The Decline and Fall of the European Union

[Naida_BR]

Greece is to be blamed for its bureaucratic model but the money that was spent in Greece wasn't at the same rate as the growth that Greece is giving to the Eurozone indirectly.

Greece became a cheap place for businesses and many Greeks scientists have left the country and now they work around Central Europe, giving money to companies that operating in the European Union and eventually contributing to the GDP of EU. Mistakes occurred from both sides but before blaming, better see the whole picture.

If Greece is to be blamed why the European citizens should pay? when you say "the growth that Greece is giving to the Eurozone indirectly." what are you talking about

EU sells military equipment to Greece in order to keep the Union safe from Turkey. Greece has a high Defence Budget (one of the highest in the EU) even if it is a small country and with unstable economic growth.
If EU was so supportive and injecting money to Greece, wouldn't it be smarter to cut their spendings and substitute them with Union ones?

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[Autumn_Rain]

Well, Brexit failed and I don't think the EU is going to its decline in the nearest future. The countries are tightly interrelated and dependent on each other now. That's a great risk for anyone to quit on this stage.

[darewaller]

It is not the fall of European union just because monetary system is crumbling. It is also a problem that migration created a trouble among these places, just because one country allows migrants doesn't mean other should and that creates a tension between countries, one country has a lot of debt while the other has a surplus is also a problem as well.

I mean Germany has been seen a bad country just because they are making a profit while others are losing money, that is not German problem that is other countries problem but unfortunately the countries with debt like Greece see Germany has a new reach system or whatever. Hence, it is a political problem as much as a economical problem, if the countries that create these problems were ruled more efficiently and better than there wouldn't be these troubles.

Look at Scandinavian countries, they have almost exactly the same issues as almost all Europe but they are not seen bad, many leftists use them as example, why ? Because, even though they have the same trouble as the other countries, they do not meddle with other countries, they are always going along good with others. Have you ever heard Sweden, Norway or Denmark to ever have a beef with any country ? No.

Do they have zero problems ? Of course not. That means the trouble lies with not countries inside but their actions against each other.

[Hydrogen]

I'll try to outline the european union's current status quo. Would be curious to know whether people agree or disagree with my portrayal.

Imagine that greece is represented by a ship. The ship that is greece strikes an iceberg which damages its economy, it begins to sink. Another ship known as great britain lashes itself to greece to temporarily prevent greece from sinking into economic depression. This presents a form of temporary relief and economic stability for greece but the underlying problems go unaddressed and unresolved.

Over the long term, is it inevitable that the ship known as greece will sink and drag the ship known as great britain into the cthulhu infested abyss with it?

That is my question and my main concern with the european union. Can it be relied upon to fix real issues and address economic concerns. Or is its economic relief destined to remain formatted around a series of bailouts where wealthier and more stable nations constantly sacrifice their wealth and prosperity to bailout economically poorer and more unstable regions. There may be a subtle difference between solving problems and merely throwing money at problems. Being trillions in debt both the EU and USA cannot continue the way they've been going ad infinitum.

The european union is somewhat similar to the $400B trade deficit the united states has with china. Wealth is generally moving in one direction. While this can be sustained for a time, there is nothing that says it has particularly positive long term implications.

[yugo23]

Saying it's because of the currency is not only false, it's also stupid.

EU has dozens of problems:
-no common external policy
-no immigration policy
-no common taxation
-no common laws in general
-no common army
-no common executive
-no democratical system

Currency is just A PART of the problem.
Not the smallest one but still.

[bajingluncat]

for now, the news about the economic crisis in the European Union was so warm, even earlier this morning there was news that Britain declared an exit from the European Union, and the news immediately sent negative sentiment towards the stock market, but I feel fortunate that the news has not affected much on the price of bitcoin, according to predictions January should be a green market for investment because early in the year many people spent year-end funds for investment.
listening to the news of the crisis in the European Union, it might be the impact of fiat money weaknesses, and too much third party interference that is not transparent in terms of debt and many fishing in turbid water. But if the blockchain system is implemented it might reduce current problem

[xWolfx]

Saying it's because of the currency is not only false, it's also stupid.

EU has dozens of problems:
-no common external policy
-no immigration policy
-no common taxation
-no common laws in general
-no common army
-no common executive
-no democratical system

Currency is just A PART of the problem.
Not the smallest one but still.

This is truth, but also agreeing with you i must add that i don't believe the fall of the European Union will happen really soon even with all of those problems. Some countries will still support them unless they are pushed to leave too.

It's truth also that the lack of quick solutions doomed their once very impressive organization. I remember something i heard in a documentary before: "Politics is a wheel that spins really slow, you can only try to make it quicker".

