The difference between Ripple and Bitcoin

[e4xit]

Ripple is a medium of exchange where Bitcoin can be exchanged instantly to or from any other type of asset.

Again, this is a lie.

You can't move any type of asset, except for XRP, in Ripple.

You can only move promises to deliver assets in Ripple.

Is this not what tradefortress or someone else did to a load of n00bs (like ~coinseeker~) who did not understand why ripple was bad; 'taught them a lesson' that ripple was just an IOU by defrauding them of real bitcoin and never paying them back?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207718.0

There are many threads on this behaviour and also on ripple's many shortfalls. It will just never work on a global scale its ridiculous and un-enforcable

[~Coinseeker~]

Ripple is a medium of exchange where Bitcoin can be exchanged instantly to or from any other type of asset.

Again, this is a lie.

You can't move any type of asset, except for XRP, in Ripple.

You can only move promises to deliver assets in Ripple.

Is this not what tradefortress or someone else did to a load of n00bs (like ~coinseeker~) who did not understand why ripple was bad; 'taught them a lesson' that ripple was just an IOU by defrauding them of real bitcoin and never paying them back?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207718.0

There are many threads on this behaviour and also on ripple's many shortfalls. It will just never work on a global scale its ridiculous and un-enforcable

It's totally going to work and it's already working. Better get used to it.  

 All tradefortress did was use his popular and trustworthy status on Bitcointalk to dupe people into accepting his IOU's of BTC. Basically, M. Karpeles Jr. People choose to trust him and take him at his word.  His word proved to be complete trash and it's no surprise he also ended up pulling off one of the biggest BTC scams through his input.io site.  I BTW, never lost money to Tradefortress as I would never deal with a gateway I don't trust and I never trusted him.  

This is not a fault of Ripple, this is a fault of people putting their money with 3rd parties, they can't trust.  Simple as that.  Which is no different than the people who got Goxxed.  Do we blame Bitcoin for that?  Of course not, so don't try to blame Ripple just because there are people in this world who are dishonest.

[colour]

Ripple != XRP. The sooner you realize this, the better.

During the Gox crisis all threads about Gox were moved to Service Discussion. That issue had imo far more relevance to Bitcoin and Bitcoiners than the Ripple service does. Obviously the mods are not asleep, otherwise that thread about Dogecoin would not have gotten removed. So why are discussions about Ripple suddenly allowed back in the Bitcoin Discussion subforum?

[~Coinseeker~]

Ripple != XRP. The sooner you realize this, the better.

During the Gox crisis all threads were moved to Service Discussion. That issue had imo far more relevance to Bitcoin and Bitcoiners than the Ripple service does. Obviously the mods are not asleep, otherwise that thread about Dogecoin would not have gotten removed. So why are discussions about Ripple suddenly allowed back in the Bitcoin Discussion subforum?

There was a nonsense Ripple thread this morning that got removed.  I can only speculate but I hope it's because we're having a sound tech discussion on the benefits of Ripple for Bitcoin, especially in this post Gox climate where decentralized exchange is exactly what is needed.  Again, I can only speculate but as I said last night, I personally do appreciate it.  

[justusranvier]

There are many threads on this behaviour and also on ripple's many shortfalls. It will just never work on a global scale its ridiculous and un-enforcable

Ripple is fine as long as it's not falsely advertised.

[El Dude]

There are many threads on this behaviour and also on ripple's many shortfalls. It will just never work on a global scale its ridiculous and un-enforcable

Ripple is fine as long as it's not falsely advertised.

like maybe a fake marketcap ?

https://coinmarketcap.com/

[justusranvier]

Ripple and Open-Transactions (since someone mentioned it eariler) are both systems for tracking liabilities. Bitcoin is an asset ledger.

Commerce and finance will always involve liabilities, so there's always going to be a need to account for them.

Whether Ripple or OT is better for that task would be a subject for another thread.

[freequant]

Ripple is a medium of exchange where Bitcoin can be exchanged instantly to or from any other type of asset.

Again, this is a lie.

You can't move any type of asset, except for XRP, in Ripple.

You can only move promises to deliver assets in Ripple.

