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Author Topic: Discussion about acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Community values. DT  (Read 2241 times)
xtraelv
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January 19, 2019, 02:51:24 AM
Merited by bones261 (2), xandry (1), LoyceV (1), nutildah (1), bL4nkcode (1), taikuri13 (1)
 #1

I notice there are a few issues that appear to be arising.  Trust farming and political feuds appear to be the main current issues.

Personally I was quite satisfied with the previous system of DTs. There were a number of them that were obliging tagging scammers and from what I saw it was as much a curse as a privilege to be on the list. (Each DT has their own "fan club".

One of the things I think is important is to create a list of community values. Values that deserve negative trust. Values that deserve trust list inclusion. Values that deserve positive trust.

I've included a couple of posts I made that have already covered some of that already  in other threads. (Quoted below)

Unacceptable behavior that will result in a red tag:

Attempted or successful fraud or theft.
Business activity that resulted in the loss of funds by others.
Account sales
Merit sales / swapping
Harassing a DT
Offering escrow without a track record
Asking for a no collateral loan
Shilling / advertising MLM or ponzi
Escrowing for themselves
Late loan repayments / loan defaults.

I'd like to make a comprehensive list of unacceptable behavior and discuss some of the subjective issues. This will provide an indication of community values and direction for people wanting to avoid getting into trouble.



A major goal of this is to allow retaliatory distrusts and ratings to actually have some chance of mattering so that contentious ratings have an actual cost. If someone is obviously scamming, then any retaliatory rating should not last long due to the DT1 "voting", but if you negative-rate someone for generally disliking them, then their retaliation against you may stick. In borderline cases, it should result in something of a political battle.

This is inspired partly by something that David Friedman said once (though I can't find the quote), that one of the requirements for a peaceful society is the credible threat of retaliation in case you are harmed. As DT was organized previously, one or both sides of a dispute was usually unable to effectively retaliate to a rating, at least via the trust system itself. Now your ability to effectively retaliate will tend to increase as you become more established in the community, which should discourage abuse generally. (Or that's the idea, at least.)

All that being said, I still discourage retaliatory ratings, and with these changes I encourage people to try to "bury the hatchet" and de-escalate rather than trying to use any increased retaliatory power you now have. Also, it's best to make your own custom list, and you must do this if you want to be on DT1.

I am never completely tied to anything, but let's try this for at least a few months and see how it works.

I feel that we are all part of Theymos "ant-farm " experiment.

The unfortunate part of the trust system is that it holds political and potential scam power.

For this reason I think it would be good to create a list of values that the majority on the DT list would like to maintain.

It is interesting that while the list was created as a trust list it appears that distrust is more important.

One of the things that I would like to alert people to is the danger of removing some of the old DTs from the list.

For instance when Lauda was removed from the old list there were numerous scammers that suddenly were untagged. This worried me.

Having a charter of what is acceptable and what is unacceptable will bring both discussion and some agreement.

I feel the idea of the new DT system is to have more eyes and ears out there fighting scams.


Before giving RED TRUST to anyone i think DT members obviously investigate properly.but my question is isn't it alarming when we see someone have 1000 merits but got red trust. This kind of profile spoils our forum fame.

Not really. For a start a lot of legendary accounts already have 1000 merit automatically from the merit that was provided to them automatically when the merit system was introduced.  Merit is for post quality and not for trust.

I have merited some users with negative trust because their post was good - sometimes their post was brilliant and very useful.

Trust is based on opinion - so the person placing it feels there is a reason to warn others.

I use a modified trust list to include people I know and trust and exclude people I don't trust.

Negative trust does not necessarily mean that the person is a "written off" in all aspects. This is why it is really important to place a reference link and clear explanation why the rating has been given. (Same applies for positive trust)

Anyone can provide trust or negative trust and people on the DT list is not directly controlled by the forum. They are "independent agents".

Some scams are clearly defined while others are more subjective. For instance - if a business fails due to no illegal activity of the member. Is it a scam because people lost funds - or is it not a scam because no illegal activity was involved ?

Things that can get people negative trust from a DT are:
Attempted or successful fraud or theft.
Business activity that resulted in the loss of funds by others.
Account sales
Merit sales / swapping
Harassing a DT
Offering escrow without a track record
Asking for a no collateral loan
Shilling / advertising MLM or ponzi
Escrowing for themselves
Late loan repayments / loan defaults.
Any other untrustworthy or illegal behavior.

Saying "I don't trust you" is subjective. It doesn't mean there has been a judicial process that has found the person to be guilty of a crime.

