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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 84170 times)
LoyceV
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October 11, 2019, 02:42:09 PM
 #1841

@malevolent @Vispilio @gospodin @fillippone @TheNewAnon135246 @TalkStar @1miau :
See Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

It's a first version, there are probably more things I should add, so please post if I forgot stuff. But I also try to keep it "short", and it's already much longer than most users will ever read.

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fillippone
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October 11, 2019, 03:01:34 PM
 #1842

@malevolent @Vispilio @gospodin @fillippone @TheNewAnon135246 @TalkStar @1miau :
See Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

It's a first version, there are probably more things I should add, so please post if I forgot stuff. But I also try to keep it "short", and it's already much longer than most users will ever read.

Good wall of text.

commenting there my doubt.


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October 11, 2019, 09:28:34 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #1843


Good wall of text.

commenting there my doubt.



This is the granddaddy of all Trust guides, covering everything from beginner to native forum fluency Smiley,

maybe we should do it piecemeal so local users don't immediately give up on reading a novella at first sight  Wink

Great job nonetheless @LoyceV, very informative.

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October 11, 2019, 11:52:16 PM
 #1844

@malevolent @Vispilio @gospodin @fillippone @TheNewAnon135246 @TalkStar @1miau :
See Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system
Outstanding guide, it's a very good read! How long did it take you to write it?  Cheesy

But unfortunately Lafu was faster and translated your guide into German already, so I'm out for the translation.  Cry

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LoyceV
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October 12, 2019, 08:01:05 AM
 #1845

How long did it take you to write it?  Cheesy
A few hours, spread out over 2 days. That's also the reason I didn't cover Trust Flags yet: lack of time.

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October 12, 2019, 12:04:09 PM
 #1846

@malevolent @Vispilio @gospodin @fillippone @TheNewAnon135246 @TalkStar @1miau :
See Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

It's a first version, there are probably more things I should add, so please post if I forgot stuff. But I also try to keep it "short", and it's already much longer than most users will ever read.
#RESERVE
I want to translate it in Philippines local board, Thank you for wonderful guide LoyceV  Smiley

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October 13, 2019, 04:54:35 PM
 #1847

For years I've been unhappy with how DefaultTrust ended up as a centralized and largely-untouchable authority, but I was reluctant to change it because the alternatives seemed too messy. However, I've finally decided to try some changes, and we'll see how it works.

#1
As a special exception to the normal algorithm for determining a user's trust network, if you are on the default trust list ("DT1") but more other DT1 members distrust you than explicitly trust you, then it is as if you are distrusted by the default trust list for all purposes except for this very DT1-composition determination.

So if someone on DT1 is doing something stupid, you can ask other DT1 members to distrust them.

See here for live info on this "DT voting".

#2
You can view any page as if you were using the default trust settings by putting ;dt at the end of the URL. Eg. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=35;dt

#3
I will periodically (maybe every month) be reconstructing the default trust list to include everyone who matches these criteria:
 - If rank was determined solely using earned merit, then you must be of at least Member rank.
 - You must have been online sometime within the last 3 days.
 - Your trust list must include at least 10 users, not including ~distrust entries.
 - You must not be banned or manually blacklisted from selection.
 - You must have posted sometime within the last 30 days.
 - You must have at least 10 people directly trusting you each with an earned merit of at least 10, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.
 - You must have at least 2 people directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 250, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.

Unlike the previous policy, I will not generally be trying to cultivate a good list; that will be left to the DT1 members themselves. However, I reserve the right to remove you and blacklist you from future selection if you engage in egregious and obvious abuse, or if multiple known alt accounts could be selected.

Currently not that many users are eligible. If hundreds of users would be selected in the future, I plan to instead choose a random subset of about 100 eligible users each time. This DT1 reconstruction may even automatically happen on a schedule in the future, but it doesn't currently.



A major goal of this is to allow retaliatory distrusts and ratings to actually have some chance of mattering so that contentious ratings have an actual cost. If someone is obviously scamming, then any retaliatory rating should not last long due to the DT1 "voting", but if you negative-rate someone for generally disliking them, then their retaliation against you may stick. In borderline cases, it should result in something of a political battle.

This is inspired partly by something that David Friedman said once (though I can't find the quote), that one of the requirements for a peaceful society is the credible threat of retaliation in case you are harmed. As DT was organized previously, one or both sides of a dispute was usually unable to effectively retaliate to a rating, at least via the trust system itself. Now your ability to effectively retaliate will tend to increase as you become more established in the community, which should discourage abuse generally. (Or that's the idea, at least.)

All that being said, I still discourage retaliatory ratings, and with these changes I encourage people to try to "bury the hatchet" and de-escalate rather than trying to use any increased retaliatory power you now have. Also, it's best to make your own custom list, and you must do this if you want to be on DT1.

I am never completely tied to anything, but let's try this for at least a few months and see how it works.

Yet another bullshit system and I don't give a damn about it . Specially the moderators here are idiots . Coolwave was called as scammer with no scam proof . Also there is a bullshit large text about something which is not even verified. You guys are such a dumbass.