First I haven't talked of "moving" but "exchanging".
Second how is it different on Bitstamp, BTC-E, NYSE, Nasdaq...?
You *cannot* exchange assets electronically without relying on IOUs.
Once you have wrapped your head around that concept, what Ripple does is exactly like what every other exchange does but distributed and safer since your debt remains liquid no matter what the issuer does, and cryptographically provable book keeping is built in and forced upon gateways by the very fact they issue IOUs.

[runam0k]

The crucial difference is interest.

[cbeast]

The crucial difference is interest.

That or trust.

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around IOUs. It reminds me of the old adage:
"You ask for credit, I no give, YOU get mad.
I give credit, you no pay, I get mad.
Better YOU get mad!"

In early days, appliance stores had credit managers. They would investigate people before approving them for financing. (This was even before Bank Americard and Master Charge became commonly used). Asking for credit was embarrassing and only for necessities. Failure to pay meant they had their appliances repossessed. Later, credit cards and bureaus made borrowing painless. Now credit is at a point of absurdity, especially with identity theft and credit card thefts.

It's bad enough that credit ratings are handled by just three centralized bureaus, and they know almost nothing about people other than what is in a database. Judging by the inaccuracies in credit reports, they cannot work well or efficiently. The way I see this Ripple thing is even more ridiculous credit. Now, I am supposed to just accept an IOU on some anonymous person's say-so?

Instead, we need to go back a step when it comes to credit. Bitcoin has plenty of potential through scripting and colored coins to create local credit centers using local investigators. If businesses need customers, they will have to be competitive. If someone with a good reputation has rough times, then the local community will take care of their own. Credit cards work well with an inflationary currency because they can be bailed out for bad loans, but as we are seeing now, it is a death spiral for the currency. Still people and businesses will probably still prefer the easy credit rip-offs. Good Times!

[~Coinseeker~]

The crucial difference is interest.

That or trust.

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around IOUs.<snip>

You just went on this long rant about "credit" and Ripple has nothing to do with credit.  I understand if you didn't read every post in this thread, I myself do that when time is short.  Ripple is about balances, not credit.  I'll just repost this here and I encourage you to read some of the other posts and/or the Ripple primer when time permits.  

The funds that are reflected in your bank account or Paypal account or Bitstamp or BTC-e or Cryptsy or Visa card or Reward Points cards, etc...are all just balances.  What's a balance?  It's just an IOU.  They "owe you", X amount.

Ripple just allows people to exchange these same balances (IOU's) between one another.  The trust you put in the places where you have balances (IOU's), is really up to you and has nothing to do with Ripple.  

Additionally, you can not be forced to hold a balance from someone you don't trust.  It is 100% your choice.

[cbeast]

You just went on this long rant about "credit" and Ripple has nothing to do with credit.  I understand if you didn't read every post in this thread, I myself do that when time is short.  Ripple is about balances, not credit.  I'll just repost this here and I encourage you to read the Ripple primer when time permits.  

The funds that are reflected in your bank account or Paypal account or Bitstamp or BTC-e or Cryptsy or Visa card or Reward Points cards, etc...are all just balances.  What's a balance?  It's just an IOU.  They "owe you", X amount.

Ripple just allows people to exchange these balances (IOU's) between one another.  The trust you put in the places where you have balances (IOU's), is really up to you and has nothing to do with Ripple.  

Okay, so if I understand this correctly, an exchange issues and IOU represented as Ripple, which you may then use to transfer value elsewhere and cannot be exchanged with another account holder. Each Ripple agent will 100% identify the IOU Ripple holder to transfer the account and Ripple cannot be used for settlements of accounts with any other person. Correct?

[freequant]

The way I see this Ripple thing is even more ridiculous credit. Now, I am supposed to just accept an IOU on some anonymous person's say-so?

If you are a proponent of face-to-face barter with exclusively physical goods as the only acceptable way of doing business, I can understand how living in a system where accepting IOUs is the norm must feel very frustrating.

