How can we protect Newbies from getting scammed?

[LoyceV]

Scenario
Someone has a problem with a wallet, comes to Bitcointalk, creates an account, asks a question, and gets a solution. Great! A happy new user for the forum, and another happy Bitcoin user, which adds to Bitcoin's popularity.

Reality (2 days ago)
Someone has a problem with a wallet, comes to Bitcointalk, creates an account, asks a question, gets "help" by PM from someone who asks him to enter some code into Electrum, enter his password (and I quote: "(NEVER share this password with anybody)"), and gets scammed out of $30,000.
Another clueless naive new user bites the dust, the forum loses a new user, and Bitcoin loses a potential user forever.

How can we prevent this? Wallets aren't always easy, not all Bitcoin users are tech savvy, scammers are smart and creative, and if we want Bitcoin(talk) to grow in the right direction, these things kinda just shouldn't happen at all. I know that's utopia, and we can't prevent all scams from happening, but we could do more than this, right?
What would work? Disable receiving PMs? If they can't PM, they'll post their email address so that doesn't help.
More warnings for new users? A warning PM for every few first posts they make?

I'm not sure if this topic is going to help, but I had to get it off my chest.

[1713574973]

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[Indamuck]

"theres a sucker born every minute"

There is only so much you can do to help, its just the world we live in.  People will always fall for scams.  Real world obviously is full of examples:

Herbalife scammed billions
Car dealerships scamming everyone
Bernie madoff was able to dupe intelligent and wealthy people

[Alone055]

A warning PM for every few first posts they make?

Sounds good, but rather than a PM, the warning should be shown in the post writing area just like how we see warnings like for new posts that has been submitted while we were composing, etc. The warning could be like, "Beware of scammers. Don't blindly believe anyone since not every person is a genuine helper around." and some other precautions to prevent them from such scams.

[JetAid]

We need to create a police force, and then try to develop methods to recover stolen funds.

[fronti]

This is a quite well idea to protect (not only Newbies) from getting scammed.

A warming will be fine, maybe red in the PM Part.
But as we have a lot of warnings and technical tricks already and like in your example the scammers know also on this and find ways to avoid.
Moving to email/telegram etc..

The best will be we need to be faster than the scammers in helping

------

We need to create a police force, and then try to develop methods to recover stolen funds.

recover stolen funds will not possible as we did not manage the money for people..

[JetAid]

recover stolen funds will not possible as we did not manage the money for people..

It could be done if we could track down the scammer, and initiate a legal process.

[theyoungmillionaire]

"Beware of scammers. Don't blindly believe anyone since not every person is a genuine helper around." and some other precautions to prevent them from such scams.

It will be nice if upon registering it will pop up or something, at least they are already warned.
Also, safety precaution is another warning when PMing someone like what we have already on our forum.

Existing
Message received by veterans:
!!!WARNING: This user is a newbie. If you are expecting a message from a more veteran member, then this is an imposter!!!

New feature
Newbie sending a message:
!!!WARNING: You are about to message a veteran member. Beware of scammers: If you are expecting a message from/to a more veteran member, then this is an imposter!!! Do not blindly believe anyone, not all persons are genuine helper.

[AverageGlabella]

Something technical like this we could create a shortcut of questions like a FAQ. So they select Start new thread and they are asked whether their questions fits into certain criteria in this example given its about wallets so if they enter wallet in the post then an automatic system could pick that as a keyword and ask whether their question is about wallet. They select yes and then will be taken to a another set of questions to narrow down their question. The tree would look something like Start new thread > Is your question about a wallet? > Please select your wallet A. Electrum B. Bitcoin core C. Other. > Have you lost password?> Is your wallet having problems with syncing? Basically it runs through the most common problems and at the end either links to a already informative thread or provides a link to trustworthy people who have opted in to help these sort of questions.

[tweetbit]

I’d rather suggest that newbies with wallet problem and sort of will be directly pointed to DT members or a well known technical supports in this forum first for a solution before posting it publicly. Like A list of trusted people that is posted and pinned on sections that is relevant to they’re issues.

Example:

Pinned:
   Trusted Member/Names
   LoyceV -Profile Link -other contact SM links

Location: Services

But IF (no solutions from DT) then a third party members will be called by the DT themselves. (They’re reputation will be on stake at this process).

If problem solve (a tip is welcome ).

[DireWolfM14]

I wish there was something we could do to prevent these types of things from happening, but unfortunately I think it's impossible.  More and more folks who are not tech savvy will be entering into the crypto world, and that means more people will be there in attempt to take advantage of them.  I learned a few lessons early on, and luckily for me they were relatively affordable lessons.  

Good catch finding this scammer's information, kudos for that.  Hopefully he gets caught, and the victim gets his money back.

There's a (Dutch) name in his email address. That may be fake, or it may be real if he didn't plan on scamming anyone but took the opportunity when you offered it.
If it's his real name, it might be useful to track him down.
His username is a domain name, that may help too.

[fronti]

recover stolen funds will not possible as we did not manage the money for people..

It could be done if we could track down the scammer, and initiate a legal process.

but this is not the responsibility of the forum and the members.
Sure there can be support and help but the initialization of a legal process need to done the scammed person.

[bitart]

Newbies (and other members) should know that if something is too good to be true, it is usually not true...
Also, there should be something that reminds newbies that bitcoin is really similar to the internet (because if someone starts to deal with bitcoin, he/she has some minimal knowledge about the internet otherwise he/she couldn't get in touch with bitcoin) so bitcoin is really similar to the internet, if you don't hand over your password of your email address to a stranger, you should not hand over any password, private key, etc... to strangers, doesn't matter how nicely the stranger asks...

[theymos]

Honestly, I think that someone that naïve can't be protected. Even if every inch of the page had been full of warnings, he still might've fallen for it, since he wasn't even thinking about the possibility of being given evil instructions. The scammer was a Jr Member, not some Legendary.

People like him (ie. the majority of the world population) are why we'll someday want an optional sidechain or something on top of Bitcoin which has reversible transactions (via some sort of automatic 2-of-3 escrow which expires after a while, maybe).
He should have the police contact me and I'll give them the scammer's IP logs.