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October 17, 2019, 08:26:44 AM
Last edit: October 17, 2019, 09:17:05 AM by fillippone
 #1848

The chances of any one or more people already excluded in the first month also being excluded in the second month (when there are 104 eligible in the 1st month and 106 eligible in the next month) is:
4 * [1-(100/106)], or ~22.4%

Damn it, I simulated it, and you seem right. I suppose that my model of the situation was wrong because it actually does matter that the first month has already happened, whereas I was trying to eliminate the specificity of this.

Guys I am again on this.
I thought about this problem quite extensively during this weekend on the italian riviera.

I think Quickseller formula is not correct as it does allow repetition, while we must find a solution without repetition (if a user is selected, it cannot be taken out again on the same round).
I think Theymos was then on the right path using binomial coefficients, so I am going to use the same technique.

The right probability of any of the 4 excluded in the first round to be excluded in the second round is equal to 1 - the probability of everyone of such 4 to be selected:

1-C(100,4)/C(106,4)=0.210654248

another less intuitive method give the  same exact result:

1-C(102,6)/C(106,6)=0.210654248

(probability of being amongst the 6 excluded from the second extraction chosen by the 100 selected from the first extraction + the 2 new addition).

I am almost sure about this, but please double check me again.
Theymos said he simulated and got a result very similar to Quickseller, this scares me, also because I saw LoyceV and other heavyweight meriting previous solution... shall I go back to school?

EDIT: Forgot to mention, but clearly an hypothesis here: every candidate on the first round is a candidate also for the second round. This simplifies calculations, when we agree on the solution, we'll be able to remove this hypothesis.




Dear Lord!
This happened to me, so back to the blackboard:
This month there were 111 eligible candidates.
So the probability that any of the the excluded this month, being excluded also next month is (provided the candidate's number stay at 11):
  
1-C(100,11)/C(111,11)=0.70072

Pretty Impressive!

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November 02, 2019, 06:28:10 PM
Merited by bones261 (2)
 #1849

Theymos has just updated DT1, these are the changes:

Old:
     1. Staff HostFat (Trust: +2 / =0 / -1) (92 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     2. Donator CanaryInTheMine (Trust: +30 / =0 / -0) (42 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     3. Legendary Vod (Trust: +27 / =2 / -3) (1313 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     4. Legendary monkeynuts (Trust: +28 / =1 / -0) (190 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     5. Legendary TMAN (Trust: +28 / =1 / -1) (1056 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     6. Legendary vizique (Trust: +32 / =0 / -0) (320 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     7. Legendary willi9974 (Trust: +4 / =0 / -1) (55 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     8. Hero Member teeGUMES (Trust: +14 / =2 / -1) (336 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
     9. Copper Member LFC_Bitcoin (Trust: +7 / =0 / -0) (1223 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    10. Legendary The Pharmacist (Trust: +23 / =0 / -0) (2142 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    11. Hero Member Gunthar (Trust: +10 / =0 / -0) (94 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    12. Hero Member Ale88 (Trust: +4 / =0 / -0) (252 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    13. Hero Member Veleor (Trust: +7 / =0 / -0) (1077 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    14. Sr. Member theyoungmillionaire (Trust: +6 / =1 / -0) (957 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    15. Hero Member anonymousminer (Trust: +22 / =0 / -0) (503 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    16. Hero Member Alex_Sr (Trust: +5 / =0 / -0) (898 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)

New:
    1. Legendary dooglus (Trust: +15 / =0 / -0) (207 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    2. Legendary TECSHARE (Trust: +37 / =4 / -1) (502 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    3. Donator OgNasty (Trust: +84 / =2 / -5) (728 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    4. Legendary Anduck (Trust: +19 / =2 / -1) (55 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    5. Legendary DiamondCardz (Trust: +9 / =0 / -0) (81 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    6. Legendary Micio (Trust: +10 / =0 / -0) (250 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    7. Legendary greenplastic (Trust: +50 / =0 / -0) (105 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    8. Copper Member minerjones (Trust: +98 / =1 / -0) (896 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
    9. Legendary BitcoinPenny (Trust: +42 / =0 / -0) (542 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   10. Legendary bob123 (Trust: +1 / =1 / -0) (1320 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   11. Hero Member be.open (Trust: +0 / =2 / -1) (311 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   12. Sr. Member wolwoo (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (86 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   13. Hero Member Blacknavy (Trust: +6 / =1 / -0) (620 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   14. Sr. Member Silent26 (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (222 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   15. Hero Member fillippone (Trust: +7 / =0 / -0) (1517 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
   16. Hero Member madnessteat (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (571 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)

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November 02, 2019, 06:32:50 PM
 #1850


