[Lets Discuss]Custom Trust list and Pros and Cons of the system.

[r1s2g3]

In order to encourage the users to create custom list, theymos created a few criteria if satisfied by a user will become a DT1 member (unless member is excluded by majority of other DT1 member satisfying the criteria.)

#3
I will periodically (maybe every month) be reconstructing the default trust list to include everyone who matches these criteria:
 - If rank was determined solely using earned merit, then you must be of at least Member rank.
 - You must have been online sometime within the last 3 days.
 - Your trust list must include at least 10 users, not including ~distrust entries.
 - You must not be banned or manually blacklisted from selection.
 - You must have posted sometime within the last 30 days.
 - You must have at least 10 people directly trusting you each with an earned merit of at least 10, not including merit you yourself sent.
 - You must have at least 1 person directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 100, not including merit you yourself sent.   ***

*** This is going to be changed with 2 user with 250+  Merits as theymos suggested here


The custom list created will be used as DT0 for you , means these custom list will be at highest level for you.(most trusted user to you.) If you update your  trust setting with Trust Depth=0 then you will see user rating as given by the  DT0 as trusted but you will not see the DT1 and DT2 ratings.

Trust Depth can be put to the max depth of 4 but ideally you are recommended it to use it to Depth of 2.

Now why it is important to create the custom trust list?
As far DT0 is concerned, I guess there is no difference in earlier and new system. Difference can happen if you are merited user (10 or 250) then you will help that user to be dynamically promoted to DT1 and everybody will be benefited by that user judgement.

Few user suggested that not to include the user who rarely tag the others (may be they are right because if your are not tagging and not giving any rating then you are not affecting anyone) but I guess we can currently include them for a time being because they might not be tagging because they think their untrusted feedback will not be having no weight.


What this system will eventually bring?
1. A custom trust list and dynamically changing DT1 list .
2. Chance for a very new users to become a DT1 if user is contributing and rational in judgement.
3.Active DT1 users as it does not allow somebody in DT1 if somebody not online in last 3 day.
4. Much more number of user included in DT1 (so I guess number of DT2 will also considerably increase) so if you need DT then DT support will be ready available.

What will be catch with the system?
1. Dynamically losing your DT1 status if you are not online in last 3 day(whenever a new list list created). But I guess if that user in other DT1 list then it will act as DT2 and tag remain valid if all of the user using recommended setting of trust depth of 2.
2.Very heavily dependent on Merit System, might cause/encourage trading of the Merits.
3. Might cause people obtaining solicitation from  highly Merited user. (trying to game the system)
Edit1.
4. Current trust system is also not solving the "Lemon Problem" that was existing in previous trust system.

Please feel free to debate,add the Pros and cons of this new system. I guess theymos is currently very open to suggestion on trust system and might add/remove some point if you concern sounds valid.

PS: Please come with your general suggestion, do not target any specific user and individual.
      I want to keep this self moderated but look like you are not allowed to start a self-moderated thread in Meta(at least I am not allowed).
    

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[S_Therapist]

I just don't get one thing. Yesterday mday and today you are saying that it is recommended to set Depth 2. Where it has been recommended? Am I missing something?
We see depth level set to 2 because it's by default setting. That doesn't mean it is recommended. You should utilize it in that way by which you feel comfort.
Sorry if I'm missing something.

[suchmoon]

I just don't get one thing. Yesterday mday and today you are saying that it is recommended to set Depth 2. Where it has been recommended? Am I missing something?
We see depth level set to 2 because it's by default setting. That doesn't mean it is recommended. You should utilize it in that way by which you feel comfort.
Sorry if I'm missing something.

I agree, I don't think it's officially recommended anywhere.

Personally I would highly recommend using depth 0 or 1 if you use a custom list. Depth 2 is too broad. It's ok-ish if you use DefaultTrust because then:

DefaultTrust = level 0
DT1 = level 1
DT2 = level 2

Otherwise:

Your custom list = level 0
(optional) Users trusted by your custom list = level 1
... and if you add level 2 here I think you'll be worse off than using DefaultTrust. For example you put a few DT1 users into your custom list. That's your level 0. If you set your depth to 1 you add one level to it so you essentially have a subset of DT1 and DT2. But if you set depth to 2 then you'll end up with a large number of DT3-equivalent users in your hierarchy.

