DefaultTrust changes

[Timelord2067]

...

That leads to Trust Selfscratchers: DT1-members who include (almost) every user who ever left them positive feedback on their Trust list. The #1 (not on DT1 this month) is Staff member Dabs, who's still included by theymos.

Back on topic...

Loyce, your self scratcher list you cite http://loyce.club/trust/selfscratchers/ is now 15 weeks out of date.

Off topic again, have you noticed your merits and my post count have been neck-and-neck for weeks now?  

Apparently my 1 comment outweighs the continuous cancerous behaviour he has been displaying, resulting in merit rewards.

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many Spock?

I've just finished telling Yoshi that he needs to rise above it all now that he's on DT2.  May I suggest you go back through my merit list - I think you'll be surprised who and for what I've given merits for in the past.

[1714046150]

1714046150

[1714046150]

1714046150

[lighpulsar07]

2. Each DT2-member must have been active and posting in the past 6 months (this gets rid of abandoned accounts on DT2)

Well i don't think this is a good idea since some of inactive DT 2 members like diamondcardz (inactive) and Zepher (RIP) (not just them) neg rated scammers and trolls months or years ago. if they removed from the DT network, their feedbacks on those scammers will be invalidated since they aren't in the trust network anymore. it will be a mess and a lot of work for other DT members to retagged all of the users who were tagged by DT users who were gone in this forum months or years ago.

[Timelord2067]

2. Each DT2-member must have been active and posting in the past 6 months (this gets rid of abandoned accounts on DT2)

Well i don't think this is a good idea since some of inactive DT 2 members like diamondcardz (inactive since 2015) and Zepher (RIP) (not just them) neg rated scammers and trolls months or years ago. if they removed from the DT network, their feedbacks on those scammers will be invalidated since they aren't in the trust network anymore. it will be a mess and a lot of work for other DT members to retagged all of the users who were tagged by DT users who were gone in this forum months or years ago.

True, but if the users who voted them in one and all become inactive - what then? Make exceptions based on who gave the most Red Paint ™

[Upgrade00]

if they removed from the DT network, their feedbacks on those scammers will be invalidated since they aren't in the trust network anymore. it will be a mess and a lot of work for other DT members to retagged all of the users who were tagged by DT users who were gone in this forum months or years ago.

But conversely, it also means that the tags are permanent and even if a user proves themselves trustworthiness again, or their earlier accusation is dropped the tag would still remain as the DT members are no longer active. This also works in cases of users they positively trusted who prove not to be trustworthy.
Trustworthiness is not static and should be changing as circumstances do.

[Vispilio]

There's definitely more drama, and it involves more people now. Theymos wanted less retaliation, but I think it got worse. There's now DT-representation on local boards (which is good), but it often clashes when it reaches outside the local board. We've seen drama with "the Russians", and more recently "the Turkish": This thread was created yesterday, including an incorrect Flag. It's Opposed by people from many different countries, but Supported by 7 people from the same local board.

You are aware that suchmoon just put about 7 people on negative trust for supporting a flag against Timelord because s/he believes the flag was opened incorrectly, so s/he proceeded to threaten people to remove their support from the flag or otherwise remain neg. trusted indefinitely...

Do you really believe that's an untrustworthy offense, or is that a manipulative power play ?.. We now know you and suchmoon want to consolidate all decision making in the forum in the hands of your friends, what do other forum members think ?

what does theymos think ? I'm really just asking out of curiosity.

Can there be a worse case of retaliation and trust system abuse than putting people on negative trust for defending themselves, and then blackmailing them ?

This is arguably worse than the case of Timelord2067 because suchmoon is far smarter than Timelord2067 and is close friends with tens of DT1 members who would find it very hard to go against their friend, no matter how irrational and unfair her actions may be...

[suchmoon]

You are aware that suchmoon just put about 7 people on negative trust for supporting a flag against Timelord because s/he believes the flag was opened incorrectly, so s/he proceeded to threaten people to remove their support from the flag or otherwise remain neg. trusted indefinitely...

I don't think I neg-trusted anyone, just excluded you all from my trust list. It's a logical step considering that the flag is bullshit, I oppose it, and I don't trust the judgement of users who support it for reasons incompatible with the flag system (i.e. opinions vs facts).