Nowadays, corner shops that sold you interesting stuff for cash are all out of business, and you have to go online order things and trust the online stores to hold on their delivery promise, and for days you are left holding ridiculous product IOUs from Amazon and the like... Worse, you can't just hold cash under your mastress with all those robbers wanting to steal it from you, so you have to give your cash to a bank and accept in exchange their IOUs, and all you get out of it is monthly statements that remind you how much money you just gave them. And even if you keep the cash under your mastress, it will awake at night and bite your ass because even your cash is IOUs backed by nothing but immediate buying power that keeps shrinking as the issuing government keeps issuing more such unbacked IOUs. Hell, even the butcher at the corner shop is part of the IOU conspiracy: you went to buy 1lb of spare ribs today but he says he doesn't have it right now so you paid anyway, got your receipt, and you have to come again pick it tonight with you receipt. In the mean time you'll have to spend the whole day biting your nail in angst of whether you'll be able to redeem that 1lb spare ribs IOU.

So of course when Bitstamp, BTC-E and hell even Ripple tell you that you'll have to trade with IOUs, how can you not laugh at their stupid face!

You will *never* accept IOUs anymore. Now you have got Bitcoins, and you will use them exclusively for face to face barter with the farmer next door because their is no other way you can spend them without accepting IOUs, and nevermind it was conceived for pseudonymous global money transfers!

[~Coinseeker~]

Okay, so if I understand this correctly, an exchange issues and IOU represented as Ripple

No, an exchange issues IOU's based on your balances with the exchange.  It is not represented as Ripples or XRP.  If it's BTC, it will be represented as yourgateway.BTC

which you may then use to transfer value elsewhere and cannot be exchanged with another account holder.

It can be exchanged with another balance or into XRP (Ripples) and then from XRP you can go into any other thing of value.  You just can't be forced to accept something, you don't want.

Each Ripple agent will 100% identify the IOU Ripple holder to transfer the account and Ripple cannot be used for settlements of accounts with any other person. Correct?

This is where you lost me.  I'm not sure what you're asking but I'll try.  By Ripple "agent" I'm assuming you're talking about the gateway or "issuer" of the IOU.  They are not going to "identify" the holder of another balance.  That's irrelevant to a trade.  All there is to it, is you have a balance and if you want to trade that balance for another thing of value, you can, as long as someone else is on the other side of that trade, willing to accept your balance in exchange.

I'll give a scenario and hopefully it will get you and I closer on this.

Ripple is a distributed exchange (no central clearing house, or centralized exchange needed) that let's you and I trade anything of value. Peer-to-peer.  Ripple allows federating payment networks so let's say: Paypal, Bitstamp, BTC-e and Bank of America are all gateways (issuers) on the Ripple network.

You have a balance at Bitstamp of 100BTC and a balance at Paypal of $1000.  I have a balance at Bank of America for $20,000 and a balance at BTC-e of 10BTC.

You want 10BTC at BTC-e to take advantage of some arbitrage opportunity.  I'm willing to sell you my 10BTC for $5,000 of your Paypal balance.  If we agree via Ripple, boom...the trade is made and confirmed in seconds.  You now have 10BTC at BTC-e and I have $5,000 at Paypal.  So:  Paypal.USD -> BTCe.BTC

But let's say you wanted to sell 50 Bitstamp.BTC.  I'm willing to pay with BoA.USD.  But you don't want to deal with banks so no trade is made.  You and I have to agree on what we trade.  What you're trading for is always listed in the orderbook.  So you wouldn't even be looking at a BoA orderbook, if you didn't want to accept their balances (IOU's).

The only time XRP or ripples would come into play, is if no direct market existed and then the trade would look like:  Paypal.USD -> XRP -> BTC.BTC-e  

XRP is just a bridge currency to help facilitate trades when direct liquidity does not exist.

[cbeast]

You just went on this long rant about "credit" and Ripple has nothing to do with credit.  I understand if you didn't read every post in this thread, I myself do that when time is short.  Ripple is about balances, not credit.  I'll just repost this here and I encourage you to read the Ripple primer when time permits.  

The funds that are reflected in your bank account or Paypal account or Bitstamp or BTC-e or Cryptsy or Visa card or Reward Points cards, etc...are all just balances.  What's a balance?  It's just an IOU.  They "owe you", X amount.

Ripple just allows people to exchange these balances (IOU's) between one another.  The trust you put in the places where you have balances (IOU's), is really up to you and has nothing to do with Ripple.  