[ac2eugenio]

Why are you suddenly concern about the newbies? low rank unworthy people as i recall you dont trust low rank members here so why? your gang loves to tag low rank members why do you want to protect them? its contradicting .Well for me ,let them ignorance wont save your ass from anything here high rank do scams,extortions and other shit stuffs going on here if you arent awre then leave this place.Dont trust anyone,thats the golden rule.

[friends1980]

Honestly, I think that someone that naïve can't be protected. Even if every inch of the page had been full of warnings, he still might've fallen for it, since he wasn't even thinking about the possibility of being given evil instructions. The scammer was a Jr Member, not some Legendary.

People like him (ie. the majority of the world population) are why we'll someday want an optional sidechain or something on top of Bitcoin which has reversible transactions (via some sort of automatic 2-of-3 escrow which expires after a while, maybe).
He should have the police contact me and I'll give them the scammer's IP logs.

The best lesson is getting scammed and hopefully for a minimal amount. I have had my share in my first days on the forum. Being called greedy afterwards by older members didn't exactly help my case. Being called naive was appropriate though. I reached crypto adulthood very rapidly since. Didn't happen again...

[libert19]

That's how people learn, you get scammed and you learn your lesson, some leave, some learn.

Unfortunately it's a never ending cycle, as newbies will keep coming in. That's how scammers are thriving.

[Heisenberg_Hunter]

Possibly newbies should be disabled from receiving messages from users less than a Member rank. This should probably help them a little since the trust is too displayed in the PMs which might warn them about the user. If the scammer posts his mail ID in the topic, then the problem shouldn't be under the control of forum anymore. I do accept this forum acts as an entity or middleman for newbies getting scammed more often, but it lies with the user to verify before what actions they perform. Since I visit Tech Board quite often, when I try to help out a newbie and if the problem doesn't get solved, they message me for assistance. Isn't messaging me is quite irrelevant and if I was a scammer I could have scammed them easily in a go.  Newbies can easily fall for the scams provided if they initiate the discussion and doesn't know what is going on around them.

...snip...

This is a decentralized forum, depending on quite few trusted individuals for a technical help isn't good. Anyone can help, provided the poster should be aware of his doings.

[vit05]

I do not see good points in newbie users being able to use PM. There is a lot of risks they take when receiving a PM. And most newbies use it to spread spam, scam and stuff like that.

In addition, any bug-related issues about wallets problems should be addressed in public posts. There is no real gain for this conversation to be private. Since the solution to the problem can help several other users later.

But the problem in question can potentially harm several other people. It's not a simple scam, and for those who do not understand how Bitcoin and transactions work, it can easily fall into something like that. It would be important for more people to know about this possibility. Especially in the novice section. It would be important for more people to know about this possibility. Mainly in the Beginners & Help section.

[Findingnemo]

Unfortunately it cannot be stopped until the newbies even don't have basic level skill and knowledge about crypto currencies and common sense about what they were doing.

What we can do most for them is giving a warning message at the section like marketplace such "Only trade with the person if you know him or have better reputation or always use escrows"

[The Cryptovator]

It's very sad for me that someone got scammed from forum. To be honest we can't stop this kind of stupid from get scam. I can't believe that whoever hold 7+ btc on his Electeum wallet he don't know about warning that he should not input any code that he have no knowledge about that. Also we don't know really who is scammer. As a DT we tag when someone got scam or if we doubts or suspect any scammy activity. I don't think even forum admin could help this kind of stupid. What will do with IP address if scammer use VPN or Tor browser? Scammer isn't really smart from us? So many warning post but no one bother to read, so how can we help them? If you stop PM then they will contact by mail or telegram.

Actually we can't stop them if they are not careful with their fund.

I can't see victim made any help post. Even he had not botherd to search forum even there is Electrum board. After got scam he have made thread and we can't do anything without tag scammer.

[Lafu]

I just try to be helpful for new and other users as long they dont get on me personally and want to know real things !

Most important thing on the Forum "  Dont Click any Links you dont Know or have done some research about "

[tranthidung]

I can understand the feeling of that guy who lost his/ her huge money.
However, I think that the forum always have so many available helpful topics:
Most of them can be found there:
[GUIDES] on Bitcointalk. Index thread (until there is a dedicated subforum?) (LoyceV's topic).
From essential knowledge, skills, and guide to investigate scam projects.
So, I think that the forum has actually made good help for newbies, not only newbies in the forum, but also newbies in crypto.
Or this warning message, but naive and lazy guys don't care of it.

!!! WARNING: This user is a newbie. If you are expecting a message from a more veteran member, then this is an imposter !!!

As we all known and experienced, scammers are abundantly in the world, in different areas, not only in crypto.
Each person has to prepare enough knowledge, skills, and vigilance to protect his-/ her-self.

Even if the forum disable PMs, scammers will have other ways to scam.
And, more importantly, naive guys will always easily fall into scam.
It's their faults to be extremely naive.
As theymos stated there:

Honestly, I think that someone that naïve can't be protected. Even if every inch of the page had been full of warnings, he still might've fallen for it, since he wasn't even thinking about the possibility of being given evil instructions.

It is too technical complicated for me, but sounds good idea.
However, those naive and lazy guys often don't care to use Escrow. They simply want to get fastly supports/ guides.

People like him (ie. the majority of the world population) are why we'll someday want an optional sidechain or something on top of Bitcoin which has reversible transactions (via some sort of automatic 2-of-3 escrow which expires after a while, maybe).

I don't agree to the ideas of disabling PMs in the forum, because it is one of the most helpful and essential features for forum users, no matter what who they are.
The forum actually has restrictions on Newbies' ability to use PMs.
Key lesson:
Be safe first, before thinking of anything.
Think, re-think, do it repeatedly till you think it's safe to do.
Always be extremely cautious with help for strangers.

[Jet Cash]

Surely it isn't just the newbie account that include scammers. In fact, it's probably more likely that purchased senior accounts will be scammers.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

A welcome PM from forum to all newbie could go a long way to warn them about scammers on forum. When a new user creates an account and login a PM should be sent welcoming them to the forum and warning him/her e.g "Welcome to the forum (username). Don't believe any offer or click on any links sent to you through PM's, all transactions should be carried out openly on threads to prevent possible scam attempt". in addition to any other important information the forum want to info the users about.