Can there be a worse case of retaliation and trust system abuse than putting people on negative trust for defending themselves, and then blackmailing them ?

What am I retaliating for? The flag is not against me. I'm excluding Timelord as well and I'm opposing his flag too. Whom am I blackmailing? There is no secret information to reveal.

[Vispilio]

I don't think I neg-trusted anyone, just excluded you all from my trust list. It's a logical step considering that the flag is bullshit, I oppose it, and I don't trust the judgement of users who support it for reasons incompatible with the flag system (i.e. opinions vs facts).

Let's be completely honest, we are talking about flag type 1 against "high risk" people, not contractual violations or scams; therefore it's not a case of opinion vs fact, but really subjective opinion vs subjective opinion,

if the global community's majority opinion outweighs ours that timelord is not a high risk candidate, then the flag will be inactive, and system is working as intended, no need for you to interfere aggressively, unless you want your opinion dictated as the authoritative "fact"

which brings us to your other point:

What am I retaliating for? The flag is not against me. I'm excluding Timelord as well and I'm opposing his flag too. Whom am I blackmailing? There is no secret information to reveal.

you are retaliating against losing your oligarchic authority in the trust system. You don't want strangers that you are not comfortable with having any power in the forum, you want to consolidate it amongst a few friends of yours with whom you share the same subjective life views and value systems apparently.

So you play these power games, abusing the little authority given to you by theymos' legal experiments to manipulate the innocent and not so experienced local forum participants... Not ethical at all suchmoon, but who is going to stop you, this is not a courtroom, and your friends are not incentivized enough to break their camaraderie with you over minor moral details, even though all of the intellectual ones would probably secretly agree with everything I've just said.

All the Best

[stompix]

you are retaliating against losing your oligarchic authority in the trust system. You don't want strangers that you are not comfortable with having any power in the forum, you want to consolidate it amongst a few friends of yours with whom you share the same subjective life views and value systems apparently.

I'm going to hate myself for poking the beehive at 1 am after 3 refreshments but...isn't the trust system exactly about this?

Why the hell would somebody choose to trust the opinions and views of a stranger with whom he doesn't agree?
Isn't it normal to add to your trust list people who have the same views as you on the majority of cases?
Lauda adding QS and Tman OgNasty, that should be fun...
Seriously, you speak of courtrooms but this is like the prosecution accusing the defendant of lying but saying they trust every word they say.

Of course, I'm expecting to be labeled as a suchmoon lackey for this since I have him or her on my trust list.

[suchmoon]

Let's be completely honest, we are talking about flag type 1 against "high risk" people, not contractual violations or scams; therefore it's not a case of opinion vs fact, but really subjective opinion vs subjective opinion,

If we're being honest, here's what it says on the flag itself (emphasis mine):

Vispilio alleges: Due largely to the factors mentioned in this topic, I believe that anyone dealing with Timelord2067 is at a high risk of losing money, and guests would be well-advised to avoid doing so. This determination is based on concrete red flags which any knowledgeable & reasonable forum user should agree with, and it is not based on the user's opinions.

So when you (and others) keep repeating that the flag is based on opinions I must conclude that you either don't know how it's supposed to work or deliberately ignore it, both good reasons to exclude you. Your thread does not show any indication of Timelord2067 posing a high risk of losing money, instead it is full of hyperbole and hurt feelings. Not a good fit with the trust system.

you are retaliating against losing your oligarchic authority in the trust system. You don't want strangers that you are not comfortable with having any power in the forum, you want to consolidate it amongst a few friends of yours with whom you share the same subjective life views and value systems apparently.

So you play these power games, abusing the little authority given to you by theymos' legal experiments to manipulate the innocent and not so experienced local forum participants... Not ethical at all suchmoon, but who is going to stop you, this is not a courtroom, and your friends are not incentivized enough to break their camaraderie with you over minor moral details, even though all of the intellectual ones would probably secretly agree with everything I've just said.

DT1 is capped at 100 and my exclusions have no influence over the candidate pool. I have the same chance to drop out of DT1 next month as any other candidate regardless of how many of those imaginary "friends" I have and said "friends" are not rushing to parrot my exclusions either. So this conspiracy theory doesn't make sense.

I have stopped caring about the DT impact of my decisions. I'm managing my trust list based solely on how I personally want to see trust ratings and flags, and I expect others to do the same with regards to me.