Sometimes minor dishonesty is a sign of more less obvious stuff. Like Al Capone who was convicted on tax evasion.

Also just because a person has done something in the past (history is something that we rely on to identify patterns of behavior) it doesn't mean that they will repeat their mistake or haven't reformed.  

Some historical scams and failures have also been very good learning processes for the Crypto community.
Some of it resulted in Terms like:
"To get Goxed" Definition: To suffer from mt. gox’s technical glitches; to get screwed over by mt. gox; to lose all your money in a speculative investment .
"To take a Big Vern holiday" Definition: To disappear like Paul Vernon - the owner and CEO of the now defunct Cryptsy who "vanished" like the exchange funds. (Also referred to as an "exit scam".
"To receive a (Butterfly Labs) BFL upgrade" Definition: To receive something substandard much later than promised.
"To buy a Yesminer" Definition: To pay for something and never receive it.

There was a thread about why scams are not moderated and it has good reasons:

What is a scam and who decides it is a scam ?

Some scams are obvious but others are not. Once you start moderating scams it can quickly become extremely complex.

Some people call bitcoin a scam. Some people call bcash a scam - some people call it bitcoin cash.

Some people call Ripple a scam. Where do you draw the line ?

Cloud-mining contracts ? Short term mining contracts ? HYIP ? Pump and dump groups ? Crypto exchanges ? Tax collectors ?

The trust system - while not perfect - works fine in identifying and warning people of potential issues and scams.

The reality is that people need to educate themselves on how to spot scams, keep their crypto safe, use escrow and do their own research.


If Theymos wanted to, he could come up with a list of things that are and aren't acceptable.  It might not be easy, and it might not please everyone, but he could do it instead of doing nothing.  I mean, that's what laws are--they're written rules describing behavior that isn't acceptable.  Lawmakers don't throw up their hands at the complexity of the legal system and decide to not prohibit certain things as a result.

Once you start censorship it opens up a whole new can of worms.

If you censor some scams but not others it can provide a false sense of security.

Banning copy-pasting is not censoring because they have nothing unique to say.

It is also a matter of "proof" and "liability". Copy-pasting when caught is fairly clear cut.

Once you start censoring scams you are accepting some sort of responsibility for the safety of the users.

The whole bitcoin thing came from the Cypherpunk movement - which tends to have a free speech and libertarian viewpoint on life.

Once you start censoring it very quickly turns into over-reach.

The reality is that most users that get banned probably re-incarnate as another account anyway.

A known & tagged scammer is better than an unknown & untagged scammer.

Lawmakers often over-reach. The powers they give their "henchmen" often affect ordinary citizens. (I'm not only talking of developed democratic countries)

To make something illegal - lawmakers only have to declare it to be illegal. Lawmakers only pursue "crime" if it is in their self interest.


The average CEO salary is more than 531 times that of the average hourly worker.
Politicians get a regular pay rise  -but for other Government workers it is "not affordable".
Some wealthy executives pay less tax than a laborer.
Some drugs with minimal risk are illegal - while other drugs with high risks can be prescribed by your doctor.
Euthanasia, and suicide are illegal in most countries - but the death penalty or "shooting by police" is not illegal in some of those countries.
Some large corporations pay no taxes without breaking the law.
Some legal action can leave an innocent person broke.


We are surrounded by legends on this forum. Phenomenal successes and catastrophic failures. Then there are the scams. This forum is a digital museum.  
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xtraelv
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January 19, 2019, 02:51:46 AM
Last edit: January 20, 2019, 11:19:18 PM by xtraelv
Merited by Xal0lex (4), DdmrDdmr (3), vapourminer (2), xandry (2), chimk (2), Alex_Sr (2), theyoungmillionaire (2), LoyceV (1), marlboroza (1), taikuri13 (1), madnessteat (1)
 #2

RESERVED


Unacceptable behavior that will result in a red tag:

Attempted or successful fraud or theft.
Account sales / purchase / taking an account as collateral
Merit sales / swapping / Sending trust/merit between your alt accounts
Offering escrow without a track record
Providing fake or insufficient collateral. (When misleading)
Shilling / advertising MLM or ponzi
Escrowing for themselves
Late loan repayments / loan defaults.
Enrolling multiple accounts into signature/bounty campaigns
Lending or borrowing to gain "reputation"
Committing fraud by selling bank details or other sensitive data.
Inherently risky business practices - PayPal and other reversible payments, discouraging escrow use, autobuy sites, locked sales threads etc.
Impersonation of any kind (although this probably falls under outright fraud)
Fake ICOs and other projects - fake teams, plagiarized whitepapers, etc
Any ponzi-related behavior.
Any behavior that involves an involuntary monetary transfer.
Shilling scams.
Using an alt account to abuse bounties/giveaways.
Selling gambling scripts or any "strategy" in a statistically -ev game.
Fake translations.
Hacked account.
Spreading malware
Constant begging
Unrealistic loan applications

Unacceptable conduct that is directly against the forum rules:
Plagiarism. * Should be reported to admin for permaban
Ban evasion.  * Should be reported to admin for permaban

Unacceptable behavior that could result in a red tag:

These items are subjective and require some community discussion.