Okay, so if I understand this correctly, an exchange issues and IOU represented as Ripple, which you may then use to transfer value elsewhere and cannot be exchanged with another account holder. Each Ripple agent will 100% identify the IOU Ripple holder to transfer the account and Ripple cannot be used for settlements of accounts with any other person. Correct?

I'm honestly not sure what you just asked me.    No worries...I'll give a scenario and hopefully it will get you and I closer on this.

Ripple is a distributed exchange (no central clearing house, or centralized exchange needed) that let's you and I trade anything of value. Peer-to-peer.  Ripple allows federating payment networks so let's say: Paypal, Bitstamp, BTC-e and Bank of America are all gateways on the Ripple network.

You have a balance at Bitstamp of 100BTC and a balance at Paypal of $1000.  I have a balance at Bank of America for $20,000 and a balance at BTC-e of 10BTC.

You want 10BTC at BTC-e to take advantage of some arbitrage opportunity.  I'm willing to sell you my 10BTC for $5,000 of your Paypal balance.  If we agree via Ripple, boom...the trade is made and confirmed in seconds.  You now have 10BTC at BTC-e and I have $5,000 at Paypal.  So:  Paypal.USD -> BTCe.BTC

But let's say you wanted to sell 50 Bitstamp.BTC.  I'm willing to pay with BoA.USD.  But you don't want to deal with banks so no trade is made.  You and I have to agree on what we trade.  What you're trading for is always listed in the orderbook.  So you wouldn't even be looking at a BoA orderbook, if you didn't want to accept their balances (IOU's).

The only time XRP or ripples would come into play, is if no direct market existed and then the trade would look like:  Paypal.USD -> XRP -> BTC.BTC-e  

XRP is just a bridge currency to help facilitate trades when direct liquidity does not exist.

I didn't mention XRPs. I think I understand the Gateway system. This is just a FUNDAMENTAL questioning of credit. Why should I trust an exchange with PayPal if I have an account with BoA? Why should I trust a Cypriotic bank if I have an account in China, or vice versa? Boom.... and it's gone! The gateway system will mitigate these problems (if it is transparent), but will probably also become a local trading IOU system only like I was talking about originally. TRUST NO ONE.

The way I see this Ripple thing is even more ridiculous credit. Now, I am supposed to just accept an IOU on some anonymous person's say-so?

If you are a proponent of face-to-face barter with exclusively physical goods as the only acceptable way of doing business, I can understand how living in a system where accepting IOUs is the norm must feel very frustrating.

Nowadays, corner shops that sold you interesting stuff for cash are all out of business, and you have to go online order things and trust the online stores to hold on their delivery promise, and for days you are left holding ridiculous product IOUs from Amazon and the like... Worse, you can't just hold cash under your mastress with all those robbers wanting to steal it from you, so you have to give your cash to a bank and accept in exchange their IOUs, and all you get out of it is monthly statements that remind you how much money you just gave them. And even if you keep the cash under your mastress, it will awake at night and bite your ass because even your cash is IOUs backed by nothing but immediate buying power that keeps shrinking as the issuing government keeps issuing more such unbacked IOUs. Hell, even the butcher at the corner shop is part of the IOU conspiracy: you went to buy 1lb of spare ribs today but he says he doesn't have it right now so you paid anyway, got your receipt, and you have to come again pick it tonight with you receipt. In the mean time you'll have to spend the whole day biting your nail in angst of whether you'll be able to redeem that 1lb spare ribs IOU.

So of course when Bitstamp, BTC-E and hell even Ripple tell you that you'll have to trade with IOUs, how can you not laugh at their stupid face!

You will *never* accept IOUs anymore. Now you have got Bitcoins, and you will use them exclusively for face to face barter with the farmer next door because their is no other way you can spend them without accepting IOUs, and nevermind it was conceived for pseudonymous global money transfers!

I'm not talking about small business, I am talking about localizing credit. Walmart could have credit departments that don't depend on national credit bureaus if regulators would allow. I think Walmart would laugh at a Bitstamp IOU. Large companies would adopt Bitcoin more readily if they were deregulated. They may create their own colored coin credits that could be traded on the open market without the need for a central Ripple authority.