[owlcatz]

DT1 is capped at 100 and my exclusions have no influence over the candidate pool. I have the same chance to drop out of DT1 next month as any other candidate regardless of how many of those imaginary "friends" I have and said "friends" are not rushing to parrot my exclusions either. So this conspiracy theory doesn't make sense.

I have stopped caring about the DT impact of my decisions. I'm managing my trust list based solely on how I personally want to see trust ratings and flags, and I expect others to do the same with regards to me.

Yes. Same here at this point. I have not the time for such BS anymore either.... Great points there SM.

Cheers,
Owl

[Vispilio]

If we're being honest, here's what it says on the flag itself (emphasis mine):

Vispilio alleges: Due largely to the factors mentioned in this topic, I believe that anyone dealing with Timelord2067 is at a high risk of losing money, and guests would be well-advised to avoid doing so. This determination is based on concrete red flags which any knowledgeable & reasonable forum user should agree with, and it is not based on the user's opinions.

So when you (and others) keep repeating that the flag is based on opinions I must conclude that you either don't know how it's supposed to work or deliberately ignore it, both good reasons to exclude you. Your thread does not show any indication of Timelord2067 posing a high risk of losing money, instead it is full of hyperbole and hurt feelings. Not a good fit with the trust system.

well ok just to respond to this objection without going too much off topic, since LoyceV also had the exact same reasoning as yours:

The determination of why the flag was prompted in the first place rests on objective reality indeed (called concrete red flags, which in itself is a vague statement but anyways), my dramatic wording of it shouldn't cloud the easily provable reality that there is a repeating pattern of obsessive false accusations against the Turkish section by this amateur detective of the forum called timelord.

The "high risk" individual flag against him which then follows, as you correctly quoted, begins with "I believe" which has to make it a personal, subjective statement, a very strong one, yet subjective nevertheless.

If the flag had to contain scientific proof that Timelord2067 was a scammer, eg a definitive case where he actually swindled people, that would immediately qualify it as the stronger contractual / scammer flag. Otherwise, there would be effectively no difference between the two flag types...

So in summary you can put people to your distrust list for whatever notion you feel is appropriate, but the BTT community should know that some of your latest reasons for doing so are pretty weak suchmoon, which in Turkish legal jargon would be roughly translated as "Against the natural flow of life" often used to signify ulterior motives...

[suchmoon]

~

You're completely ignoring the following part: "This determination is based on concrete red flags which any knowledgeable & reasonable forum user should agree with". Many knowledgeable & reasonable forum users don't agree with that, as evidenced by the opposition to your flag; it is supported solely by a group of Turkish users who have repeatedly stated that they dislike Timelord due to alleged "racism", using over-the-top dramatic accusations like this:

The incessant and repetitive prejudice, insults & lies thrown indiscriminately against all the Turkish high ranking members

constant immoral and malevolent activities

His ludicrously deranged methods include stalking every high ranking Turkish member on a daily basis

everything ever done by the Turkish members is an "evidence" to a conspiracy or fraud or scam attempt or an otherwise criminal activity

undeniably hateful and racist activities by this obvious childish troll

will continue to flag users who like to persecute people based on their nationality or anthropological backgrounds

the flag is very appropriate because I'm sure a knowledgeable individual like you can find ample correlation in history between prejudice / persecution and financial crimes

People prone to irrational hateful behavior will not hesitate to exhibit that blind prejudice in monetary matters

Slander people, stealing time is a crime everywhere

such a dishonest unhinged individual cannot be trusted in any financial deal

Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5181723

I'm sorry but this is too much even for me, and usually I'm not that sensitive to forum drama. You continue to flag users for that, I'll continue to distrust you.


Your accusations against me are as pointless as is your flag against Timelord. Bring evidence of my "ulterior motives" or shut up. Preferably in another thread, enough derailing of this one.

[Vispilio]

...

I assure you, compared to what most Turkish members have been going through recently on this forum, this is like a walk in the park for you suchmoon, and even for timelord...

[HCP]

I assure you, compared to what most Turkish members have been going through recently on this forum, this is like a walk in the park for you suchmoon, and even for timelord...

I think you're missing the point... they're not arguing that you're being bullies... they're arguing that your use of flags is incorrect. Which, based on what I've seen in this thread is correct.

