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Author Topic: Armory Wallet, with Bitcoin Depot issues - deposit is lost?  (Read 297 times)
HCP
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January 30, 2019, 02:38:08 AM
 #21

Now the Bitcoin is showing up in the Electrum wallet, 19.81781 mBTC.  No idea how to complete the transaction with the bitcoin payment address but it does not matter because another $2.68 in BT is needed.

Calculating the sum  for $71.14 USD without calculating the exact amount of the BTC before using the "Bitcoin Depot" ATM is a mistake.

Having only 0.01981781 BTC the transaction is for 0.020593 BTC or $71.14.  That is 0.00077519 BTC or $2.68  less the correct amount.  
BTC is still quite volatile. Attempting to calculate an "exact" amount in fiat value (ie. USD) is very very difficult. The amount of BTC varies not only with time, but also with the service provider being chosen. As you've discovered the Bitcoin Depot ATM has a stupid mark-up... a lot of "easy purchase" services (like ones that let you buy with a credit card) have shit rates.... in much the same way that credit card companies themselves like to charge 2.5% "foreign currency conversion fee" after already giving you a shitty exchange rate Undecided Roll Eyes


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While all this time and money is lost, if the hard disk fails with no backup of the "wallet key" does that mean the Bitcoin is lost?

Assuming the transaction is finally successful, what is the best way to liquidate or store the remaining $17.32 in BT remaining?
A hardware wallet, but a good one cost $70.00?    How long before the wallet becomes obsolete?  
At this point in time, the wallet will remain valid indefinitely. Aside from the fact that Electrum has an active development team and the software is completely open source, you can easily extract the private keys and import/sweep them into another wallet if required. Having said that, you should make a backup copy (or two) of your wallet file and store it safely until such time as you've spent all the funds and/or no longer want to use Bitcoin.

As for liquidating... your "safest" option for liquidating is probably one of the bigger services like Coinbase. Again, the rates offered are probably not likely to be that great. Other options involve things like trading with another person in exchange for some form of payment... ie. in person for cash from localbitcoins... or running the risk of getting scammed by swapping with someone using Paypal/Skrill/<online payment service> etc.



As for backups, do you remember the SEED (12 set of random words) that Electrum advised you to copy during wallet creation? That's the most important backup that you have and it can be used to restore the wallet, control the funds of any address within it.
OP will not have a seed if they imported the private keys from Armory to Electrum (as advised by most users in this thread). They will have an imported wallet that will ONLY contain the private keys imported.

They will only have a seed if they created a "standard" wallet and then used the "sweep" option.

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January 30, 2019, 05:30:43 AM
Last edit: January 30, 2019, 04:25:42 PM by Sprout_1
 #22

There is a seed for the first two Electrum wallets.  The transaction completed for 20.56195 mBTC or about $70.57.  

The $70.57 transaction is for a VPN and they use "Bitpay" in a payment invoice link that expires in fifteen minutes and allows a choice between:

Bitcoin BTC Network cost $0.05 BTC
Bitcoin cash BCH Network cost $0.00 USD.

This leaves a remaining 3.18396 mBTC in the Wallet or about $10.92 left of the $113.00 deposited.  The real cost of this software is 102.08 or $31.51, a 45 percent markup over the normal bitcoin rate.     The good news is that the there is a discount though a website; the normal price is $100.00.  

Seems like everyone has their own fee, so it is easy to for your Bitcoin to gradually erode with each transaction not just from the money spent but from fees that may not be straight forward.

If I recall correction the Bitcion Depot machine does not clearly inform you of their 18 percent increase over market rate.  Knowing about the 18 percent markup and the $3.00 per transaction under $250 fee ahead of time plus another three percent margin for error or other transaction fee markups should be an accurate way to estimate the deposit in terms of USD?
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January 30, 2019, 07:42:49 PM
Merited by HeRetiK (1)
 #23

There is a seed for the first two Electrum wallets.
Electrum allows for multiple wallets... some of which do not have seeds.

I would advise that you take the time to know what type(s) of wallet(s) you have and the backup requirements for each type. If you look at the titlebar for Electrum, it will say in [] the type of wallet that you have.

[standard] - Should have a 12 word seed mnemonic (exception is hardware wallets). You can view this under "Wallet -> Seed" menu option. To view the seed mnemonic, you will need to know the wallet password if the wallet is encrypted or password protected.

