@THEYMOS Abusive group punished DT1 for speaking up against them

[Last of the V8s]

they can't deal with that reality so they have to blame someone.

they're 'kicking the office cat'?

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[LFC_Bitcoin]

Imagine if all the time wasted was put towards something more productive instead.. we'd be living on mars right now!

Nobody will give a single shit about red trust, reputation, DT or whatever.

I disagree. Thule, CH et. al. will continue whining. Do you really think they have any significant amount of Bitcoin? Their impact here or anywhere is zero; they can't deal with that reality so they have to blame someone.

True, Lauda.
Imagine being aware of bitcoin for as long as they have been & crying over reputation here

We all know they ridicule sig campaigns & the participants of them because their rep is so damaged they can’t join one

I’m waiting for Thule’s lawsuit against those who have painted him red. No knocks on my door yet.

[TECSHARE]

I am not sure what you are agreeing to, because I do not agree that none of this abusive behavior here has any real world consequences. Legitimate users often spend YEARS carefully and laboriously building up their reputations, taking risks all along the way in order to do so. Then a band of obsessive compulsive control freaks come along and strip that reputation with no examination, recourse, or accountability for ANY REASON they can dig up or manufacture in an instant. Are you saying your reputation is worthless? Are you saying that everyone who considers trading with people carefully examines the validity of ratings before deciding to trade? Are you saying it is likely that users whom the trust system was designed for most, new users are able to tell the difference between a real negative rating and a manufactured baseless one?

Oh well shit, you manage. I am sure everything is great for you in mod land. I am sure that offers you no additional protection from this sort of harassment right? In that case since it is not a problem for you personally it must not be a problem for anyone right? You are totally avoiding the point and essentially saying the trust system doesn't matter. The point is the lack of accountability. The point is it is totally convenient for PROTECTED people such as yourself to brush this off because you don't have to worry about it in the slightest, and pretending it is a non-issue is a far easier solution for you personally seeing as it has no cost to you. The point is double standards, selective enforcement, and ambiguous ever changing unwritten rules. Essentially what you are saying is this place is a big fucking joke and no one should invest any time money or effort into it because some retards LAARPing Game of Thrones can take it all away at any time. If you think the internet has no capability to have real world repercussions on people, I am sorry but you are either a fucking moron or totally disingenuous.

Consider for just a second, lets say Lauda or whoever else leaves controversial negative trust. Your options are A) Spend a year fighting it to no recourse, or B) Say, yeah whatever I don't care what this guy thinks. I'm not saying its a good thing that people leaves controversial feedback, I'm saying worrying about it is a waste of your time. Ultimately who is in control of your reputation is you. You've been trading here for years, do you think Lauda's feedback would effect the trust that thousands of people have in you? And in the case that you were a new user, could you not just use escrow and build up your reputation to the point where thousands of people have trust in you? I feel like the argument against my opinion is that every user here is a robot unable to read feedback, detect bias, and the weight for feedback from known shaky characters for being a "liar" or whatever else, is the same as someone claiming that you scammed them.

I've managed to avoid harassment because I don't engage with people's provocation. There is always someone trying to start something, I'll say my peace if I feel so inclined and then I'm done. If someone wants to insult me, have at it, I've got thick enough skin but I wont give you the satisfaction of overreacting and making your day by becoming enraged. From my perspective, you are handing groups of people with 0 authority complete power over you. Its like bullies in elementary school, they can make faces at you all day, but they'll get bored if you don't start crying and screaming every time they do it.

I'm not against you in saying that it sucks people are trying to be internet bullies, I'm saying that everyone is turning a molehill into a mountain. If someone leaves you bad feedback, let them make a jackass out of themselves and discredit themselves. As soon as you fly off the handle and let loose on them, people start to think that maybe the negative feedback is valid.

Its a moral crusade for them, they have not been cut off from their income.

You are missing a major point ( signature campains) .

Most managers don't accept members with a negative trust from DT member which i don't find very reasonable but still.

That is one reason why so many people spend a quarter of their lifetime debating DT and trust shit, i am pretty certain if signature campaigns focus on merit / quality post and cancel the trust rule, many people will stop caring - because as you mentioned most people here don't trade, and once they happen to do so - they use escrow anyway!