What are the "concrete red flags" you have seen that dealing with Timelord is likely to result in losing money? Hint: Being "racist" =/= scammer

[suchmoon]

I hope I didn't screw it up this time:

Removed:

dooglus
TECSHARE
OgNasty
Anduck
Micio
yogg
greenplastic
JayJuanGee
BitcoinPenny
mhanbostanci
bones261
Kalemder
Matthias9515
Silent26
fillippone
madnessteat
DIKUL

Added:

gmaxwell
Dabs
monkeynuts
Lydian
ezeminer
MaoChao
polymerbit
Vispilio
JollyGood
Goran_
bavicrypto
theyoungmillionaire
iasenko
tvplus006
gospodin
mole0815
TalkStar


From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5117330.msg52653822#msg52653822

111 candidates this time thus a fairly large list of removals.

[madnessteat]

The list of DT1 members includes bounty hunter gospodin. I've never seen anything like this before.  

Look at his messages.

[Blacknavy]

The list of DT1 members includes bounty hunter gospodin. I've never seen anything like this before.  

Look at his messages.

Nice to see new faces. Gospodin is the best bounty hunter I've ever seen but he is known by the community for his fairness. He is not only the best hunter but also the most active member in our section. There are a lot of topics that was created by him. Let’s give him a chance.

[Steamtyme]

The list of DT1 members includes bounty hunter gospodin. I've never seen anything like this before.  

Look at his messages.

I'm confused with what that has to do with their trustworthiness? Is there an issue with their feedback or conduct when interacting with others? If their bounties don't break forum rules, it's a non issue

[madnessteat]

The list of DT1 members includes bounty hunter gospodin. I've never seen anything like this before. 

Look at his messages.

I'm confused with what that has to do with their trustworthiness? Is there an issue with their feedback or conduct when interacting with others? If their bounties don't break forum rules, it's a non issue

Personally, I see no reason to trust such a user and adding him to the DefaultTrust looks very strange. Am I right to understand that you can trust user feedback without proof?

[LoyceV]

I hope I didn't screw it up this time:

Looks okay :)

I've added more information to your lists:

Removed:

dooglus (Trust: +14 / =1 / -0) (178 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
TECSHARE (Trust: +34 / =5 / -1) (475 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
OgNasty (Trust: +63 / =2 / -6) (723 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Anduck (Trust: +19 / =2 / -1) (55 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Micio (Trust: +8 / =0 / -0) (250 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
yogg (Trust: +22 / =0 / -0) (823 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
greenplastic (Trust: +37 / =0 / -0) (105 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
JayJuanGee (Trust: +3 / =0 / -0) (1042 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
BitcoinPenny (Trust: +34 / =0 / -0) (523 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
mhanbostanci (Trust: +3 / =0 / -0) (161 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
bones261 (Trust: +3 / =0 / -0) (704 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Kalemder (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (178 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Matthias9515 (Trust: +5 / =0 / -0) (581 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Silent26 (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (222 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
fillippone (Trust: +5 / =0 / -0) (1239 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
madnessteat (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (489 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
DIKUL (Trust: neutral) (137 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

Added:

gmaxwell (Trust: +15 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (23) 1420 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Dabs (Trust: +43 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (2) 215 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
monkeynuts (Trust: +25 / =1 / -0) (DT1! (17) 190 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Lydian (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (3) 124 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
ezeminer (Trust: +22 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (10) 95 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
MaoChao (Trust: +5 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (8) 119 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
polymerbit (Trust: +9 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (6) 236 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Vispilio (Trust: +6 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (1) 284 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
JollyGood (Trust: +14 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (1) 114 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Goran_ (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (2) 734 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
bavicrypto (Trust: +24 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (5) 125 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
theyoungmillionaire (Trust: +6 / =1 / -0) (DT1! (9) 925 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
iasenko (Trust: +4 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (14) 1216 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
tvplus006 (Trust: +7 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (1) 689 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
gospodin (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (2) 317 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
mole0815 (Trust: +3 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (0) 720 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
TalkStar (Trust: +4 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (4) 315 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

The list of DT1 members includes bounty hunter gospodin. I've never seen anything like this before.  ;D

Look at his messages.

I can't read his posts, but it doesn't look like the typical bounty spammer who only posts links to Twitter and Facebook. But he has several users who haven't left any feedback on his Trust list.