhetorical question.

Lauda should be blacklisted for what happened when the flag system was implemented, along with his long history of abusing the trust system, among other reasons why he is untrustworthy.

Blacklisting Lauda would be mostly symbolic because he almost certainly had the foresight to either build up or buy alt account(s), some of which are likely unknown to the administration. Further, people who are separate from lauda have noticed how he made a name for himself, and are mirroring his previous actions, and are trying to emulate him in an attempt to achieve similar results. (I think lauda did some other things that others have not picked up on that were not genuine on the part of lauda, that cemented his support among certain very influential people). My opinion is the damage to the community caused by lauda is irreversible. 

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July 02, 2019, 07:05:44 AM
 #1755

Interesting how the number of eligible users went down from 111 to 104. That means only 4 members got Theymos Snapped this month.

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July 02, 2019, 07:10:31 AM
 #1756

Interesting how the number of eligible users went down from 111 to 104. That means only 4 members got Theymos Snapped this month.
Some people removed their trust list entirely, and some people presumably did not post within the last 30 days, both disqualifying their eligibility.

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LoyceV
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July 02, 2019, 07:25:46 AM
Last edit: July 02, 2019, 11:28:15 AM by LoyceV
 #1757

This was a rhetorical question.
Lol, I missed that Tongue

Quote
Lauda should be blacklisted for what happened when the flag system was implemented
I think it's commendable that theymos is trying to not be a dictator here.

OgNasty currently has 16 inclusions and 16 exclusions on DT1.
Lauda currently has 26 inclusions and 24 exclusions on DT1. A month ago, the number of inclusions was 26 higher than the number of exclusions.

Judging by these numbers, I'd say Lauda is now more controversial than OgNasty. I also think the current DT-system is something Lauda can't win. I described a hostile takeover scenario in January, and I think something similar will eventually remove Lauda from DT: Lauda excluded and tagged many users and that lead to many users excluding Lauda in exchange (see most excluded users). Once more users meet the Merit requirements for DT1-voting, DT1 becomes more decentralized and more and more of the users who excluded Lauda get to vote against DT1-members.

TheNewAnon135246
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July 02, 2019, 01:36:57 PM
 #1758

Yeah, I bet Lauda pissed off a lot of DT1 election/merit farmers from local sections.

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Quickseller
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July 08, 2019, 07:25:32 AM
 #1759

This was a rhetorical question.
Lol, I missed that Tongue

Quote
Lauda should be blacklisted for what happened when the flag system was implemented
I think it's commendable that theymos is trying to not be a dictator here.

OgNasty currently has 16 inclusions and 16 exclusions on DT1.
Lauda currently has 26 inclusions and 24 exclusions on DT1. A month ago, the number of inclusions was 26 higher than the number of exclusions.

Judging by these numbers, I'd say Lauda is now more controversial than OgNasty. I also think the current DT-system is something Lauda can't win.
I don't find OgNasty to be controversial. In fact, the only controversial thing I can think of OgNasty ever doing is wearing a signature of a shady company for a couple of weeks that I don't believe had actually scammed anyone (but IIRC were operating in a very shady way). When OgNasty was 1 of ~10 DT1 members, he had excluded many people who were very high profile because they posted a lot, but had no real trading experience and had no business being on DT.

In regards to your point that theymos is not acting as a dictator, you fail to account for the fact that whoever controls the algorithm controls the output. He also has great influence on the inputs by controlling the merit sources and how much each source gets. When google doesn't want particular pages displayed prominently on their search results, they don't blacklist websites, they just tinker with the algorithm to get their desired results.

There are also many examples of people leaving many controversial ratings over time who are already on DT who see no real pushback against their ratings. There are also examples of people facing retribution in the form of frivolous negative ratings (bill gator), and trust exclusions (bill gator and teeGUMES) for making statements that goes against the "crowd".

In order for the trust system to have any credibility, there needs to be rules (some of which were recently implemented with the flag system), and they need to be enforced (which does not appear to be the case). When the system is not being used appropriately, there needs to be intervention, period. If there is no intervention, those who speak out will see mass exclusions, and others will see this and be afraid to speak out. Without intervention, the forum will become more like most countries in the Middle east, China, or North Korea, in which citizens are jailed when they are critical of the government.

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July 09, 2019, 03:18:02 PM
 #1760

DT member sent negative feedback to victim and opposed red flag together with some other signature participants Cool

Maybe social experiment system needs additional changes?

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