[stompix]

Imagine that greece is represented by a ship. The ship that is greece strikes an iceberg which damages its economy, it begins to sink. Another ship known as great britain lashes itself to greece to temporarily prevent greece from sinking into economic depression.Over the long term, is it inevitable that the ship known as greece will sink and drag the ship known as great britain into the cthulhu infested abyss with it?

Greece collided with an Iceberg every historical period from the iceage  They are the ones that invented bankruptcy !!!

A lot of countries have faced recession, a lot have gone bankrupt, a lot has been destroyed for centuries and look at them...they are sailing..
From your analogy we can draw only one conclusion, never help anybody cause they are going to die no matter what you anyway.

This presents a form of temporary relief and economic stability for greece but the underlying problems go unaddressed and unresolved.

And what are those problems and what is the solution for them?

But if the blockchain system is implemented it might reduce current problem

Yeah, the blockchain, the magic pill that will save us all when the rapture comes!

[Pab]

Many forces stop want EU to nox exist anymore
There are radical left and radical right movements
But EU has to exist from one cardinal reason
There was not war in EU area all that time when EU exist
Memories about WW2 are still alive and people in Europe don't want that happen again

[Wilhelm]

Saying it's because of the currency is not only false, it's also stupid.

EU has dozens of problems:
-no common external policy
-no immigration policy
-no common taxation
-no common laws in general
-no common army
-no common executive
-no democratical system

Currency is just A PART of the problem.
Not the smallest one but still.

It seems that you have no idea or just hate the EU
OK I did a google and looked at the first hits

Immigration policy : http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/152/immigration-policy

Tax policy : https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/taxation_en
True that tax is based on the local government. The local goverment pays the EU. It's just a different system.
In US you have state and federal taxes which is basically the same system except that the EU has simplified the system.

Common legislation : https://eur-lex.europa.eu/browse/summaries.html

Common Army : No common army but our armies work together very well. This means all EU countries can work individually or as a team.

Common Executive : Nope we don't have an autocrat at the top. We have representatives in a european parlement.

EU is a democracy of democracies.

etc....

[aad140386]

In spite of everything, the European Union continues to exist. Any state has its own problems and shortcomings. And in the union of their countres even more. I do not live in the European Union and it is difficult for me to be objective in this matter, but it seems to me that the main problem within the EU is a migrant and bureaucratic machine that is unable to respond quickly to real people's problems. Many problems are trying to hush up, and this is very bad, because it causes people even more discontent. I also dare to suggest that the difference in the standard of living in different countries can also be the basis for conflicts. But, I repeat, the EU continues to exist, and I think it will exist for a long time.

[Hydrogen]

This presents a form of temporary relief and economic stability for greece but the underlying problems go unaddressed and unresolved.

And what are those problems and what is the solution for them?

....

The european union faces the same problems nearly every other nation around the globe faces atm. Taxes are too high. The majority of tax revenues are allocated towards wealth redistribution programs which make the rich richer and the poor poorer. This is very obvious in the USA where we have trillions allocated towards defense contractors like lockheed martin whose largest controlling shareholders are wallstreet one percenters. The same form of wealth redistribution happens in countries like greece, even if its not as noticeable.

Well to compensate for the US government allocating more than $1 trillion to wallstreet owned defense contractors like lockheed martin they say the solution is taxes need to be raised higher. Of course, raising taxes never fixes anything--it simply means the government has more money to spend on wars in the middle east and assorted programs which benefit the wealthy and elitist special interest groups. This enables a vicious cycle of state sanctioned wealth and wage inequality.

In addition to that, high taxes have an intrinsic negative effect on economic growth and prosperity. China is a prime example of this they have adopted policies of deregulation which spurred decent levels of economic growth and prosperity. It might be fair to say Donald Trump spurred economic growth in the US by cutting taxes and making america a more attractive investment and country to conduct business. This may be the example countries like greece should follow. Tax cuts and deregulation to strengthen the economy. With an emphasis on the state allocating less revenue towards special interest one percenter programs with a greater emphasis on the common good.

There's nothing really noteworthy or special about improvements that might be made, its only the basics. The issue is most don't know what the basics are?

[CoinEraser]

-snip-
Memories about WW2 are still alive and people in Europe don't want that happen again

That's true! I myself live in a country of the eu and can only confirm that. WW2 was terrible for the people and no one wants something like that to happen again. I still remember the horrible experiences of my grandparents. They told me a lot about what they went through in the war and I don't want to experience that personally. That alone is why many people want to hold on to the EU and believe in it. Even if the EU is not perfect and there are many problems, it is still better than a new war in europe.