I'll get back to you on this

Well that is oh so magnanimous of you to decide for me and everyone else what is a waste of our time. Very gracious of you. It is not just feedback but the patterns of intimidation and punitive behavior engaged against anyone who challenges them forcing people to divide and form cliques. I warned about this result years ago and as usual you, and the rest of the peanut gallery poo pooed my warnings just as you are now. Using an escrow proves nothing as far as your reputability as you have no opportunity to steal anything. This is one reason why I personally refuse escrow in most cases because it shows people I am worthy of trust, not just reliable to put something in a box as promised. Additionally using an escrow itself is a risk as countless examples have shown us.

"I feel like the argument against my opinion is that every user here is a robot unable to read feedback, detect bias, and the weight for feedback from known shaky characters for being a "liar" or whatever else, is the same as someone claiming that you scammed them. "

Tell me Salty, what is the purported purpose of the trust system? Is it not supposed to be a tool for the newest and most uninformed users to be able to wade trough the marketplace and pick the most reputable traders to engage with? Is this not because they are new and unable to make informed decisions on their own to a large degree not knowing how things work here? If your premise is correct then the trust system serves ZERO purpose. The fact is even if they do know what to do most people are just going to look at the red and green numbers and move along because people are lazy. This translates to loss of sales or inability to participate in projects as a direct result of false abusive ratings, among other things like selective inclusions/exclusions.

You you have managed to avoid harassment because you are a jellyfish that flows with the tide. Also you are a mod, and to pretend like that offers you no protection from this is just a lie.

[Lauda]

they can't deal with that reality so they have to blame someone.

they're 'kicking the office cat'?

Correct.

True, Lauda.
Imagine being aware of bitcoin for as long as they have been & crying over reputation here

We all know they ridicule sig campaigns & the participants of them because their rep is so damaged they can’t join one

I’m waiting for Thule’s lawsuit against those who have painted him red. No knocks on my door yet.

It's understandable to complain when you receive that scary red color, but making it your life mission to shitpost/complain about it over several months (if not longer)? Quite the pathetic life one has to have.

[SaltySpitoon]

Well that is oh so magnanimous of you to decide for me and everyone else what is a waste of our time. Very gracious of you. It is not just feedback but the patterns of intimidation and punitive behavior engaged against anyone who challenges them forcing people to divide and form cliques. I warned about this result years ago and as usual you, and the rest of the peanut gallery poo pooed my warnings just as you are now. Using an escrow proves nothing as far as your reputability as you have no opportunity to steal anything. This is one reason why I personally refuse escrow in most cases because it shows people I am worthy of trust, not just reliable to put something in a box as promised. Additionally using an escrow itself is a risk as countless examples have shown us.

"I feel like the argument against my opinion is that every user here is a robot unable to read feedback, detect bias, and the weight for feedback from known shaky characters for being a "liar" or whatever else, is the same as someone claiming that you scammed them. "

Tell me Salty, what is the purported purpose of the trust system? Is it not supposed to be a tool for the newest most new and uninformed users to be able to wade trough the marketplace and pick the most reputable traders to engage with? Is this not because they are new and unable to make informed decisions on their own to a large degree not knowing how things work here? If your premise is was correct then the trust system serves ZERO purpose. The fact is even if they do know what to do most people are just going to look at the red and green numbers and move along because people are lazy. This translates to loss of sales or inability to participate in projects as a direct result of false abusive ratings, among other things like selective inclusions/exclusions.

You you have managed to avoid harassment because you are a jellyfish that flows with the tide. Also you are a mod, and to pretend like that offers you no protection from this is just a lie.

The grand standing is appreciated as always. You can waste your time worrying about 1 in a trillion scenarios if you want, but most people are happy to live their lives without worrying that someone from the forum is going to hire someone to come get them or stage some sort of IRS conspiracy.  My response is that you are giving these people power over you. That doesn't excuse their action, I'm just saying you are taking the absolute least effective course of action. The DT bullies you are spending your time fighting, and the hours you are spending trying to reform a system is to fight someone with the authority of a hall monitor. If we aren't willing to give people the benefit of the doubt that they'll read feedback before judging its validity, then its all a moot point anyway. If a negative rating about you being a space alien can effect your business in any way, then this is not a hospitable business environment.