Surely it isn't just the newbie account that include scammers. In fact, it's probably more likely that purchased senior accounts will be scammers.

If purchase accounts get scammed I don't think it's the forum problem they deserve it because you can find warning all over the forum discouraging account farming. And those users involved in account farmingare looking for short cuts to earning therefore deserve whatever they gets be it red tagged, scammed or ban.

[theyoungmillionaire]

Why are you suddenly concern about the newbies?

Hi, ac2eugenio,

Don’t get people wrong here. We welcome newbies with open arms. As much as possible we like to help them, protect newbies, know what they want, the reasons why they want to participate on Bitcointalk. Who knows that newbie could be the next theymos. We all started as newbies here, I too have bad experienced here; got rejected, no replies from PM while asking curious questions when I was a newbie.

The thing we hate are newbies who came here to spam, do plagiarism, engage on any rule breaking/scam group of people, and other stuff that could lead to next generation of newbies a bad image of our forum. Example was a newbie saying “thank you for this topic, very helpful to me and other people” – It was deleted by moderator. Then, replied again “I have a perfect grammar and on topic message, why it was deleted? This forum is a joke.” – saying Thank you and some blah blah blah are perfect grammar now? As FH said: The forum is not an "exam", we are not here to hear the same answers again and again but in your own words.  Make us laugh (or mad!), add something of value, something new or something interesting to the discussion.
Even me who have now 41k+ good reports got 15 replies deleted and 3 topics removed.

Newbies engaging on scams or manipulations are surely bad reflections for new gens. They may think that it is a good practice to engaged on such activities, because it wasn’t red tag by the early DT members. Tagging is the way we can help other genuine newbies in choosing the right persons to communicate with. But, we can’t please everyone, people listen in different stories and they are the one who decides what stories they want to accept as true.

Again, we welcome newbies here. This forum will be passed down to the new batch of newbies, we can’t be here forever. If people think we’re against them, then you’re not part of bitcointalk. 

See you around.

theyoungmillionaire

[ac2eugenio]

Why are you suddenly concern about the newbies?

Hi, ac2eugenio,

<snip> thanks theyoungmillionaire i am just talking about the abuse from the new folks here im not saying all of the DT members are abusing the system but most of them,and you know you arent.How about situation like this,a newbie didnt agree with old member's posts and he received a redtrust for not agreeing with these people? would that be fair for the newbie? nah? yes the tag isnt appropriate and theymos doesnt even care about these abuses.What will the newcomers think about that?

A set of new rule for the old members will be a relief for those new so that abuses like what ive said will be less.This place are morelikely turned into political stage,and if you dont have power like the newbies you are nothing here.

[theyoungmillionaire]

thanks theyoungmillionaire i am just talking about the abuse from the new folks here im not saying all of the DT members are abusing the system but most of them,and you know you arent.How about situation like this,a newbie didnt agree with old member's posts and he received a redtrust for not agreeing with these people? would that be fair for the newbie? nah? yes the tag isnt appropriate and theymos doesnt even care about these abuses.What will the newcomers think about that?

Sorry to hear that, my friend. I understand what you feel. Frustrating of course, but, we can’t change the world easily and I’m sure theymos care about our DT system, that is why he is changing it every month to see how it will work. People hear your point, ac2eugenio - we listen to them, it is your freedom. Change is coming.

[LoyceV]

I can't see victim made any help post. Even he had not botherd to search forum even there is Electrum board. After got scam he have made thread and we can't do anything without tag scammer.

The victim's thread started on the Electrum board, that's where he got scammed. After that, he changed the OP into a scam accusation, so I had it moved to the appropriate board.

Why are you suddenly concern about the newbies? low rank unworthy people as i recall you dont trust low rank members here so why? your gang loves to tag low rank members why do you want to protect them?

Please don't go off-topic. If you have any problem with any of my ratings, feel free to discuss it in LoyceV's reputation thread. But there too: stay on topic! I'm not part of any "gang", and I only take responsibility for my own actions.
I love real new users, it's the future of this forum!

[manfredmann]

Newbie should be welcome so as we have to get a good number of registered users here in the forum. Though the forum has good money circulation but there is a huge percentage drop of the growth of the registered users compared to previous year to where Bitcoin has achieved the ATH market price.

The ranking system also deviates higher rank from the newbie. User's with newbie rank may be intimidated with higher ranks. Besides, newbie will going to rank up with the need of acquiring merit required to rank up. Not all users are good in English and are usually advise to go to local boards and exercise to use their own dialect to have an ease or comfort of using the forum. But, there were no merit source on every local boards and has a huge number of registered users in every local board so how do newbie expect to get even 1 merit?

 Dialect divide us all.

[Pmalek]

What I don't understand is why people don't apply the same common sense they do in real life on the internet as well. I mean if you have problems with your credit card getting declined to make a purchase would you just blindly give your card and your PIN code to the person sitting next to you on the subway just because he promised you he can fix it? Then why do the same with your private keys or passwords?

I am sorry for everyone who gets scammed out of their money but in most cases it is their own fault. Don't give your wallets to strange men on the subway and don't do it with your electronic wallets either.
if you are not willing to accept a bag of strange white powder from a random person who wants to keep it at your place then don't accept weird software from strange online users either.   

[Crypto-DesignService]

Force them to be transparent. Once a new user ask something, posting users should explain their answer as a post not thru PM.

Why not disable and have a duration time for newly-created users to receive PMs? So all the answer they will receive will be a post and can be seen/scrutinize publicly.

Maybe a 7 days duration of a disabled PM.

[examplens]

A welcome PM from forum to all newbie could go a long way to warn them about scammers on forum. When a new user creates an account and login a PM should be sent welcoming them to the forum and warning him/her e.g "Welcome to the forum (username). Don't believe any offer or click on any links sent to you through PM's, all transactions should be carried out openly on threads to prevent possible scam attempt". in addition to any other important information the forum want to info the users about.

---cut

I think a very small percentage of people read any warning or any other text. Only click on "next" and "submit". At that point, no one is thinking about a possible scam because what can going wrong, it is just forum registration.
Maybe to add a small quiz before registration, where they need to answer a few questions about some forum rules and his own securities.

but as far as I know, Newbie not only pretending to be deceived, I find here senior members who've reported fraud even if they have more experience.