Don't count small businesses out yet. Bitcoin is global and transparent. The latter is frightening to large businesses that cut corners for their big executive bonuses. The pendulum may swing back to small businesses that network globally. I hope the days will end when I can eliminate IOUs from my transactions. It is an addiction that society will need to break someday.

[~Coinseeker~]

I didn't mention XRPs. I think I understand the Gateway system. This is just a FUNDAMENTAL questioning of credit. Why should I trust an exchange with PayPal if I have an account with BoA? Why should I trust a Cypriotic bank if I have an account in China, or vice versa? Boom.... and it's gone! The gateway system will mitigate these problems (if it is transparent), but will probably also become a local trading IOU system only like I was talking about originally. TRUST NO ONE.

I updated my answer above. Didn't get it before you had responded.     Had to read it a few times.  In short though, you don't have to trust anyone if you don't want.  But if you want something from a gateway you trust:  Bitstamp, BoA, whoever...then you have the ability to trade your balances for theirs.  Wire transfers...gone.  Just trade your balance from BoA -> Bitstamp.  Done in seconds and for pennies and that has nothing to do with credit.

I'm not talking about small business, I am talking about localizing credit. Walmart could have credit departments that don't depend on national credit bureaus if regulators would allow. I think Walmart would laugh at a Bitstamp IOU. Large companies would adopt Bitcoin more readily if they were deregulated. They may create their own colored coin credits that could be traded on the open market without the need for a central Ripple authority.

Don't count small businesses out yet. Bitcoin is global and transparent. The latter is frightening to large businesses that cut corners for their big executive bonuses. The pendulum may swing back to small businesses that network globally. I hope the days will end when I can eliminate IOUs from my transactions. It is an addiction that society will need to break someday.

I know freequant is going to respond this but I just couldn't let this go. 

First, Ripple is not a central authority.  It's just a payment protocol that lets us trade peer-to-peer.  No one has a say in what we trade.

Second, I don't think you really understand what an IOU is.  An "addiction".  We're not talking about credit.  We're talking about balances that you or others store with 3rd parties.  No, getting something and being able to pay for it later.  No.   

[cbeast]

I didn't mention XRPs. I think I understand the Gateway system. This is just a FUNDAMENTAL questioning of credit. Why should I trust an exchange with PayPal if I have an account with BoA? Why should I trust a Cypriotic bank if I have an account in China, or vice versa? Boom.... and it's gone! The gateway system will mitigate these problems (if it is transparent), but will probably also become a local trading IOU system only like I was talking about originally. TRUST NO ONE.

I updated my answer above. Didn't get it before you had responded.     Had to read it a few times.  In short though, you don't have to trust anyone if you don't want.  But if you want something from a gateway you trust:  Bitstamp, BoA, whoever...then you have the ability to trade your balances for theirs.  Wire transfers...gone.  Just trade your balance from BoA -> Bitstamp.  Done in seconds and for pennies but it has nothing to do with credit.

Correct, the gateways themselves will have to be trusted. I think you will have a very difficult time finding people that trust any gateway unless they will insure your transaction 100% from loss. Then you have reinvented the credit card.

[~Coinseeker~]

Correct, the gateways themselves will have to be trusted. I think you will have a very difficult time finding people that trust any gateway unless they will insure your transaction 100% from loss. Then you have reinvented the credit card.

No you haven't, you're just allowing people to exchange the balances they already have. You can't buy something today via Ripple and pay for it later.   That's not how this works.

Millions of people use banks, Paypal, frequent flyer miles, rewards cards, etc., so suggesting no one is going to trust them, is not based in reality.  They do, everyday.  When you go to the ATM machine, it displays your balance.  The balances shown are IOU's from these institutions and hopefully soon, they will be gateways.  These gateways can then issue tradeable IOU's based on those actual balances. If you refuse to trust any 3rd party and only plan to deal BTC -> BTC forever, then you're right Ripple is not for you.  But IOU's are not credit...they are balances of actual assets being stored by a 3rd party.  Who you trust or don't trust, is up to you.

[cbeast]

Correct, the gateways themselves will have to be trusted. I think you will have a very difficult time finding people that trust any gateway unless they will insure your transaction 100% from loss. Then you have reinvented the credit card.

