VISA vs Lightning Network

[franky1]

mr Doo alot of flip flop Mad

just go run some scenario's. actually use LN. play around do tests. DOO something
if all you can Doo is get MAD then thats your issue.
but try not to make your social issues become the topic

1. Doo some research
2. Doo some Scenarios
3. stop getting MAD about social stuff in your head
4. learn about bitcoin/lightning
5. oh and $1 onchain and 10cent offchain for coffee is not 'exaggerations'/extremes
6. if your still going to refuse to learn about bitcoin and lightning, still going to not even run scenario's. then take your boredom to some social drama website about eastenders or coronation street, as that would suit you more to fill the gap in your life

meanwhile others will concentrate on bitcoin and related things, after all this is a bitcoin forum

[1714863000]

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[1714863000]

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[DooMAD]

research
Scenarios

If you did some research, you'd know that closing and reopening channels is not the only available option in Lightning.  The difference between us is that I don't exclusively run the worst case scenario (and literally nothing else) like you do.  This means I can factor in things like circular payments and the use of negative fees in order to assist in rebalancing a channel, rather than just allowing the channel to become exhausted like your scenario above.  A node may only need to charge enough in fees to cover the cost of making a circular payment to balance the channel, or cover the negative fees to incentivise routing transactions in the other direction.  This is a strategy each user will have to decide for themselves, but it's not as simplistic (or as dire) as you like to portray. 

As always, I'm not portraying it as "utopia".  Circular payments and negative fees do have their limitations.  They won't always be viable options.  There will be times where it won't be possible to rebalance a channel and you'll have to open a new one.  But the fact that you won't even acknowledge the existence of these options makes me believe you are not capable of being reasonable and can only talk about the negatives.  I can discuss both the pros and the cons quite happily.  Why is it literally just 100% negatives with you?  Please keep pretending it's just me stirring up "drama" and "social stuff" when I draw attention to what appears to be questionable behaviour on your part. 

oh and $1 onchain and 10cent offchain for coffee is not 'exaggerations'/extremes

No, but when you say things like:

you will see that paying 0.000000000001 (12th decimal(millisat)) per hop wont be a normal thing

that implies you believe our default position is somehow that 0.000000000001 would be a normal fee and that clearly that isn't our position at all.  That's something an extremist would say.

Clearly a 0.000000000001 fee will not be a "normal thing".  Why would you say something so blatantly obvious, unless in your head you honestly believe people do somehow think LN fees will normally be that low?  You would also be correct to point out that the sky is normally blue.  But most people would take that as something that doesn't really need to be pointed out.  What point were you trying to make by saying that fees would not normally be 0.000000000001?  I don't see anyone in this topic saying it would be a normal fee.  So why even say it?  But let's sit back and watch while you respond with "social drama" one more time and move on to the next distortion, manipulation or outright lie.

[franky1]

doo mad go flip flop on some social drama site

one day you say im exaggerating the next your saying i go too small
you even had one emotional day where you wanted to go on some emotional abuse rant that i did not include 1.5% number.
yet in the grand context of the topic the 1.5% is meaningless.
did you know visa can have deals of as little as 2pence+0.9%, thus on a microtransaction network of expecting to buy coffee-pizza £2-£10 the fee's would be under 12p no "hundreds of pounds"(based on your social work life experince which is not ven the same niche market LN would be used for)

how about just take things in the context of bitcoin and user expectation. and stop with your 'knitpick franky coz its franky'

you have had days where you have totally forgot what points you are trying to even make and contradict your own flip flops just to 'poke at franky'

you are not concerned one bit about bitcoin, you seem to prefer the social drama distractions.
so atleast take a step back before hitting the reply button and think before you write.

ask yourself are you about to write something about bitcoin or are you about to write something because it was posted by a certain user. if your initial reaction is certain user. take a step back away from the keyboard. and atleast do some research about the topic and atleast make it sound like your addressing the topic.

as for your circular fee's thought. if you actually run scenarios you would find out they aint easy and as straight forward as you think. because if another user routing through you finds he only needs 5 hops to get from him to destination but would need to route 7 hops to go through you the opposite direction. its not just your fee discount they are concerned with, its the other users in the route too(extra 2 hops).

oh and if you run scenarios like i told YOU about in regards to circular routing some users can abuse that so that they
make money out of you. i mentioned this months ago
i also mentioned to you many times to go research factories so dont go pretending i only talk about one vector of worse case scenerio. because what youll find is i actually talk about th realistic use scenario. and how theres flaws.

if i was to go full anal and display worse possible scenarios, even you would gasp
so ya it aint me saying users expect 0.000000000001.. i am the one saying users should not expect 12th decimal amounts, as a counter to other people who keep suggesting 12th decimal fee amounts and how they say there is no mechanism to push fee's up in ln, when actually there is.
its a real shame that some fools dont do research dont run scenarios and dont even appear to use LN yet are happy to try to promote a polished fully working concept, even when the devs themselves are shouting its flawed and risky and people lose funds and certain ln examples have only had 10% payment success rates

so please go actually do some research and run some scenarios

as for recent examples of some trying to promote cheap 12th decimal ln fee's in a positive manner

LN fees are almost the inverse of on-chain fees.  On-chain, users bid to offer the highest fees to the miners to give their transaction preference over others. In LN, nodes compete to offer the lowest fees possible in order to attract users to route via them rather than through other nodes.

Plus Lightning has increased Bitcoin's utility by a thousand times by making it possible to transact to the "millisatoshi" level, a thousandth of a satoshi, and without changing the basic parameters of the Bitcoin network.

franky1 believes it's an "abomination" though. Haha.

Any positive feature, try to spin it as a negative.  That appears to be the game.  

funny part
if you put in $60 to cover 20 coffee's at $3 each.. why oh why would you want others to:
a.route through you taking funds away from you meaning you cant yourself drink as many coffee's
b.use you as a route and incentivise them to use you. if its going to cost you to hav others using your funds
c. as for your post below... even in first link from muun... can you see the glaring flaw.
     c
a<   >b
     f
in the usual a-c-b scenario. fine
but to get C-b refilled using circular.. C has to get A F B permission to mess with their values
maybe A-F want to stay as they are. maybe F-B are happy as they are.. maybe B doesnt want to give anything back to C
its not straight forward as doomad suggests

[DooMAD]

For anyone who would like to enhance their understanding about rebalancing channels, feel free to have a look at the following links to understand both the upsides and downsides:

https://blog.muun.com/rebalancing-strategies-overview/
https://medium.com/coinmonks/redistribute-lightning-channels-balances-9ba3265584ee
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/84786/is-it-possible-to-rebalance-channels-by-sending-to-yourself-from-a-channel-to-a/84787

It's ultimately up to each and every one of you how you choose to transact, both on and off chain.  The most important thing is that you arm yourself with all the appropriate knowledge.