Extreme harassment *Subjective
Business activity that resulted in the loss of funds by others. *Subjective
Asking for a no collateral loan *Subjective This should only apply if the user has little reputation/is asking for an amount that is way too unreasonable for what reputation they have.
ANN bumping, which is negative to the forum.
Loan defaults (only if unpaid for an unreasonable amount of time)
Colluding *subjective
Leaving fake negative ratings*subjective

Considerations:
Before leaving feedback, ask yourself if your feedback makes the forum better, and (if applicable) is it worth destroying someone's reputation?

Should not be tagged:

Criticizing others.
Posting an unpopular opinion.
Leaving an unsubstantiated negative rating, if the user is not shady outside of this.
Promoting altcoins.
Using an alt account.
religious statements*subjective
Anything without solid evidence or very strong circumstantial evidence*


Source: xtraelv AverageGlabella suchmoon actmyname DarkStar_ lauda
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January 19, 2019, 02:57:47 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1), xtraelv (1)
 #3

I was going to attempt something like this but got put off by the fact that other people thought it would be a waste of time and no one would really take in the information anyway. But some good pointers are;

1. Enrolling multiple accounts into signature/bounty campaigns

2. Accepting Bitcointalk accounts as collateral

3. Commiting fraud by selling bank details or other sensitive data.

4. Lending money to gain "reputation"

5. Sending trust/merit between your alt accounts

In fact you could probably shorten most of the multiple accounts by just saying the only reason to have an alt account would be to post opinions that you don't want associated with your main username and any business accounts such as a gambling site etc.

Regarding account sales there's some interest discussion over at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098927.msg49306702#msg49306702 which outlines the fact that account sales wasn't always red tag worthy or considered untrustworthy but it was discouraged.

Advertising is a tricky situation because you would like to think that everyone does their research on the service they are advertising which couldn't be further from the truth but any clear ponzi or scamming schemes should result in a red trust but if the service isn't black and white benefit of the doubt must be applied and evaluated on a case by case basis.

No collateral is also subjective when it comes to offering collateral lower than the requested amount. If asking for a loan with no collateral is tag worthy then surely asking for a loan with less than equal value collateral is tag worthy too? A lot of people on the forum are too quick to make their mark when dealing with no collateral but then ignore the ones which are offering low value/quality collateral. its the same principle really.

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January 19, 2019, 03:04:39 AM
Merited by xtraelv (1)
 #4

  • Inherently risky business practices - PayPal and other reversible payments, discouraging escrow use, autobuy sites, locked sales threads etc.
  • Impersonation of any kind (although this probably falls under outright fraud)
  • Fake ICOs and other projects - fake teams, plagiarized whitepapers, etc

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January 19, 2019, 03:07:35 AM
Merited by Vod (2), xtraelv (1)
 #5

Unacceptable behavior that will result in a red tag:

Attempted or successful fraud or theft.
Business activity that resulted in the loss of funds by others.
Account sales
Merit sales / swapping
Harassing a DT
Offering escrow without a track record
Asking for a no collateral loan
Shilling / advertising MLM or ponzi
Escrowing for themselves
Late loan repayments / loan defaults.
Here's my input.

Any ponzi-related behavior.
Any behavior that involves an involuntary monetary transfer.
Buying reputation ≡ Buying trust ≡ Buying merit ≡ Buying accounts
Self-escrow.
Loan defaults (only if unpaid for an unreasonable amount of time)
Shilling scams.
ANN bumping, which is negative to the forum.
Using an alt account to abuse bounties/giveaways.
Selling gambling scripts or any "strategy" in a statistically -ev game.
Plagiarism.
Fake translations.
Ban evasion.
Hacked account.