[r1s2g3]

Personally I would highly recommend using depth 0 or 1 if you use a custom list. Depth 2 is too broad. It's ok-ish if you use DefaultTrust because then:

DefaultTrust = level 0
DT1 = level 1
DT2 = level 2

Otherwise:

Your custom list = level 0
(optional) Users trusted by your custom list = level 1
... and if you add level 2 here I think you'll be worse off than using DefaultTrust. For example you put a few DT1 users into your custom list. That's your level 0. If you set your depth to 1 you add one level to it so you essentially have a subset of DT1 and DT2. But if you set depth to 2 then you'll end up with a large number of DT3-equivalent users in your hierarchy.

I got you  but how I will overcome the below limitation

1. Dynamically losing your DT1 status if you are not online in last 3 day(whenever a new list list created). But I guess if that user in other DT1 list then it will act as DT2 and tag remain valid if all of the user using recommended setting of trust depth of 2.

Since I am not keeping everyone in my custom list (If you keep everyone in custom list then better to take forum DT1 and DT2) and DT1 inactivity can also cause to lose the status, so I like that user to be appearing as DT2 if that user is trusted by other DT1.

A scammer need to be tag by more than one DT1 in this system , if I keep myself at level 1. A slight inactivity will cause you lose DT1 status.

PS: Sorry, look like custom is overriding the forum trust list, I thought it will be in addition to the forum one I guess we should be get forum list with additional to custom list. otherwise current DT system will also become static.

 

[suchmoon]

Since I am not keeping everyone in my custom list (If you keep everyone in custom list then better to take forum DT1 and DT2) and DT1 inactivity can also cause to lose the status, so I like that user to be appearing as DT2 if that user is trusted by other DT1.

A scammer need to be tag by more than one DT1 in this system , if I keep myself at level 1. A slight inactivity will cause you lose DT1 status.

PS: Sorry, look like custom is overriding the forum trust list, I thought it will be in addition to the forum one I guess we should be get forum list with additional to custom list. otherwise current DT system will also become static.

I think you might be misunderstanding something. You're always implicitly in your own DT0. And your custom list affects only how you see the ratings (red/green/trusted/untrusted) plus it is your vote for DT1 members. Of course if you're in DT1 yourself then your custom list also becomes DT2 level under you. But your own level 0/1/2/etc is not subject to inactivity rules if that's what you're saying.

And DT1/DT2 matters only to those users who use DefaultTrust. As long as you drop DefaultTrust from your list you're no longer using DT1/DT2 except to the extent that your list is a vote.

[r1s2g3]

Since I am not keeping everyone in my custom list (If you keep everyone in custom list then better to take forum DT1 and DT2) and DT1 inactivity can also cause to lose the status, so I like that user to be appearing as DT2 if that user is trusted by other DT1.

A scammer need to be tag by more than one DT1 in this system , if I keep myself at level 1. A slight inactivity will cause you lose DT1 status.

PS: Sorry, look like custom is overriding the forum trust list, I thought it will be in addition to the forum one I guess we should be get forum list with additional to custom list. otherwise current DT system will also become static.

I think you might be misunderstanding something. You're always implicitly in your own DT0. And your custom list affects only how you see the ratings (red/green/trusted/untrusted) plus it is your vote for DT1 members. Of course if you're in DT1 yourself then your custom list also becomes DT2 level under you. But your own level 0/1/2/etc is not subject to inactivity rules if that's what you're saying.

And DT1/DT2 matters only to those users who use DefaultTrust. As long as you drop DefaultTrust from your list you're no longer using DT1/DT2 except to the extent that your list is a vote.

I will further research it but after creating custom trust list , Quickseller rating changed to -4 for me, without list it was -1010 for me.
I remember earlier I added some user in my custom list then I used to see rating of other as ( custom list user + DT1 +DT2 as I set my trust depth to 2)
Now it look like custom list instead of appending with forum list is just overriding the forum default trust.
I am interested in appending system so that I can add few that I want to trust in additional to other. Look like current system is adding overhead to add so many users.

[suchmoon]

Now it look like custom list instead of appending with forum list is just overriding the forum default trust.
I am interested in appending system so that I can add few that I want to trust in additional to other. Look like current system is adding overhead to add so many users.

You can append if you do this:

Code:

DefaultTrust
included_user1
included_user2
~excluded_user1
~excluded_user2

However this screws up depth somewhat. You probably want depth 2 with DefaultTrust so that you can see DT1 and DT2 green/red ratings. But depth 2 will also make you see 3 levels (0, 1, 2) for included_user1 and included_user2, which might be not what you want.

Alternatively, don't use DefaultTrust and do a full custom list. I think that's what you're were worried as becoming "static". But you can always review it at the beginning of each month when DT1 is regenerated. You'd have to do it even if you used DefaultTrust as above because regeneration might have dropped users you want to include and vice versa. So might as well just do full custom.