[khaled0111]

Senior members should guide newbies and tell them what they should do and what to avoid to make their experience here pleasent and safe.

How to do that!... Senior members, should stop arguing about merit system, DT sytem,, and focus more on helping newbies and answering their quetions on boards like "Beginners & Help", "Development & Technical Discussion", "Bitcoin Technical Support"

However, it is not always up to senior members, newbies, also, should make an effort to learn how to secure their wallet, after all it is a new technology and you should learn a lot before starting using it.

In this particular case, the victim owned more than 30k$ of cryptocurrencies and he didn't know how to secure his funds!!
I sympathise with the victim, but it is completely his fault and no one else should be blamed for what happened.

I think it is time to change these ranks to something more significant combining current rank, trust and gained merits.

[tranthidung]

Agreed with all your above ideas.

About this one, I don't get what you want to say?
Can you clarify it, please.
Which kind of combinations of ranks, trust, and gained merits?
And, which kind of purposes of the combination?

I think it is time to change these ranks to something more significant combining current rank, trust and gained merits.

[morvillz7z]

You know what's ironic in this unpleasant situation? Coolserver.host has posted something like a guide on how to recognize, stay safe and not get ripped off just two days prior to him scamming. Let me quote:

I hope this helps a few people not getting scammed on the forum.

I don't know if ultimately his intention was to trick and scam someone or he just saw an opportunity and took advantage of it ...not that it matters and should excuse him for what he did though.


Other than that, I fully support vit05's suggestion and would post under any wallet-related seeking help topics, that you should never under no circumstances accept any help in private messages from low-ranked members:

any bug-related issues about wallets problems should be addressed in public posts. There is no real gain for this conversation to be private. Since the solution to the problem can help several other users later.

[Taki]

I think that over than 50% of newbies on this forum actually people who were banned and who created a new account or multiply accounts.
Anyway truly newbies can really became an easy victim of scammers. I believe that it's more up to them to be scammed or not than from us, users with experience.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Terrible to read about people getting scammed, it happens far too often here but I guess you can’t help stupid. The same thing happens with people falling for fake bank text scams & phone calls asking people for personal info. Some people will always fall victim to scams & fraud.

I don’t know what to suggest, you have to look after yourself & your finances. If you don’t be careful then you are likely to get fucked sadly.

[coinlocket$]

Short answer you can't.

The scam is like the doping: first of all, they create the drug, after when it will be discovered the anti-doping control will be created. When people become aware of the control used a new drug will be born and so on.

You can help with showing the trust score everywhere on the forum and disabling pm for newborn accounts and red trust accounts but it will not fix the problem.

[bitart]

Short answer you can't.
...
You can help with showing the trust score everywhere on the forum and disabling pm for newborn accounts and red trust accounts but it will not fix the problem.

I don't really think this will help...
A real scammer will buy a different, well ranked account after a successful scam attempt, because of the red trust and because he/she can afford it after a succesful scam.

I just don't uderstand people, here in the forum and sometimes in the real life...
If a stranger tells you on the street that if you hand over your wallet to him, he will show you that there's a secret pocket in it, where you can find hidden money which you haven't been aware before, would you belive him and would you hand over your wallet with your savings?  Greed and laziness helps scammers...

People should understand that they have to think before something happens, and not just after...

[Crypto-DesignService]

how can i protect my newbies from the moderator?

Do you mean yourself?
Follow Bitcointalk rules and guidelines.

[Ruffian1314]

Even if we have forums and threads to guide newbies for avoiding scams if the person doesn't even bother to research or at least check the scammer's profile then we cannot help them anymore. I think bitcointalk has already have the informations and guidelines needed for newbies.

[TheBeardedBaby]

Same as the welcome message situation. Maybe the forum has to send a message upon registration with a short Warning like this >

Do not share your private keys, seeds and passwords with anyone on the forum. There is a high risk to get scammed.

[tranthidung]

This is one of the good initiatives, iasenko.
I support your suggestion.

Same as the welcome message situation. Maybe the forum has to send a message upon registration with a short Warning like this >

Do not share your private keys, seeds and passwords with anyone on the forum. There is a high risk to get scammed.

Weeks ago, I suggested the integration of forum slogan on the right top-corner of the forum, like this:

Specifically dedicated the position on the above corner at the right of the forum for a slogan, in which describe mission and vision of Bitcointalk forum.
Why not?

A ANN topic might be un-necessary, but a slogan is good, I think.
Something like this:

Slogan, or warning message (as you suggested) should be pinned there.
Both of them looks good, I thought.

[Steamtyme]

This has been a long ongoing discussion, the forum just hasn't taken any steps towards educating new users. I thought we were close when theymos solicited opinions on a welcome message, as far as I know that hasn't happened yet. I think that every new tab should have it's own welcome/how to pop-up when you first join, with the option to disable after 1 full activity period.

For instance: In messages "Exercise caution when receiving solicited or unsolicited advice in PM. Do not assume everyone has good intentions regarding advice/downloads. Public discussion is best apart from personal/private details" I would also have forum acceptable practices regarding the use of PM's under this message.

What I don't understand is why people don't apply the same common sense they do in real life on the internet as well.  

In short people are stupid - at least we start out that way. We know nothing, but have an amazing capacity for learning. There's a few ways to do this through experience alone, can be a rough path but generally leaves a lasting impression. We can be shown/taught, welcome messages/warnings are a good way to go about this for people entering a new environment. I've always believed in trying to do more in helping/preventing, could be because I was one of those stupid people until I learned through experience.

Senior members should guide newbies and tell them what they should do and what to avoid to make their experience here pleasent and safe.
How to do that!... Senior members, should stop arguing about merit system, DT sytem,, and focus more on helping newbies and answering their quetions on boards like "Beginners & Help", "Development & Technical Discussion", "Bitcoin Technical Support"
However, it is not always up to senior members, newbies, also, should make an effort to learn how to secure their wallet, after all it is a new technology and you should learn a lot befaure starting using it.