No you haven't, you're just allowing people to exchange the balances they already have.  Millions of people use banks, Paypal, frequent flyer miles, rewards cards, etc.  When you go to the ATM machine, it displays your balance.  The balance shown are IOU's from these institutions and hopefully soon, they will be gateways.  These gateways can then issue tradeable IOU's based on those actual balances. If you refuse to trust any 3rd party and only plan to deal BTC -> BTC forever, then you're right Ripple is not for you.  But IOU's are not credit...they are balances of actual assets being stored by a 3rd party.  Who you trust or don't trust, is up to you.

What are credit cards, but lines of credit you already have? They are spendable hard assets. All you are doing is adding additional fees to the lines of credit I already use.

I am not against anything. I am trying to understand what problem Ripple solves. Their is a global problem with institutional credit like "banks, Paypal, frequent flyer miles, rewards cards, etc." Bitcoin is here to solve those problems. Ripple seems to want to exacerbate the problem by adding another layer of abstraction. IOUs are only balances if the institution is solvent. Considering that most large businesses are leveraged 40:1 or higher and banks are no exception. Liquidity is a game of arcane prestidigitation. Ripple takes it at face value. Ripple is a quant's dream. It's a junk-bond clearing house on steroids. Forget 40:1, with Ripple you can leverage 4000:1. Line up to get your bank accounts paying 10% interest if you exclusively use our Ripple Card! Who will resist that? Just be sure you get out first before it all collapses.

Who you trust or don't trust, is up to you.

Like I said. Trust No One.

[~Coinseeker~]

What are credit cards, but lines of credit you already have? They are spendable hard assets. All you are doing is adding additional fees to the lines of credit I already use.

I suppose a gateway could issue a line of credit as an IOU since anything of value can be traded but I'm not talking about credit lines.  I'm talking about an actual $100 in the bank or 10BTC in Bitstamp or whatever.  Balances backed by actual assets.

I am not against anything. I am trying to understand what problem Ripple solves. Their is a global problem with institutional credit like "banks, Paypal, frequent flyer miles, rewards cards, etc." Bitcoin is here to solve those problems. Ripple seems to want to exacerbate the problem by adding another layer of abstraction. IOUs are only balances if the institution is solvent.

True and this is where it comes down to who do you trust.  I don't trust Gox so their IOU's are worthless to me.  But I trust Bitstamp, so I take their IOU's at face value and I've done that since before I even knew what Ripple was because I enjoy day trading.

The problem Ripple solves is allowing balances to be liquid and thus tradeable for any other thing of value.  Like email before SMTP, when you could only send information to someone in your same email platfrom. Now with SMTP, you can send information to any email address, regardless of platform.  Ripple does the same thing for money and things of value because right now, each payment network is it's own closed system and you can't send direct to other payment networks.  A Paypal user can only send money to another Paypal user.  With Ripple, a Paypal user can send to any other payment network like BoA or Bitstamp or whatever.  A Bitstamp customer could send payment to any Paypal user or BoA user.

Another issue that it solves, is removing the need for central clearing houses and centralized exchanges.  Like ACH or Visa or even Bitpay.  No central entity required because we can send direct, peer-to-peer and in any currency.

Considering that most large businesses are leveraged 40:1 or higher and banks are no exception. Liquidity is a game of arcane prestidigitation. Ripple takes it at face value. Ripple is a quant's dream. It's a junk-bond clearing house on steroids. Forget 40:1, with Ripple you can leverage 4000:1. Line up to get your bank accounts paying 10% interest if you exclusively use our Ripple Card! Who will resist that? Just be sure you get out first before it all collapses.

Your rant about banks and fractional reserve is really preaching to the choir.  I'm with you there.  The rest of it is you simply not getting it.  With Ripple, I can always see how many IOU's have been issued from my gateway and if they are transparent, I can reconcile that with the actual assets they have on hand.  

Like I said. Trust No One.

Then you are one who plans to never use an exchange to buy and sell BTC correct?  You never plan to use Bitpay to pay a merchant, correct?  If so, there's nothing left to discuss because Ripple is not for you and that's cool.  You're hoping for an all BTC world.  I can dig it...I just don't believe that will actually be our reality but then again, who knows.