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Author Topic: Reliability of Bitcoin mixing sites  (Read 265 times)
nerwetfdds
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February 16, 2019, 08:46:09 PM
 #1

Bitcoin mixing sites, How to make sure that sites does not keep the logs, this is never guaranteed i understand [sites can store if wants]
I've seen in some pages, for example, they say "we keep logs until 12 hours", how can be sure ??

eg: https://bestmixer.io/en

Is there any other alternatives, how can you be certain anonymity?
They say use sites like localbitcoins, for anonymity, but when you exchange, they will know your bank account, or if you pay cash also will know you ( eg. your face )

İs there %100 anonymity alternative ?

Please use simple english, thank you for answers
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February 16, 2019, 10:55:52 PM
 #2

You sort of have to take the site's word for it in the end. Using a more reputable mixer like Chipmixer or Bitblender's going to be your best bet as a less reputable site might be keeping logs without you knowing it, but nobody really knows for sure except the operator whether or not logs are really being kept. You could also try converting BTC to XMR and back to BTC again using a swapping site, though many such sites now require KYC.

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February 16, 2019, 11:52:52 PM
 #3

You can never be sure with closed source services. All current running mixers are runner in a server, so you can’t know what is happening back there and what kind of data they are collecting. Some may even be owned by government agencies.

The only exception I know is Wasabi, which is a open source wallet with a mixing function. Take a look here: https://wasabiwallet.io

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February 17, 2019, 02:48:07 AM
Merited by milewilda (1)
 #4

The only exception I know is Wasabi, which is a open source wallet with a mixing function. Take a look here: https://wasabiwallet.io
There's one problem with Wasabi's built-in mixer though, it uses "ConJoin" method which will mix your coins to others who want to mix their coins.
In the end, it won't completely remove the taint, just "scrambled" all of the user's outputs to fool blockchain analytics.

Most Blending services uses traditional method with different "flavors" like Tx fee and Tx timing randomization that will totally blow their (blockchain analysis tools) mind.
If privacy is an issue, use Tor-based services  Wink

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February 17, 2019, 04:20:05 AM
 #5

You would just stress yourself out if you do keep thinking on full anonymity. We cant really be sure even the most reputable or known mixers in the market today doesnt
log any transaction informations into its users but so far when it comes to their service there are no any complaints as of this moment. (For now) and maybe these logs will just come out unexpectedly
when it do already involves legal investigations. lol . For recommendation, tor-based services is a good option.

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February 17, 2019, 06:14:13 AM
 #6

Is there any other alternatives, how can you be certain anonymity?

There is no way to be sure 100% unless you build it on your own. Even though the code is open source, let's say, the owner could simply use another code or log everything on their servers. If you look for 100% anonymity, then you should do anything on your own. Make your own Mixer, use tor etc.





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February 17, 2019, 06:29:32 PM
 #7

Is there any other alternatives, how can you be certain anonymity?

There is no way to be sure 100% unless you build it on your own. Even though the code is open source, let's say, the owner could simply use another code or log everything on their servers. If you look for 100% anonymity, then you should do anything on your own. Make your own Mixer, use tor etc.


What a practical solution,eh? If there are Mixer owners here we would really be glad to hear out their words about anonymity.If we do make use of mixers then we cant really be sure if its 100% anonymous.

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buwaytress
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February 18, 2019, 10:27:52 AM
 #8

Might want to change the title of your thread. It's not reliability you're asking about but about whether or not these sites collect data by logging and storing your information. As all these tumbling/mixing sites are completely web-based and centralised (ie. running on their servers), then you really have no choice but to log your data with them - masking your identity helps in a way, as does using throwaway identities (IP or even access), but in the end, some trace of your ever using it remains.

The best mixers past and present understand that deleting all data is for their own benefit too, except of course, for those purportedly working for other entities for the express purpose of gathering data.

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February 18, 2019, 11:09:44 AM
 #9

If we do make use of mixers then we cant really be sure if its 100% anonymous.

Right. People need to understand that 100% anonymity doesn't exist. All mixing services offer is an additional layer of privacy.