There are plenty of members of all ranks out there offering legit advice and assistance. Not everyone is good at offering that advice or troubleshooting so personally I'd rather not see everyone lining up to "help". The problem lies in the naivety of a newbie, who gets scooped up by a scammer before someone with good intentions happens upon them. It's amazing how many people have coins but haven't learned how to secure them, especially after the FOMO of 2017.

[Carrelmae10]

..this is the act of all scammers..they ran first before the innocent people..if we are trying or doing our best to help newbies in this forum,maybe the number of victims who need a big help will be lessen..but the stupidness of few depends on how people believe or not on what others have said..it should be better for this forum to make a welcome or warning messages for those newbies trying to seek help so that no more many victims will be scammed..

[joybella]

Scenario
Someone has a problem with a wallet, comes to Bitcointalk, creates an account, asks a question, and gets a solution. Great! A happy new user for the forum, and another happy Bitcoin user, which adds to Bitcoin's popularity.

Reality (2 days ago)
Someone has a problem with a wallet, comes to Bitcointalk, creates an account, asks a question, gets "help" by PM from someone who asks him to enter some code into Electrum, enter his password (and I quote: "(NEVER share this password with anybody)"), and gets scammed out of $30,000.
Another clueless naive new user bites the dust, the forum loses a new user, and Bitcoin loses a potential user forever.

How can we prevent this? Wallets aren't always easy, not all Bitcoin users are tech savvy, scammers are smart and creative, and if we want Bitcoin(talk) to grow in the right direction, these things kinda just shouldn't happen at all. I know that's utopia, and we can't prevent all scams from happening, but we could do more than this, right?
What would work? Disable receiving PMs? If they can't PM, they'll post their email address so that doesn't help.
More warnings for new users? A warning PM for every few first posts they make?

I'm not sure if this topic is going to help, but I had to get it off my chest.

I think disabling Pm will be a great start and also the forum can disable the ability to post email or any contact address. If a user asks a question, the user should be able to get the answer on the thread the question was asked there should be no private response. 1% out of every newbie count gets scammed due to this private assistance. I would also suggest if it's doable the forum bans anyone asking people to pm them for a solution to their worries.

Truth be told someone will always get scammed not everyone is patient enough to read or use Google to get solutions to their crypto related problems especially wallet and exchange related.

[actmyname]

Wherever there is a tool, others will find ways to exploit it.

There is no perfect safeguard apart from hard research, which most are unable/unwilling to do.
If you prevent one scam from being founded, scammers will try and sneak their way to a different kind of scam.

Some time ago, a user was scammed because they had trusted a fake Telegram account with the same name as mine.
They were certainly not new to crypto but had a lapse in security. This happens frequently and is unavoidable.What is most important is to ensure that users are constantly cautious and verify what others are saying.

[LoyceV]

Bump!

Another victim:

Thank you for taking care of the forum and fighting the scammers..
Actually, I started following the malicious advice as soon as I obtained the message through e-mail notification.
This way, nervous newbies like me can miss flags/trust scores etc.

I hadn't realized this before, but indeed, if a user follows a link in the email notification, he doesn't see negative feedback or flags!

(Unless this is already included in the email, but I have no emails from negative trusted users to check)

[ololajulo]

Everyone was a newbie at a point and I dont think its depreciating. I believe the topic was brought to this forum to see what the forum can render. I beleive we have credible member as moderator and staff in these forum, they wont want to tarnish there image for any amount. They can open a thread with credible staff; capable of being escrow and handle other blockchain/crypto technicalities. I dont support a free service but probably ridiculously low. The forum should do more to protect the space and new members

[Upgrade00]

The forum should do more to protect the space and new members

The forum is already doing a lot to protect newbies from scammers, but it is important to note that not all newbies on the forum are new to the cryptocurrency space i.e. they may not be complete novices.
It's almost impossible to fully protect the public from getting scammed.

When getting into Bitcoin, and when one has actually purchased or earned some bitcoins, they should be able to protect themselves from some basic scam attempts.

I'd still like to see that welcome message implemented, to see how much it improves the firumy

[cabalism13]

I hadn't realized this before, but indeed, if a user follows a link in the email notification, he doesn't see negative feedback or flags!

(Unless this is already included in the email, but I have no emails from negative trusted users to check)

Actually you don't have to do anything for them, this forum has already gave its best to prevent scams, its already up to us on how can we further strengthen this security, it his mistake by the way for not getting know who the sender was.

If a message was anonymously sent by other user, they should first try to check them first. Its not our duty anymore, for they're responsible for their own. We also have been through this and I can't think of any more solution that could help them realize what things works as suspicious. Even trusted person can suddenly turn into bad guy.

If a mistake was already done, we can not redo it, just learn from it and might share your experience for the others to be aware. And that's already enough as a warning.

[wwzsocki]

...If a message was anonymously sent by other user, they should first try to check them first. Its not our duty anymore, for they're responsible for their own. We also have been through this and I can't think of any more solution that could help them realize what things works as suspicious. Even trusted person can suddenly turn into bad guy...

This is so true. When I was reading the OP and what happened I just couldn't believe how naive people still are after so many scams. Crypto is exploding with scams everywhere, everybody heard hundreds of scam stories but still people will give they private keys, download something or even send they password if somebody fully anonymous asks them for. There are so many threads "how to avoid to get scammed" or "watch out scam attempt", that already everybody should be alerted and treat security as the key when dealing with cryptocurrencies. I just can't understand how and why somebody acts like this, especially when it goes about 30.000$? I can understand if this is not a significant amount of money for this person then ok, hard but I can grasp such an explanation.

Lately, I got also a couple of PMs from old and new accounts and half of them was a scam attempt. Of course always in such situation, the first thing which I do is to check these accounts and PM if it was for sure sent by the real account owner. Checked this account but everything was ok, active for a long time and with a good reputation. But additionally, I always respond to such PMs and ask if this is real and this time member responded back, that he never sent this PM and don't know what is going on. Hackers get into his account but never changed the password, only acted as the real owner. This is a real threat because everything looks fine, they delete PMs immediately after sending, login only when the real user is offline and if you are not lucky enough to get to the real owner with your PM, you can be scammed very easily if you fell into this great promotion or anything else they offer, which is very hard to say no of course. I have to add this was a high-rank and established account, which is really scary and I think is worth to know that something like this already happened.