[imported] - This wallet only contains one or more individual private keys that have been imported manually. It will NOT have a 12 word seed. You will need to ensure you have backups of the keys ("Wallet -> Private Keys -> Export") OR a backup of the wallet file itself. ("File -> Save Copy"). Again, to export the private keys, you need to know the wallet password if the wallet is encrypted or password protected.

[2fa] - Has a 12 word seed mnemonic. NOTE: For security reasons, you can NOT view this under the wallet -> seed menu option. If you haven't written down the seed when you created the wallet, you have no effective backup mechanism for this wallet in the event that you lose access to your Google Authenticator device (ie. lost/broken/stolen phone).


Seems like everyone has their own fee, so it is easy to for your Bitcoin to gradually erode with each transaction not just from the money spent but from fees that may not be straight forward.

If I recall correction the Bitcion Depot machine does not clearly inform you of their 18 percent increase over market rate.  Knowing about the 18 percent markup and the $3.00 per transaction under $250 fee ahead of time plus another three percent margin for error or other transaction fee markups should be an accurate way to estimate the deposit in terms of USD?
For your particular situation it would appear so. There are other "cheaper" ways to convert fiat into bitcoins... 18% seems rather ludicrous. As others have suggested, outfits like Coinbase have smaller margins. Also, have you checked localbitcoins to see if there are any sellers in your local area that offer more competitive rates?

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January 30, 2019, 09:12:45 PM
 #24

Two standard wallets and an imported wallet.

The imported wallet is compromised because of exporting the entire keylist.txt file to the hard disk?   

So the funds be transferred to another electrum wallet with a different keylist?   How do I do that?

Do you think the Electrum address will work with the "Bitcoin Depot" type ATM?   With the original failed attempt with Electrum, it is very possible that the address could have been entered incorrectly.  On my last deposit with a manually entered address four attempts were required due to being hasty entering in the address.  Second attempt to scan the Armory  barcode with a laptop was successful at a distance greater than six inches.

The incentive to use a Bitcoin ATM for cash is to have a more private VPN.  Certain companies allow you to even mail in cash.  Of course any type of cyber currency might be more private than a credit card.   

If purchasing bitcoin online how does that differ in terms of privacy from using a Bitcoin Depot ATM?

"Tumblers" that provide some anonymity, but that takes a certain amount of time?   The cash ATM is more private, right?   Bitcoin depot told me some people purchase some hardware or "gaming?" things that charge less for Bitcoin because it cannot be charged back.
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January 30, 2019, 11:32:19 PM
Merited by HCP (1)
 #25

The imported wallet is compromised because of exporting the entire keylist.txt file to the hard disk?   

It's not as secure as an encrypted wallet file, but you should be save assuming your PC isn't infected with malware. Since malware is fairly common it is recommended to store larger sums on hardware wallets or using a cold storage setup. If you only store a couple of bucks at a time, are fairly careful when browsing the web and don't run executables from suspicious sources you should be fine. Just make sure you don't share the keylist.txt file on the internet and don't store it on an online drive or similar.


So the funds be transferred to another electrum wallet with a different keylist?   How do I do that?

By sweeping the funds in a fresh electrum wallet:

(a) And import, or rather sweep your coins into your new Electrum wallet like so:
https://bitcoinelectrum.com/sweeping-your-private-keys-into-electrum/

This transfers the funds from the old Armory addresses to your new Electrum wallet which leaves the old Armory addresses empty. Just make sure you write down the Electrum seed words and keep them safe.



Do you think the Electrum address will work with the "Bitcoin Depot" type ATM?   With the original failed attempt with Electrum, it is very possible that the address could have been entered incorrectly.  On my last deposit with a manually entered address four attempts were required due to being hasty entering in the address.  Second attempt to scan the Armory  barcode with a laptop was successful at a distance greater than six inches.

Legacy addresses (starting with "1") should definitely work. SegWit addresses (starting with "bc1") may or may not be supported (Couldn't find any info on that). Note that sending bitcoins from legacy addresses requires higher fees than SegWit transactions (but still should usually just be a couple of cents, assuming you don't run into a blockchain rush hour).


The incentive to use a Bitcoin ATM for cash is to have a more private VPN.  Certain companies allow you to even mail in cash.  Of course any type of cyber currency might be more private than a credit card.   

If purchasing bitcoin online how does that differ in terms of privacy from using a Bitcoin Depot ATM?