In the end, for me all that matters is getting rid of the exchange taint, and that's what mixers do the best. Even if certain agencies still manage to spot your movements afterwards, they can't be sure that it's actually you, and that's the beauty of it. Try to prove it's me. It's not worth the time and effort of digging any deeper into it with how it costs more in time and resources than they would gain from it.

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February 18, 2019, 09:33:37 PM
 #10

Quote
There's one problem with Wasabi's built-in mixer though, it uses "ConJoin" method which will mix your coins to others who want to mix their coins.

The second half of your sentence is correct, you are mixing coins with hundreds of people and not exchanging your coins with a centralized service. Thus Wasabi provides anonymity within a set of anonymous peers, while the centralized mixers provide confidentiality. You are not anonymous towards the centralized mixer, only towards blockchain and network observers, at least in theory. In practice centralized mixer transactions are identifiable and other than ChipMixer, I don't know any other centralized mixers that tries to tackle subset sum analysis, as a consequence, most centralized mixers are selling an illusion of privacy.

Quote
In the end, it won't completely remove the taint, just "scrambled" all of the user's outputs to fool blockchain analytics.

True, but again, just because the mix in centralized mixers (when there's a mix) is not happening within one transaction, thus block explorer doesn't show attempt to show the mixes, it doesn't mean blockchain analysis won't do it, too. From blockchain analysis point of view it just means you pay for 2 transactions instead of one, like in a coinjoin. What would solve the tainting issue (if it ever becomes a real thing) those would be techniques those are trying to mislead blockchain analysis or achieve unobservability by for example moving transactions off-chain. But if coin tainting becomes a norm and exchanges start to refuse mixed coins, I guess that's pretty much would be the end of many of us working on Bitcoin in good conscious, since most BC anal misleading techniques are so weak, we'd inevitably end up building just another mass surveillance tool, instead of sound money.

Quote
Most Blending services uses traditional method with different "flavors" like Tx fee and Tx timing randomization that will totally blow their (blockchain analysis tools) mind.

Sorry but, that's objectively false: https://medium.com/@nopara73/traditional-bitcoin-mixers-6a092e59d8c2

Quote
If privacy is an issue, use Tor-based services  Wink

Agree. Although it only matters for network level privacy and even it doesn't fully cover that. There's the issue of private transaction broadcasting and private transaction retrieval without address linking. Tor solves the first one and it comes pretty useful for the second one assuming a privacy preserving wallet architecture: full node, full-SPV node and Neutrino node. The big part is the blockchain level privacy for what Tor is not useful (admittedly DiceMix (described in the CoinShuffle++ paper) has been built on top of DC-nets, which came from mixnets, which progressed toward onion routing and eventually Tor, I2P, and Sphinx what the Lightning Network uses) Anyway, Wasabi comes with built-in Tor (and it doesn't work without it.)

Creator of Wasabi Wallet: An open-source, non-custodial, privacy focused Bitcoin wallet - https://wasabiwallet.io
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February 19, 2019, 02:56:24 PM
 #11

thanks for your answers

while searching this, i see monero coin first time
this is from website: https://www.getmonero.org/

Monero is private
Monero uses ring signatures, ring confidential transactions, and stealth addresses to obfuscate the origins, amounts, and destinations of all transactions. Monero provides all the benefits of a decentralized cryptocurrency, without any of the typical privacy concessions.
Monero is untraceable


you said there is no %100 anonimty but for understanding

let s asume
i live in small town, and there is a internet cafe nearby my home
and there is no security cameras on way, and on internet cafe
i have 2 monero wallet (walleta, walletb), created by ofline (like paperwallet)
my friend send me 100 monero to walleta, the idea is being fully anonymous:
i have 100 monero now, i goes to internet cafe which is enough frequented place , and there is no spy programs on computer we know.
via using tor network;
i send my moneros to walletb

then i came to my home; 
i exchange my moneros (walletb) into bitcoins, to my new bitcoin adress.
i turn bitcoins into dollar, and send my real bank account.
i spend the all money with my visa card.

then two days later my friend says you my walleta adress, and you have all power of the goverment
(eg. inspect internet logs of internet service providers )

the question: Can anyone make relation my fiend's sended money with my speended money ?

i think max relation you can found is :
"walleta is used by internet cafe"
"but they dont know by whom"
"they will not know about walletb and further"