[Tylev]

Many forces stop want EU to nox exist anymore
There are radical left and radical right movements
But EU has to exist from one cardinal reason
There was not war in EU area all that time when EU exist
Memories about WW2 are still alive and people in Europe don't want that happen again

We can criticize the European Union. It really had and will have its own internal problems, because in our world there is nothing perfect. However, such an alliance on the scale of 28 states is already a great achievement of mankind, which should be cherished and protected. In my opinion, there have never been cases in the history of mankind that such a number of independent states pursued a common financial policy.
If Britain wants, let it leave this union. Membership here is voluntary. This is the only way to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of such an alliance. In any case, such associations of states should be encouraged. With such alliances, there will be much less conflict in the world.

[poptok1]

European Union is a communistic super-state and it must be destroyed!

To first see the true initiative that shaped the idea of a United Europe, we have to look at the man behind it all, Altiero Spinelli.
Spinelli, a communist even during Mussolini’s government, was one of the most influential people who formed the EU. He was a member of the European Commission for 6 years, from 1970-1976 (he left voluntarily), as well as a member of the European Parliament for seven years after. A strong supporter of Trotsky, his views were so radical that the Italian Communist Party threw him out.
Trotskyism is a subset-ideology of Marxism-Leninism that proposes a permanent communist revolution in all countries, not only ones that the Trotskyists take control of. This shows how dangerous Spinelli’s ideas were, even towards non-Europeans.
One may ask about his views for European unity, but he simply goes much too far with it. Spinelli called for European federalism, which would make all European countries into one and diminish the importance of nationhood.
In order to understand what European Union actually is one have to read it's ideological foundation, that is Ventotene manifesto by Spinelli.

Few quotes from said manifesto, that is an official EU document:

Private property must be abolished, limited

private ownership of the material means of production must, as a general rule, be abolished

definitive abolition of division of Europe into national, sovereign States

the European revolution must be socialist

Pure evil!

EU is a democracy of democracies.

No it is not! Because nobody is electing those who invent the laws, the EU commission.  

[alyssa85]

Well, Brexit failed and I don't think the EU is going to its decline in the nearest future. The countries are tightly interrelated and dependent on each other now. That's a great risk for anyone to quit on this stage.

Brexit hasn't failed - they negotiating a deal as we speak and it's likely it will get agreed by parliament next week.

Britain is the least integrated of the European countries - exports to the EU were 66% of the total in the year 2000 but had dropped to 44% in the year 2016 (the year of the referendum). Britain has been decoupling from the EU for two decades.

[Brunus]

The problem is that Europe has tried to unite people who - in terms of culture, language, traditions and economic power are too different.
And eventually it turned into a super Germany and all the other countries in her service.
Needless to say, it will not last.

[Leyss]

Even if Great Britain leaves the European Union, I do not think that this will significantly affect the deterioration of the position of the European Union itself. Any association of states in the economic and financial sphere, and even more so the union of about three dozen states, sharply reduces the possibility of conflicts in this region, and even more so the emergence of any kind of military tension. Therefore, any such alliances of states should be welcomed.
Of course, labor conflicts of interest will appear regularly in such an alliance. Even in a unitary state, conflicts of interests of individual administrative units in this state are not complete. We need to learn to live in peace, and not to constantly fight each other.

[stompix]

Many forces stop want EU to nox exist anymore
There are radical left and radical right movements
But EU has to exist from one cardinal reason
There was not war in EU area all that time when EU exist
Memories about WW2 are still alive and people in Europe don't want that happen again

70 years of peace in the EU.
This between countries that were at war for centuries and even before these same countries were even born the people living in those territories were at war. A bloody history is nearly coming to an end and people still think is bad.

The EU is a nightmare for every other great power.
Russia is scared as shit of such a Union, in their entire history, they haven't been able to win a war against a coalition from Europe without help from the same space, they can't even to dare to think of a war, be it traditional or economical with a union 4 times as big in population and 10x bigger in economy terms.
The US is also in the same position, China thinks the same, a fractured Europe is the best thing they can dream of.

.Britain is the least integrated of the European countries - exports to the EU were 66% of the total in the year 2000 but had dropped to 44% in the year 2016 (the year of the referendum). Britain has been decoupling from the EU for two decades.

Yeah, it's the least integrated but not because of those.
Imagine driving from NY to Washington and in Wilmington, you have to change lines and drive on the other side of the road. 

[leavolnhals]

I don't think the European Union will easily collapse when there are too many powers. Although the UK has left the EU, there are still the United States, France, Italy, ... countries with very developed services and relatively high GDP.
Even if there are many FUDs about this association, I still believe that they will not easily collapse. The EU actually creates important bridges in trade between countries.