Exchanges usually require you to send in some documentation as to verify your identity. Assuming you tumble your coins before making any purchases, exchanges and authorities will have little insight on what happens with the coins once they leave the exchange. Note that paying an invoice using BitPay exposes your IP to them (They require wallets to fetch payment information from their servers over clearnet), unless you route all your connections over a VPN (chicken egg problem, anyone?).


"Tumblers" that provide some anonymity, but that takes a certain amount of time?

Most tumblers let you withdraw your coins instantly after 1-3 confirmations, however it is recommended to let at least a couple of hours (or even days) pass for improved privacy.

Some wallets have built-in privacy measures (eg. Wasabi, which can act as an tumbler using coin-joins), however they can be rather slow and unwieldy (so probably not a good idea after your Armory adventure).

LeGaulois has compiled a nice list here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2827109.0

Be extremely careful that you enter the correct domains, there are plenty of phishing sites about.


The cash ATM is more private, right?

Assuming they don't ask for your passport or biometric data, yes. But you can improve the privacy of exchange-bought coins using the methods mentioned above.


Bitcoin depot told me some people purchase some hardware or "gaming?" things that charge less for Bitcoin because it cannot be charged back.

I assume they refer to mining hardware. Don't bother if you only want to do some occasional spending.

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January 31, 2019, 02:11:57 AM
 #26

Two standard wallets and an imported wallet.

The imported wallet is compromised because of exporting the entire keylist.txt file to the hard disk?  
Not necessarily compromised, but it should not be considered secure. The security risks associated with having private keys stored in plaintext should be relatively obvious. Wink


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So the funds be transferred to another electrum wallet with a different keylist?   How do I do that?
As HeRetiK has suggest, "sweep" the private keys into a "standard" Electrum wallet. (Wallet -> Private Keys -> Sweep). Although, at this point in time, I would recommend that you ensure you have a "standard" wallet, that was setup using the "Legacy" option. This will ensure maximum compatibility with your wallet and other bitcoin related services (see below).


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Do you think the Electrum address will work with the "Bitcoin Depot" type ATM?   With the original failed attempt with Electrum, it is very possible that the address could have been entered incorrectly.  On my last deposit with a manually entered address four attempts were required due to being hasty entering in the address.  Second attempt to scan the Armory  barcode with a laptop was successful at a distance greater than six inches.
There is also a chance that the address issues you originally had, may have been related to the type of address that you were attempting to use. By default, Electrum will opt for a "native SegWit" wallet, that uses bech32 addresses (they start with "bc1"). Support for bech32 addresses is still relatively poor across the bitcoin ecosystem and a lot of exchanges and other bitcoin related services do not support bech32 and do not recognise bech32 addresses as "valid" bitcoin addresses Undecided Sad

At the moment, using Legacy addresses is not that big of a deal, because fee rates are very low... however, should fee rates spike up into the hundreds of satoshis/byte again, Legacy addresses would suffer given that they will generate slightly larger transactions than SegWit addresses.

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January 31, 2019, 07:24:26 AM
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Do you think the Electrum address will work with the "Bitcoin Depot" type ATM?   With the original failed attempt with Electrum, it is very possible that the address could have been entered incorrectly.  On my last deposit with a manually entered address four attempts were required due to being hasty entering in the address.  Second attempt to scan the Armory  barcode with a laptop was successful at a distance greater than six inches.

Legacy Bitcoin addresses come with a 4 bytes checksum. It's virtually impossible to mess it up. Bech32 addresses have even stronger checksums. The only realistic way you could spend to an invalid address is if you are using wallet software that does not verify the checksum.

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January 31, 2019, 08:54:23 AM
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Do you think the Electrum address will work with the "Bitcoin Depot" type ATM?   With the original failed attempt with Electrum, it is very possible that the address could have been entered incorrectly.  On my last deposit with a manually entered address four attempts were required due to being hasty entering in the address.  Second attempt to scan the Armory  barcode with a laptop was successful at a distance greater than six inches.

Legacy Bitcoin addresses come with a 4 bytes checksum. It's virtually impossible to mess it up. Bech32 addresses have even stronger checksums. The only realistic way you could spend to an invalid address is if you are using wallet software that does not verify the checksum.

I don't think OP is worried about mistakenly sending coins to the wrong address; rather it's unclear whether the address got declined due to a typo (ie. the checksum doing its job) or due to Bech32 addresses not being supported by Bitcoin Depot (lack of Bech32 support being still way to common IMO).

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