Am i wrong ?
if it is true i think this is a maximum anonymity.

i know this is not perfect place to discuss monero, thanks for answers
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February 26, 2019, 12:18:58 PM
 #12

the question: Can anyone make relation my fiend's sended money with my speended money ?

i think max relation you can found is :
"walleta is used by internet cafe"
"but they dont know by whom"
"they will not know about walletb and further"

Am i wrong ?
if it is true i think this is a maximum anonymity.

i know this is not perfect place to discuss monero, thanks for answers
If you do just know the basic on how crypto works then you will able to answer for yourself about these matter. Questions would be asked out only
by government on where those funds came from specially when your bank account is credited by huge numbers and that's the time they would ask out.
You can deny completely and not involving your friend since you can just tell that those monero came from your investment when it was still cheap wayback before and
you plan to convert it.

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February 27, 2019, 10:01:46 PM
 #13

If you want that 100% anonimity, then pray to find normal smartphone somehow left in street/square (great if included sim card or buy somewhere without id and etc). Then load money on your number and buy internet, find a place where there are no cameras and you rarely visit, turn on internet (mobile data) and do what you want. Then throw away that smartphone. I bet no one will catch you.
But there is simple methods too, better to search sometimes. Get tails in your usb and load OS on computer, buy VPN from most trustworthy provider, use tor and do what you want.
P.S You have to trust some services in what they claim. For example Bitmixer, they claimed that not keep logs, followed their words fully. It's sad but now they are gone.

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February 28, 2019, 02:04:33 PM
 #14

You will not be able to verify this, so do not believe that they will provide complete anonymity. Still, I wonder why you want% 100 anonymity? I do not get the point of it.
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February 28, 2019, 03:17:42 PM
 #15

You will not be able to verify this, so do not believe that they will provide complete anonymity. Still, I wonder why you want% 100 anonymity? I do not get the point of it.

The purpose of mixers is to completely obliterate any trails from past sources of funds to protect the user, so it is understandable that one user may request full anonymity from mixing services although we know that it isn't really possible even on paper.

Bitcoin mixing sites, How to make sure that sites does not keep the logs, this is never guaranteed i understand [sites can store if wants]

No one can really be sure that sites never keep logs. If, however they have done the job and it is well done, I must say that that will be enough, but then again there are the paranoid ones that can't be satisfied even if the result is already laid bare in front of their eyes, and that we have no solution on.




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March 01, 2019, 09:03:05 AM
 #16

I need someone to throw more light on Bitcoin Fog. I heard its also safe
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March 01, 2019, 09:12:25 AM
 #17

I need someone to throw more light on Bitcoin Fog. I heard its also safe
It’s not. They are a scam.

Someone just got scammed by them 2 weeks ago; check their thread.

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March 01, 2019, 10:25:21 AM
 #18

BitcoinFog is a selective scam, it is verified by their own thread on this board, but it may be livesaving to note that you still have a chance to get back your coins, because the emphasis is on the "selective" part. They only take your coins if you send too much. When I was experimenting, they took my coins at first, then I sent a support request and they gave me back in a week or so, so good luck.

Creator of Wasabi Wallet: An open-source, non-custodial, privacy focused Bitcoin wallet - https://wasabiwallet.io
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March 03, 2019, 04:57:32 AM
 #19

whenever it comes to anonymity of bitcoin and methods that you want to choose from the real question is "Who are you trying to hide from?" because depending on that your options can be limited to one or two or it can be limited to a couple of dozens.
converting bitcoin to monero and back can increase the anonymity by a lot but again the same question rises. because some normal user who is not running from the law is not going to be de-anonymized by any services but if for example someone is already running from the FBI and is under observation or has some stolen bitcoins then no matter what he does, there still is going to be a way of finding him.

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March 03, 2019, 05:37:29 PM
 #20

I think you should check out BitMix.Biz if you want complete anonymity on the transparent Bitcoin network.
This site is one among those mixing services that keep your crypto safe.

The platform will ensure to take and mix your Bitcoin with other deposits then give you the same amount of bitcoin in return. This system is designed to reduce bitcoin tracking, clean your coins and this way you can be sure of anonymity. With Bitmix.Biz, you get a letter of guarantee and this letter is a proof of its obligations

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