The trust system is indeed a tool for the newest most new and uniformed users to help them wade through the marketplace. I'm not seeing any new uniformed users here. The fact that you have already formulated your own idea of who is trustworthy and not means that you aren't relying on the default trust system. New users will do the same in a couple of months. I don't think it plays a major role here, no. Its a nice handy guideline for new users, not some all powerful list that decides the fate of anything besides a general suggestion for new users. What we are talking about is personal problems between users. I'm against creating a billion sets of rules that restrict users because 10 forum members can't get along. Then we add more rules when someone finds a new way around them. As we've had this discussion before, I don't agree with your rule proposals. We've already established that everyone here has different definitions of untrustworthy behavior, why suppress the feedback from people that are in the wrong? Let individuals judge who is wrong and who is right. If you are saying, yeah but we can't trust the users, they won't make informed decisions! Thats not a problem with the system, thats a problem with individuals once again.

We keep talking about how the trust system needs to be decentralized yet specific rules can be bullied into vote by either Extortion Group or Anti Extortion Group? Both groups are in effect looking to accomplish the same thing. You want accountability and by doing so making the trust system useless. They want to keep abusing trust, but my point is that people abusing trust doesn't break the system, it just makes their flaws more obvious. Let them make their own flaws obvious and trust users to make their own decisions.

Also, I haven't been a moderator for a few months, didn't have time to continue. The ignore button works pretty well when it comes to harassment.

[TECSHARE]

The grand standing is appreciated as always. You can waste your time worrying about 1 in a trillion scenarios if you want, but most people are happy to live their lives without worrying that someone from the forum is going to hire someone to come get them or stage some sort of IRS conspiracy.  My response is that you are giving these people power over you. That doesn't excuse their action, I'm just saying you are taking the absolute least effective course of action. The DT bullies you are spending your time fighting, and the hours you are spending trying to reform a system is to fight someone with the authority of a hall monitor. If we aren't willing to give people the benefit of the doubt that they'll read feedback before judging its validity, then its all a moot point anyway. If a negative rating about you being a space alien can effect your business in any way, then this is not a hospitable business environment.

The trust system is indeed a tool for the newest most new and uniformed users to help them wade through the marketplace. I'm not seeing any new uniformed users here. The fact that you have already formulated your own idea of who is trustworthy and not means that you aren't relying on the default trust system. New users will do the same in a couple of months. I don't think it plays a major role here, no. Its a nice handy guideline for new users, not some all powerful list that decides the fate of anything besides a general suggestion for new users. What we are talking about is personal problems between users. I'm against creating a billion sets of rules that restrict users because 10 forum members can't get along. Then we add more rules when someone finds a new way around them. As we've had this discussion before, I don't agree with your rule proposals. We've already established that everyone here has different definitions of untrustworthy behavior, why suppress the feedback from people that are in the wrong? Let individuals judge who is wrong and who is right. If you are saying, yeah but we can't trust the users, they won't make informed decisions! Thats not a problem with the system, thats a problem with individuals once again.

We keep talking about how the trust system needs to be decentralized yet specific rules can be bullied into vote by either Extortion Group or Anti Extortion Group? Both groups are in effect looking to accomplish the same thing. You want accountability and by doing so making the trust system useless. They want to keep abusing trust, but my point is that people abusing trust doesn't break the system, it just makes their flaws more obvious. Let them make their own flaws obvious and trust users to make their own decisions.

Also, I haven't been a moderator for a few months, didn't have time to continue. The ignore button works pretty well when it comes to harassment.

I see because I am challenging you I am grand standing now eh? Stop pretending like it is a rare occurrence people suffer at the hands of these people, it happens constantly on a daily basis. You are just being dismissive now because you prefer to feel right than to be correct as is your usual MO when you run out of logical arguments shortly before running away. The apathetic community here along with the shit trust system gives them power. Nepotism and fear gives them power. You are examining a tiny facet of this situation and claiming it is the whole. I spend the time doing this exactly BECAUSE I know it is a waste of time and no one else will spend the effort to do it and I am in a unique position to not be dismissed as a con artist as everyone who brings up these issues is. That is kind of the point, they can do all these things completely unchecked because they know no one will ever spend the effort to stand up against them. That is how singling people out one by one works. One day it is my turn the next maybe it is yours, who knows. That is the environment of ambiguity, selective enforcement, and nepotism I am fighting against.