Of course, I got plenty of PMs from newbie accounts, which ask to discuss further on Telegram and there they offer this super something on which you will make a fortune, but this is so obvious scam attempt that there is no point to talk about this further because everybody already knows about this.

[Pmalek]

Hackers get into his account but never changed the password, only acted as the real owner. This is a real threat because everything looks fine, they delete PMs immediately after sending, login only when the real user is offline...

From how many different devices is it actually possible to be logged on at the same time? If someone has my password and I am logged in and using my account right now, can the hacker also use it at the same time? How about 3, 5, 10 devices

It would be good if this could be limited somehow to the number of devices we use. If I use only 2 (my pc and mobile phone) I could set that limit to 2 devices. In case a 3rd device logs on the account gets locked or the password is reset.

[tranthidung]

Lately, I got also a couple of PMs from old and new accounts and half of them was a scam attempt. Of course always in such situation, the first thing which I do is to check these accounts and PM if it was for sure sent by the real account owner. Checked this account but everything was ok, active for a long time and with a good reputation. But additionally, I always respond to such PMs and ask if this is real and this time member responded back, that he never sent this PM and don't know what is going on. Hackers get into his account but never changed the password, only acted as the real owner.

I don't think you should make things complicated like that. 

If someone go first and ask for financial supports or invitation to join groups, projects, and so on. I ignore such PMs all because they don't deserve my time to investigate who send those PMs, real users or hackers, and which intention they want. Such things always (or mostly) relate to bad purposes.

In contrast, if someone send me PMs to ask for help, such as ask for my permission to do translation from my threads, or ask for anything that I can help from my knowledge and skills, I will do reply and help them.

This is a real threat because everything looks fine, they delete PMs immediately after sending, login only when the real user is offline and if you are not lucky enough to get to the real owner with your PM, you can be scammed very easily if you fell into this great promotion or anything else, which is very hard to say no of course. I had to add that this was a high-rank and established member account, which is really scary and I think is worth to know that something like this already happened.

In serious cases, I think admins or global moderators can step in, but it is rarely without government/ police requirements, eg.
If it is personal issues between users, I don't think admin or global moderators will spend their time to do this, because basically it is not their responsibility.
Forum stores data on users' PMs 6 months after PMs deleted by senders and all recipients

Until the sender and all recipients delete the PM, plus about 6 months

[CherylltheBombshell]

Scenario
Someone has a problem with a wallet, comes to Bitcointalk, creates an account, asks a question, and gets a solution. Great! A happy new user for the forum, and another happy Bitcoin user, which adds to Bitcoin's popularity.

Reality (2 days ago)
Someone has a problem with a wallet, comes to Bitcointalk, creates an account, asks a question, gets "help" by PM from someone who asks him to enter some code into Electrum, enter his password (and I quote: "(NEVER share this password with anybody)"), and gets scammed out of $30,000.
Another clueless naive new user bites the dust, the forum loses a new user, and Bitcoin loses a potential user forever.

How can we prevent this? Wallets aren't always easy, not all Bitcoin users are tech savvy, scammers are smart and creative, and if we want Bitcoin(talk) to grow in the right direction, these things kinda just shouldn't happen at all. I know that's utopia, and we can't prevent all scams from happening, but we could do more than this, right?
What would work? Disable receiving PMs? If they can't PM, they'll post their email address so that doesn't help.
More warnings for new users? A warning PM for every few first posts they make?

I'm not sure if this topic is going to help, but I had to get it off my chest.

This topic is actually very helpful to newbies however we need to face facts that we, ourselves are the one who can only  protect or save us from scammers. In the first place, when we join bitcoin we are already starting to take the risk. We need to bear in mind that there are numbers that can be scammers so we should be conscious and should mind over matter always. Dont be driven with excitement or emotions rather think before we click. Read and then ask but dont take answer as a yes always.

Remember it on us as always. As the saying goes, trust no one!

[slashz9]

"theres a sucker born every minute"

There is only so much you can do to help, its just the world we live in.  People will always fall for scams.  Real world obviously is full of examples:

Herbalife scammed billions
Car dealerships scamming everyone
Bernie madoff was able to dupe intelligent and wealthy people

so, do you think this will continue to happen?
when someone who just joined, must pass the scam , I think your words are a bit cruel but that's the reality.
but that is humans when they are distressed they will ask for help from others, it's just that we don't know which will help / fool us.



and the best way for help them is remind them every day, even though things won't work out.
at least this will help reduce the number of people affected by scams, I don't know whether scams will continue to get victims.
we will only help, remind, next is how the person's attitude responds to it.

[wwzsocki]

I don't think you should make things complicated like that.  ...
If someone go first and ask for financial supports or invitation to join groups, projects, and so on. I ignore such PMs all because they don't deserve my time to investigate who send those PMs, real users or hackers, and which intention they want. Such things always (or mostly) relate to bad purposes...

I don't think I am making things too complicated because so far I wasn't scammed so it works.

You are right that most of these PMs are scam attempts, as I said multiple times already in my posts above, but why should I ignore all of them?

They are sent sometimes from a high ranked account, which is active and has a good reputation. Of course, if this is a newbie account, created a couple of days ago and already red-painted for scam attempt, then I will not bother to reply but I fill obligated to check these accounts because in the past I got a couple of very lucrative invitations to random promotions or even work agreements as a project or ICO advisor in the crypto boom time 2016 -2018, exactly from such a newbie accounts but to be honest it was before the introduction of a copper membership.

From another site, if I found something suspicious I can warn the community about such a scammer, report, add negative trust annotation or distrust in my trust settings, so why not if he asks for?
There are many options if you know what you are doing and at least suspect who you are potentially dealing with.

[tranthidung]

I don't think I am making things too complicated because so far I wasn't scammed so it works.

You are right that most of these PMs are scam attempts, as I said multiple times already in my posts above, but why should I ignore all of them?

Everyone has to start as newbie, me too. From my experience, I open my door to newbies, and don't disable PMs from newbies in my profile settings.
However, if any newbie send PM this way. I will ignore all their later PMs because they obviously give me scam indicator with their very first PMs.
Depends on what they write in their PMs, I will decide to reply them or ignore them later.