There are a lot of people who are on DT who have negative trust. It seems there might be a mismatch between who is on DT and who should be on DT.
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November 02, 2019, 06:44:17 PM
 #1851

~~~~~~

Thanks LoyceV for the list .

I used it for the German translation thread i have done and doing the updates there .

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November 02, 2019, 06:48:40 PM
 #1852

There are a lot of people who are on DT who have negative trust. It seems there might be a mismatch between who is on DT and who should be on DT.
Just because someone has received negative "feedback" from someone deemed trustworthy by some users doesn't mean they can't also be trustworthy to other users. This seems to me the system is working as intended and spreading out the Default trust as opposed to having it be a core group.

It should really only be used by newbies anyways as more experienced users should create their own custom trust lists.


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November 02, 2019, 06:53:26 PM
 #1853

There are a lot of people who are on DT who have negative trust. It seems there might be a mismatch between who is on DT and who should be on DT.
Just because someone has received negative "feedback" from someone deemed trustworthy by some users doesn't mean they can't also be trustworthy to other users. This seems to me the system is working as intended and spreading out the Default trust as opposed to having it be a core group.

It should really only be used by newbies anyways as more experienced users should create their own custom trust lists.
I didn't say that those who have negative trust should not be on DT. Although this may be the case some of the time.
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November 02, 2019, 07:05:38 PM
 #1854

I didn't say that those who have negative trust should not be on DT. Although this may be the case some of the time.
Okay then I don't really understand what you meant by the statement below. I do agree that sometimes there can be an issue that's why it's always good to review feedback. There is one account I'm unfamiliar with that I think may fall into that here upon further inspection. I rarely check into the DT list.

It seems there might be a mismatch between who is on DT and who should be on DT.


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November 02, 2019, 07:13:29 PM
 #1855

This seems to me the system is working as intended and spreading out the Default trust as opposed to having it be a core group.
It's not flawless though, there are for instance still 4 banned users on DT2:
DT 2
   162. 140437: DyslexicZombei Banned! (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (0 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
   349. 982157: tayfundeniz Banned! (Trust:  neutral) (46 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
   389. 1145174: Gary Levanevskii Banned! (Trust:  neutral) (127 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
   435. 1831671: ugurum15 Banned! (Trust:  neutral) (22 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

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November 02, 2019, 07:41:56 PM
 #1856

It's not flawless though, there are for instance still 4 banned users on DT2:
What system is  Tongue
I would have to go look through their feedback and what not, but it might still be valuable enough to deserve to be included within someone's trust list. If they are aware it is a banned individual though I guess as DT-1 or even a candidate they should mirror what they agree with and then remove the banned user from their list. I'm trying to be a little more open minded to the nuances of this system, up to and including making an argument for a perma-banned user to be on DT-2... kinda felt dirty just typing that. I think I came to this thought when it was apparent that some users were deserving of a second chance when a year or two ago they would have likely never received that opportunity.
Just realized Ban's still aren't visible on a profile, it really should be stated on a profile page... but that's a different topic.


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November 02, 2019, 07:47:46 PM
 #1857

I would have to go look through their feedback and what not, but it might still be valuable enough to deserve to be included within someone's trust list.
The first one has left a lot of positive feedback. The other 3 haven't left any feedback at all. Those last 3 aren't really a problem for the Trust system, but it's not helping either.

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November 02, 2019, 07:56:37 PM
Merited by Steamtyme (1)
 #1858

    5. Legendary DiamondCardz (Trust: +9 / =0 / -0) (81 Merit earned (history)) (BPIP)
I realized a couple weeks ago that I met the DT1 requirements other than for having a custom list (which I had gotten rid of despite having one before), so conjured one up to the best of my ability.

I'm not sure how long I'll be on DT1 because I'll be negating people off my trust list who I think blatantly abuse the system, and once I start doing that they'll likely negate me too which could make me drop off - but ah well, I think it's more important to make clear my thoughts on people using the trust system for things such as "I disagree with what this person says".

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November 02, 2019, 08:15:35 PM
 #1859

This seems to me the system is working as intended and spreading out the Default trust as opposed to having it be a core group.
It's not flawless though, there are for instance still 4 banned users on DT2:
Wouldn't a simple solution to this be that if you're banned you're no longer eligible for DT1 and DT2?

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November 02, 2019, 08:23:00 PM
 #1860

I would have to go look through their feedback and what not, but it might still be valuable enough to deserve to be included within someone's trust list.
The first one has left a lot of positive feedback. The other 3 haven't left any feedback at all. Those last 3 aren't really a problem for the Trust system, but it's not helping either.
Yeah I looked it over quickly I agree with you, looks like the first is an older account that was involved in group buys or something while older feedback is still relevant, there's nothing there that seems to be enough to need them on a trust list. The other three don't have any value for the system overall and if they were their based on their judgement in posting and advice, they can't do it anymore so are doing nothing, apart from potentially filling a spot on the 10 required for a personal trust list.

I was more making a general comment that there could be cases where banned doesn't mean poor judgement in regards to feedback.

I think it's more important to make clear my thoughts on people using the trust system for things such as "I disagree with what this person says".
Agreed, It's definitely best to make a list that represents your judgement rather than worrying about remaining or earning a spot on DT.

Wouldn't a simple solution to this be that if you're banned you're no longer eligible for DT1 and DT2?
Could be, then the users who agree with ratings just have to go back and duplicate the feedback they deem relevant. It would probably have to become a larger issue than it currently is before anything like that happens


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