None of your continual denial of the fact that users over rely on the trust system changes the fact it has a direct impact on ones ability to trade here. Again you are just taking your tiny little interpretation and expanding it out and claiming it is the whole as you summarily dismiss the other points as you always do. It is an extremely lazy and intellectually dishonest way for you to feel like you have made a point rather than making a critical examination of the issues. I don't want  a billion rules. I want a clear set of published rules that are uniformly enforced, specifically rules requiring a standard of evidence of theft, violation of contractual agreement, or violation of applicable laws before negative rating for one. What I don't want is this horse shit pretend utopia where Theymos pretends he is being an anarchist by letting a bunch of shithustlers dictate the direction of this forum because he refuses to put his foot down. How does having accountability make the trust system useless? Abusing such a convoluted opaque trust system does not make their abuse more transparent, no. I would even be happy to just totally gut the trust system and just let people leave comments. How is that for a billion rules and letting individuals judge? Oh well you haven't been a moderator woopty woo I am sure this hasn't colored your experience here or protected you in any way now has it?

[The-One-Above-All]

Imagine if all the time wasted was put towards something more productive instead.. we'd be living on mars right now!

Nobody will give a single shit about red trust, reputation, DT or whatever.

I disagree. Thule, CH et. al. will continue whining. Do you really think they have any significant amount of Bitcoin? Their impact here or anywhere is zero; they can't deal with that reality so they have to blame someone.

True, Lauda.
Imagine being aware of bitcoin for as long as they have been & crying over reputation here

We all know they ridicule sig campaigns & the participants of them because their rep is so damaged they can’t join one

I’m waiting for Thule’s lawsuit against those who have painted him red. No knocks on my door yet.

You do realize now we see the truth that you are just lauda's little bitch that ass kissing everything he says in public does not add any validity to his stupid lies?

We see lauda is just reduced from calling people scammers here (more lies from that croatian dog) because he can NOT produce any evidence of them scamming at all. TO now just speculating they do not have enough BTC to make any difference here? LOL at that dumb shit. Just bitch slapped in public over and over again. Only the most pathetic slobbering little bitches here like LFC bitchcoward still trying to suck up to lauda and back him up. Get these dregs out of DT and away from any positions of trust for good.

[Quickseller]

I'm not saying its a good thing that people leaves controversial feedback, I'm saying worrying about [controversial feedback ratings] is a waste of your time

This has shown itself to be true.

It didn’t used to be this way. In the past, a person was forced to defend controversial ratings. Today their supporters will troll the person who receives the negative ratings that are unjustified.

I don’t see how anyone could take the trust system seriously after seeing this kind of reaction to a dispute. I also don’t understand why someone would possibly think it would be a good idea to run a bitcoin related business on the forum when you know there is a potential this will happen to your business.

People "troll" because their victim will engage, if you don't give them the satisfaction thats kind of the end of it. The bolded is kind of my point, if you have unwarranted negative feedback and people are trying to harass you about it, if you don't blow it up into a massive thing, it'll just look like them being idiots and no one will take the negative feedback seriously. You look innocent in comparison, and the group of supporters begin to lose supporters. If a restaurant owner has a fake yelp review against their store that says, "Yeah the owner called me a weather balloon and spit in my face!" people will likely assume that its fake. If the owner responds by insulting them and calling them fake, it lends credence to the thought that maybe the owner is unstable enough to actually do what was claimed.

You guys are being provoked into making any false claims against you look real.

That is kinda circular logic, don't you think?

I don't think it is okay to harm someone's reputation -- and effectively remove their ability to earn income (here) for arbitrary reasons. It is a natural reaction to be upset when this happens to a person. With the current implementation of the trust system, even an obviously fake review is going to make other people hesitant to trade with the person because all reviews of those in the other person's trust network is calculated into the trust score.

The argument that "no one could possibly take the trust system seriously, therefore it is okay for someone to do a wrong via the trust system" is ridiculous. The fact the trust system is broken is not an excuse to use it to cause harm to others for arbitrary reasons. 

[asche]

if I wasn’t so soft you wouldn’t have had anything to post to embarrass me.

I also learned this the hard way on this forum.

Never post anything on private you wouldn't on public.

You are doing just great. Please keep at it.

[bill gator]

...

Love the enthusiasm, but this thread hasn't been active in over 2-weeks. You should create your own thread if you believe the issue is worthy of that, but resurrecting a thread for personal drama is a waste of everyone's time.