If someone go first and ask for financial supports or invitation to join groups, projects, and so on.

[wwzsocki]

From how many different devices is it actually possible to be logged on at the same time? If someone has my password and I am logged in and using my account right now, can the hacker also use it at the same time? How about 3, 5, 10 devices ...

I am quite sure that we can be logged to an account only from one device at a time.

One will be automatically logged off when there was another successful login attempt to this same account from a different device.

This is quite easy to check if a targeted account is active because everybody can see this in each member account summary.



Additionally, if a member is posting frequently, then is just very easy to follow his active hours. Everybody has to sleep sometimes.

This is really scary because they can post and send PMs in your name, later remove it and there is no sign that somebody was in pour account. The only way to have the best odds, to catch the real account owner, (if we suspect something is not right) is to wait for his active hours when he starts to post something. Hackers would have to delete their posts after a while and the real account owner will let them sit there, so this is the time and opportunity to get in touch with him.

[LoyceV]

I am quite sure that we can be logged to an account only from one device at a time.

One will be automatically logged off when there was another successful login attempt to this same account from a different device.

That's incorrect. I sometimes use LoyceMobile from a private window on my PC, and it doesn't get logged out on my mobile.
You can however use https://bitcointalk.org/myips.php to check if anyone else is sneakily using your account.

[Pmalek]

I am quite sure that we can be logged to an account only from one device at a time.

I am not sure about that. Maybe an admin can shed some light on this? I am pretty sure that sometimes in the past I was logged in with both PC and my phone at the same time. I didn't post from both devices at the same time but I was logged in.  

Additionally, if a member is posting frequently, then is just very easy to follow his active hours. Everybody has to sleep sometimes.

In part yes but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Sometimes I post in the morning hours. Other times I am active in the afternoon, late evening or even at night depending on my working hours.    

[wwzsocki]

I am not sure about that. Maybe an admin can shed some light on this? I am pretty sure that sometimes in the past I was logged in with both PC and my phone at the same time. I didn't post from both devices at the same time but I was logged in...

Yes, you will be logged but when you try to post or do something else, you will not be able to, only on the device where you were logged for the last time or you will be prompted to log in again.

I have a couple of devices at home and checked this already multiple times, but still, it would be great if admin or one of the moderators could confirm this.

[wwzsocki]

That's incorrect. I sometimes use LoyceMobile from a private window on my PC, and it doesn't get logged out on my mobile.

Thanks for the clarification but have you tried to post from both (logged) accounts at the same time or at least from the first one and after that from the another, without the need to log in again?

To be honest, I have never tried this on a phone, only with two or more computers and both of you are giving as an example, an account logged on the phone maybe this is the reason?

You can however use https://bitcointalk.org/myips.php to check if anyone else is sneakily using your account.

Only if you don't use VPN, proxy or any other IP changing tool. I wonder how the IP log looks like when somebody is using a Tor browser?

[LoyceV]

Thanks for the clarification but have you tried to post from both (logged) accounts at the same time or at least from the first one and after that from the another, without the need to log in again?

That works fine. I always tick "Always stay logged in:", although I think that's only related to the time-limit.

[wwzsocki]

Thanks for the clarification but have you tried to post from both (logged) accounts at the same time or at least from the first one and after that from the another, without the need to log in again?

That works fine. I always tick "Always stay logged in:", although I think that's only related to the time-limit.

post to check

checked

So I checked this and Loycev is right as we can see above.

I have logged on a different computer and posted from this account "post to check", after that again posted from this computer "checked" with no problems and need to log in again.

There is a possibility to be logged from many different devices at the same time to one account. I think, with no limit.

I'm using one account on few devices simultaneously (from time to time)...

[TheBeardedBaby]

I'm using one account on few devices simultaneously (from time to time). I've been posting from 2 devices one after another and I never get logged out. Never expected log out except when I changed my password. I'm using VPN, tor, etc so my ips are quote random.
Hope this is useful info.

[actmyname]

All accounts that have ticked the 'stay logged in' button will be logged-in until one of the sessions decides to click the "log out" button, to which all active sessions are logged out.

[Pmalek]

I wonder how the IP log looks like when somebody is using a Tor browser?

Probably a bunch of different IPs and countries in the log. I doubt that it shows any info if you are using a TOR/VPN connection.

I don't use the option to stayed logged in. I always log out when I am done posting on Bitcointalk. There is also an automatic log-out every 60 minutes. Although it is sometimes a pain in the ass logging back in due to the different captcha puzzles I still fell a bit safer knowing that I am not logged in after I am done with my session.   

[LoyceV]

Although it is sometimes a pain in the ass logging back in due to the different captcha puzzles

You're going to love this: Captcha bypass code

[Steamtyme]

There is also an automatic log-out every 60 minutes.   

You know you can just adjust it to whatever. I often set mine to 720 minutes to cover my full shift. This way you can still log out whenever you feel like you just don't hit that annoying part when you go to post and have to log in because it's been 60 minutes.
I use different devices often, sometimes I feel like an addict looking for a quick read in topics I've posted in. To the point where while I have a tab of the forum open I've grabbed my phone, logged in and checked new replies lol. Usually that's pretty late into a night shift, but it has happened .

[Pmalek]

You're going to love this: Captcha bypass code

Yes I know about the bypass code but I haven't used it yet though.

There is also an automatic log-out every 60 minutes.   

You know you can just adjust it to whatever. I often set mine to 720 minutes to cover my full shift.

I was not aware that this could be adjusted. Just took a look at settings and couldn't find where to change this log-out option.
How exactly did you change it?

[Steamtyme]

I was not aware that this could be adjusted. Just took a look at settings and couldn't find where to change this log-out option.
How exactly did you change it?

When you go to log in the box that says 60 is the minutes to stay logged in setting. You just need to adjust it to a number greater than you plan to be online, so I tend to use something above 600 so that I don't need to log in as often. So if you log out now, you will be able to change it.

[libert19]

Whenever I see a shady thread, I put a warning comment and report the thread. Almost always, thread gets deleted in few hours. That's prevention I guess?

[Lucius]

What would work? Disable receiving PMs? If they can't PM, they'll post their email address so that doesn't help.
More warnings for new users? A warning PM for every few first posts they make?