What I consider not taggable:

Criticizing others.
Posting an unpopular opinion.
Leaving an unsubstantiated negative rating, if the user is not shady outside of this.
Promoting altcoins.
Using an alt account.
Anything without solid evidence or very strong circumstantial evidence*
*case-by-case

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January 19, 2019, 03:14:03 AM
 #6

Harassing a DT
ANN bumping, which is negative to the forum.
Plagiarism.
Ban evasion.
I removed the things that I agree with in the quote but have left some of the ones which I think are highly subjective and could be argued either way.


Plagiarism - I think a lot of people would argue that this is a moderation issue and not something that members should be taking into their own hands. Simply report and the user will get banned and that's a far more effective way than leaving a tag because its permanent and actually achieves something.

Ban Evasion - Again for the same reason as Plagiarism.


Harassing a DT
Harassing a DT - Depending on what kind of harassment we are talking about but if we are talking about just annoying a DT member then what is the difference to a DT member than a regular member of the forum? usually harassment can be sorted with ignoring the user and probably is not tag worthy in the majority of cases.

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January 19, 2019, 03:16:58 AM
 #7

Plagiarism - I think a lot of people would argue that this is a moderation issue and not something that members should be taking into their own hands. Simply report and the user will get banned and that's a far more effective way than leaving a tag because its permanent and actually achieves something.

Ban Evasion - Again for the same reason as Plagiarism.
I didn't mention harassment in my system. Misquote?

Sometimes users plagiarize/ban evade and moderation is slow. We know how slow moderation is. It seems better to at least "soft-ban" these users first.

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January 19, 2019, 03:18:20 AM
Merited by xtraelv (1)
 #8

Some other points for negative trust that I don't think were mentioned:

Spreading malware
Constant begging
Unrealistic loan applications



Asking for a no collateral loan / providing fake or insufficient collateral

No collateral loans shouldn't immediately be given a red trust. This should only apply if the user has little reputation/is asking for an amount that is way too unreasonable for what reputation they have. At one point I gave a staff member a no collateral loan; should they be given red trust?

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January 19, 2019, 03:19:55 AM
 #9

I didn't mention harassment in my system. Misquote?

Sometimes users plagiarize/ban evade and moderation is slow. We know how slow moderation is. It seems better to at least "soft-ban" these users first.
That was a misquote sorry! Fixed it

I guess so there's no harm in leaving the feedback but does seem like a waste of your own time to me.

Some other points for negative trust that I don't think were mentioned:
Unrealistic loan applications
This is exactly how it should be worded. No collateral loans/low value collateral are unrealistic loans but also as you mentioned do not justify a straight negative trust. Unfortunately applying sets of rules to leaving positive/negative trust is almost impossible to do due to it varies on a case by case basis. 

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January 19, 2019, 03:36:26 AM
 #10

I didn't mention harassment in my system. Misquote?

Sometimes users plagiarize/ban evade and moderation is slow. We know how slow moderation is. It seems better to at least "soft-ban" these users first.
That was a misquote sorry! Fixed it

I guess so there's no harm in leaving the feedback but does seem like a waste of your own time to me.


Sometimes evading a ban by an alt is not dealt with by a moderator. So I agree that tagging them sometimes is the best course of action.

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January 19, 2019, 03:43:07 AM
 #11

Your list mentions "lending" to get reputation. Isn't borrowing to obtain reputation looked down on too?

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January 19, 2019, 03:49:06 AM
 #12

Your list mentions "lending" to get reputation. Isn't borrowing to obtain reputation looked down on too?

Yep I made the mistake of just including "lending" but borrowing or lending to obtain "reputation" is tag worthy in my eyes although proving that is the intention would be difficult and highly subjective.

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January 19, 2019, 03:49:55 AM
Merited by vlom (1)
 #13

You have a well deserved list of rules which should be followed before tagging any person with red here.

But I found one of the rule pretty annoying and not Justified in any way.

Harassing a DT *Subjective (Extreme harassment)
This is totally Irrelative point for being tagged and can directly pointed as an abuse of power. As if a person tries to complaint against any DT or its action it would be considered as an harassment which looks totally wrong.

I would rather suggest you to upgrade it to Harassment by DT which would better support the people and give them a chance of protesting against abuse.



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January 19, 2019, 04:09:55 AM
Merited by owlcatz (1)
 #14

You have a well deserved list of rules which should be followed before tagging any person with red here.

But I found one of the rule pretty annoying and not Justified in any way.

Harassing a DT *Subjective (Extreme harassment)
This is totally Irrelative point for being tagged and can directly pointed as an abuse of power. As if a person tries to complaint against any DT or its action it would be considered as an harassment which looks totally wrong.

I would rather suggest you to upgrade it to Harassment by DT which would better support the people and give them a chance of protesting against abuse.