[cryptohunter]

If these 3 are still on DT1 in 2 weeks it is not working

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1764757.0

That's all long ago, resolved, and irrelevant as it has been proven to not be true. Read more. Post less.  

really now? just undercover i hear?

No... This is the "extorted" users explanation, so what is done is done....

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1764757.msg17629087#msg17629087

hmm  reading the thread does not seem everyone is convinced does it. Many say you forced him to say that because you had doxed him already.

Now for the undeniable FACTS BIT

how about this one

biggest proven captive instamined scam ever on this board even evan offers airdrop to make up for it......

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=560138.msg7535561#msg7535561

lauda after ages of pumping it and protecting it then claims he was there and there at there was no instamine - scamming turd

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=560138.msg6748208#msg6748208


owlcatz explain your red trust because it links to my page posting facts? are you trying to silence me relating facts about lauda and lying to protect and pump scams in the past because it looks like you are and so is that imbecile TMAN

Well i say it looks like you are..... you actually are. that is not just red trust abuse that actually silencing scam hunters revealing scams and scammers histories. So basically you are totally reversing the intended use of red trust ... your previous collusion on the under cover sting LOL seems to be happening again.

Explain yourself now.

Suchmoon is aware of this but is trying to shut me up about it too. He red trusts people for supporting scams or pumping them he says these supporters are scammers for doing it  and need red trust. Now suchmoon is a scammer by his own definition for protecting lauda and putting him on DT even though he has evidence that lauda is pumping this scam and denying the captive instamine scam.

Suchmoon is now a proven scammer by his own definition and all of them need to be removed at once and blacklisted.

Bring forth a factual argument why they should all not be removed right now.

Also any DT reading this and not booting them out of trust is complicit and needs removing and blacklisting.

Can we have DT that understand that scammers and scam protectors and liars are the bad guys. I think that could be a good start.

[r1s2g3]

Now it look like custom list instead of appending with forum list is just overriding the forum default trust.
I am interested in appending system so that I can add few that I want to trust in additional to other. Look like current system is adding overhead to add so many users.

You can append if you do this:

Code:

DefaultTrust
included_user1
included_user2
~excluded_user1
~excluded_user2

However this screws up depth somewhat. You probably want depth 2 with DefaultTrust so that you can see DT1 and DT2 green/red ratings. But depth 2 will also make you see 3 levels (0, 1, 2) for included_user1 and included_user2, which might be not what you want.

Alternatively, don't use DefaultTrust and do a full custom list. I think that's what you're were worried as becoming "static". But you can always review it at the beginning of each month when DT1 is regenerated. You'd have to do it even if you used DefaultTrust as above because regeneration might have dropped users you want to include and vice versa. So might as well just do full custom.

Looks like it got fixed now, thanks.
But I am more interested in cons of system specifically about point 2 and 3. Does not it look like it is becoming easier to game the system ?

[suchmoon]

Looks like it got fixed now, thanks.
But I am more interested in cons of system specifically about point 2 and 3. Does not it look like it is becoming easier to game the system ?

I don't know if it's easier. We'll see when the list is recreated. Keep in mind that merits alone are not enough. There are exclusions as well.

So far everyone is looking at each others trust list. For example in DT1 zazarb and krogo were excluded almost immediately when users noticed their unusually bloated trust lists. DT2 is also being scrutinized. I guess at some point later on when we become more complacent it might be possible for someone to sneak in. So perhaps users such as yourself who are concerned about it should set up a calendar reminder for themselves to check DT1 every month.

The other effect of this system is that DT overall may become less important as more users learn to set up their own lists. This can be a good thing or a bad thing. Less incentive for crooks to get into DT perhaps. But maybe more opportunities to scam, e.g. by tricking users into setting up bad lists or fishing for users who have poorly maintained lists? Not sure where this will lead.

[TMAN]

The other effect of this system is that DT overall may become less important as more users learn to set up their own lists.

This - we need to encourage and help anyone who comes into meta asking about DT and trustlists, maybe someone could do a decent info-graphic that we can post on threads asking about it all

actually, Ill do a 20 Merit bounty for a decent coherent info-graphic detailing DT and another 20 for one about custom trust lists.

[LoyceV]

This - we need to encourage and help anyone who comes into meta asking about DT and trustlists, maybe someone could do a decent info-graphic that we can post on threads asking about it all

I was thinking the same thing: we need an info-graph that explains the difference between "leaving feedback" and "adding someone to your trust list".