I think something needs to be done, even if it is in some ways too radical for new users. This is not some usual forum where people discuss about climate change or growing fruits and vegetables, but about cryptocurrency which has become almost a perfect way for fraud.

New users are the most vulnerable group, and I think they should be protected from themselves in a way that prevents them from sending and receiving private messages until they understand how things work. Some of them will probably post some other info for contact in post, but not all of them will do that, and other members can warn them to remove that info.

If nothing changes, things like this will continue to happen - one of the more recent examples : Flag - dj6230

[TheBeardedBaby]

Bumping this one because it's still an issue. I try to send PMs with warnings to those who I see post questions about recovery, but that's not an efficient way.
I suggest to every newbie who post a new thread in the Bitcoin Technical Support or the Wallet Software and Child Boards to get a warning to not disclose their pr.keys seeds, wallet files and avoid contacts in PMs just the way we get the warning for replying on old topic below.

[lovesmayfamilis]

Here's a recent scam post.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5323118.msg56538232#msg56538232
But just take a look at the writing style of this post. The person is talking about the very high traffic that goes to this site. After checking, I did not find anything similar. What can this talk about? I’m probably very suspicious, but it seems to me that someone will believe in the words about high attendance. Such sites should be closed immediately.
This all adds up to the fact that we cannot protect all newcomers. Until people themselves strongly trust everything that is written on the Internet and do not do their own analyses, deceptions will exist.

[ChiBitCTy]

I don’t believe this has been brought up in Meta at all yet, and is vital for all especially noobs to be aware of - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5322537.0
(Edit - sorry Loyce if I’m a bit off topic here..felt it kinda fit in to the theme)

@hilarious - maybe this is a 📌 candidate?

[Coyster]

I suggest to every newbie who post a new thread in the Bitcoin Technical Support or the Wallet Software and Child Boards to get a warning to not disclose their pr.keys seeds, wallet files and avoid contacts in PMs...

It takes newbies quite a while before they make posts in Bitcoin Technical Support or other technical boards, their first board of contact is usually the Beginners and help section, thus that warning in the more technical boards may actually not be productive as you hope it will; I know the technical boards is more suitable for posts/inquiries on wallets, recovery, seeds etc and if there should be any warning of any sort it should be there, but newbies make such inquiries in other/any boards and they'll definitely miss the warning.

Having said that, it's going to be a hassle implementing this, especially if it's going to be in all sections of the forum to be certain it'll not be missed, but there are things that people should not be told, when transacting with traditional currencies they are already aware that there are informations about your bank/debit card that should not be revealed, thus why not the same with Bitcoin, I'm not saying people should not be forewarned, but it's absolutely impossible to protect everyone and hassle-filled to protect a fairly large number of people, as they join the network they should firstly learn the inherent security protocols themselves, and ask general/open questions on informations and situations that are somewhat nebulous to them, not sending a single user a PM on the issue.

[actmyname]

Writing a welcome message

[skarais]

Writing a welcome message

This thread is very useful for anyone, especially for newbie. But I firmly believe that there are quite a number of newbie who are not good reader at first. Often find they have failed to do so and are too rushed to post something that confuses them. At least I can still find them saying "I'm new here, what should I do".

At the moment, any dozen post of warning about safety and forum rule constantly flood into contributors' post, but it get out of control when newbie don't want to read them and they get scam in the end. It's an experience that can teach and compel them to read a lot of thread of guide, information, and security.

[WhyFhy]

A good proactive approach would be better moderation.(seems these guys hearts aren't with it anymore) It has nothing to do with censorship either, (if you post a project relevant to a mods project it will magically vanish) They delete real sweat equity, while leaving lazy scammer plot shit up.

 We rarely ever hear from the mods or admin, right now there's a pin request going around for marketplace (hardware/collectible/digitalgoods) the request is being ignored and unpinned even though its pretty pertinent information that could save a lot of users a headache.
my 2 sats fwiw.

[LoyceV]

A good proactive approach would be better moderation.

I doubt that would happen. The forum's mission is to be "as free as possible", and scamming is allowed. Part of it is because Mods don't want to decide what is or what isn't a scam (apart from the obvious cases there are many gray areas), and part of it is because having Mods delete scams will create a fake sense of security (Mods can't stop all scams).
So, unfortunately, we'll be stuck with scams.

[Smartvirus]

Part of it is because Mods don't want to decide what is or what isn't a scam (apart from the obvious cases there are many gray areas), and part of it is because having Mods delete scams will create a fake sense of security (Mods can't stop all scams).
So, unfortunately, we'll be stuck with scams.

Yeah! A mean, how could mods be so certain of what project is a scam and which is not! There is only so much as the forum could do. The forum has done well to input a trust system and even the red flags on suspicious projects for obvious reasons of a scam possibility. What else do users need...?

When I saw this thread, I was eager to see the impossible reasons as to how scamming can be halt and I wasn't disappointed to have seen non because, it isn't possible.
Just as LoyceV stated  having mods decide would create a sense of fake security as people will be more open than ever and scammers would be sure to make use of this unalertness.

Its very unfortunate but, scamming is part of the system.

[WhyFhy]

My point was mods get an obvious "pin request" that shoulda been pinned as its extremely pertinent to current operations, Yet its ignored. Acknowledging the request would be a start, or telling us why it wouldn't be pinned is a good start. All 3 mods have seen the pile of shit but instead of cleaning it up they just walked around it so it gets stuck on the next guys shoe. They dont have to delete post or anything they think is a scam but ignore that kind of pin request is blatant negligence a "dilligaf" situation.

[nutildah]

part of it is because having Mods delete scams will create a fake sense of security (Mods can't stop all scams).

I've never really agreed with or understood this line of reasoning. The mods delete links containing malware, yet that doesn't give me a sense of security that all links posted on the forum are malware-free.

When accounts have been caught engaging in scams on forum (loss of money through something flag-worthy), and definitive proof is available, that account should be banned.

And if in the off chance the account was innocent and a mistake was made, guess what? It can be un-banned.


In short, other than banning actual scammers I don't see many improvements that can be made to dissuade them or people from being scammed. A reversion back to the deep red -1 for trust from the low testosterone orange it currently is would be nice.