There is a difference between a person challenging a decision and (e.g.) someone calling Vod a pedophile and making fake reviews about him on external websites.

That sort of behaviour is extreme harassment. (and in my opinion deserves a red tag)

My intent is to take the list and turn it into a poll later for community voting on any subjective topics.  This will provide good data of what other people expect to result in tagging.
Having a bit of a charter of conduct will also make it easier to discuss controversial tags.

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January 19, 2019, 04:30:56 AM
 #15

There is a difference between a person challenging a decision and(e.g.) someone calling Vod a pedophile and making fake reviews about him on external websites.

That sort of behaviour is extreme harassment. (and in my opinion deserves a red tag)

Vod is a DT member and a person trying to harass him would probably not effect Vods account on Bitcointalk in any way as he has the power already and just a troll or a spoken harassment would not matter much and he personally can deal with it by using ignore.

But if a normal user is harassed by a DT he just could not put the DT on ignore and post here normally as he should have got a red on his profile for an undeserved reason which just puts his account to scammer level on the forum.

This proves that normal people are more affected by the red trust fact and should be given an advantage to speak not the onces who already have the power to protect themself.


My intent is to take the list and turn it into a poll later for community voting on any subjective topics.
Yes, a Poll will surely give you a clearer view about what should be on the rules to red-tag.


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January 19, 2019, 04:41:25 AM
 #16

one rather important thing that I want to say here is about backing up tags, There are certain things that not all DT will agree with, but there are some core values that everyone will be on the same page about. I see it as a duty of DT to re tag every account we see if there is something that is glaringly obvious IE - a Business here to only rip off members.

We need to be super active with this as DT is so fluid now, tags need to be backed up - who knows what the state of DT will be next month and I believe it is in the best interest of the forum for us to be proactive and prevent any user losing funds or being scammed.


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January 19, 2019, 05:22:58 AM
 #17

There is a difference between a person challenging a decision and(e.g.) someone calling Vod a pedophile and making fake reviews about him on external websites.

That sort of behaviour is extreme harassment. (and in my opinion deserves a red tag)

Vod is a DT member and a person trying to harass him would probably not effect Vods account on Bitcointalk in any way as he has the power already and just a troll or a spoken harassment would not matter much and he personally can deal with it by using ignore.

But if a normal user is harassed by a DT he just could not put the DT on ignore and post here normally as he should have got a red on his profile for an undeserved reason which just puts his account to scammer level on the forum.

This proves that normal people are more affected by the red trust fact and should be given an advantage to speak not the onces who already have the power to protect themself.


My intent is to take the list and turn it into a poll later for community voting on any subjective topics.
Yes, a Poll will surely give you a clearer view about what should be on the rules to red-tag.

A negative tag is not harassment - it is usually for a reason posted above. Unfair negative tags are discussed in reputation and sometimes removed, sometimes are countered by an opposite tag or increased by a supporting tag.  Posting defamatory remarks about someone that is not true is harassment. The reason I mentioned Vod is because that has actually happened to him. There is a limit in my opinion as to what constitutes civilized discussion. Making false claims about someone is scammy and deserves a tag.

We are surrounded by legends on this forum. Phenomenal successes and catastrophic failures. Then there are the scams. This forum is a digital museum.  
* The most iconic historic bitcointalk threads.* Satoshi * Cypherpunks*MtGox*Bitcointalk hacks*pHiShInG* Silk Road*Pirateat40*Knightmb*Miner shams*Forum scandals*BBCode*
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January 19, 2019, 06:33:53 AM
 #18

Don't forget:
1. Colluding.
2. Leaving fake negative ratings <- I'm pushing the bar with this as many people are self-censoring themselves and not acting on it.

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January 19, 2019, 07:34:44 AM
 #19

I have seen some DTs have red tagged few people for trolling but it should not be tagged in my opinion.Those kind of trolls needs to be banned because it is against the forum rules but tagging them be like using their power on someone who don't like.

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January 19, 2019, 08:04:33 AM
 #20

I have seen some DTs have red tagged few people for trolling but it should not be tagged in my opinion.Those kind of trolls needs to be banned because it is against the forum rules but tagging them be like using their power on someone who don't like.
I don't think it's in the rules that trolls shoukd be banned from the forum,if it is I stand to be corrected,the problem is there are different kind of trolls and one or two minor trolls which almost everyone does is definitely no issue and should not attract any ban.

But when one consistently trolls and argues a case incessantly against the community it then becomes hard for us to ascertain their sanity and hence we need to warn others of them,cos you may never know in real life they could be mentally unstable.
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