Bitcoin is a scam that thrives on language manipulation

[franky1]

"something"
lol

mind blowing knowledge of economics "something"

...
so you obviously accept fiat is just digits in a database. thus you have moved away from the database debate.

so you now want to debate the rules/reason/utility for the creation.
fiat is contract rules that are flimsy, uncontrolled and can cause distress for those involved. bitcoin is consensus rules of happy agreement without threat or flimsy rationale..

....
fiat is based on debt. where it costs NOTHING to create fiat debt. but leaves the recipient being informed that they must do things after receiving it 'or else'. though the threat is only feared by those that dont know better about ways to avoid/evade the threat.

however bitcoin has a creation cost. and it does not demand the recipient to do things after receipt 'or else'. it offers freedom and oppertunity

meaning people that desire an economy without threat/slavery/servitude can give goods and services to bitcoin knowing once they have bitcoin they have freedom...

or they can be given fiat requiring headaches to get it, and then threats after getting it.

...
but with that said. to simplify it the consensus rules of creating bitcoin and the rules of creating fiat. are rules. but bitcoins rules and method and results are better than fiat

[fxsurfer]

Since Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database and SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries, Bitcoin has nothing to do with mentioned economic concept. Bitcoin is an informatics concept related to database management. On the other hand, fiat money is economic concept since fiat money is DEBT or LOAN, which is an actual thing - SOMETHING that has supply by definition.

In the same way fiat money is represented by DB entries at banks, Bitcoin is represented by entries in blockchain.
They are similar. All the rest is convention. In the same way one accept fiat for his work and pay for goods and services, another can accept Bitcoin for his work and pay  for goods and services.
Indeed, there are difficulties in this because the poor legislation and the lack of payment processors make it difficult to accept and spend Bitcoin, but that will be solved in time.

You say debt, loan and so on. Cannot [insert any entity here] lend Bitcoin? As I said, it's all about convention. You have to either get out of that box, either stop trolling, whichever is the case.

Well, the point of this discussion is exactly the distinction between the actual thing (DEBT or LOAN or FIAT MONEY) and its representation (DB entry). So, we have TWO separate entities - the thing (money) and DB entry (representation of the thing). On the other hand, Bitcoin is DB entry and DB entry is Bitcoin. Thus, we have only one entity. That means that NOTHING is represented in a DB called blockchain and its entries are just empty or useless mathematical abstractions. It's like changing number 0 to number 50 in your excel spreadsheet. Hence, Bitcoin system is just a system which changes, stores and secures numbers, which has nothing to do with economy, money, payment, asset or whatever, since all these instances presuppose the existence (or the exchange) of actual things, not numbers. In a Bitcoin system no such thing exists, but only numbers, which renders this system just a DB management system.

[Wind_FURY]

If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness.

Nothing? Ask the miners how much investment were spent on electricity, and mining equipment.

But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.

There are no "changes" made in the blockchain, it's an append only "ledger". But not an ordinary "ledger", it's a censorship-resistant "ledger". An open, neutral, permissionless, stateless "ledger" housing digital a "coin" with no central clearing-house.

One "coin" costs $3,800. You might believe the "coin" doesn't value, but the market clearly does.

[NeuroticFish]

So, we have TWO separate entities - the thing (money) and DB entry (representation of the thing).

And what is this thing? It's nothing. What gives value to thins thing is the convention. The same type of convention that gives value to Bitcoin. The convention that you can use this "db entry" to get paid for goods and services and also pay.

Let's think further: what makes a difference between a 100$ bill and a 10$ bill? In your words 100$ is clearly a scam because it's no big difference from the 10$. Same paper, same ink, some writings on it. Why would it value more? (The answer is: because of convention.)

[Lizzylove1]

This article is not accurate for many reason, one of which is glorifying the fiat that has no value backing it but just a mere paper legislation, that is what actually gives dollar it value, and many conflicting economic policies are already taking a negative toil on it. The bitcoin has come to resolve many issues associated with our fiat and the fraudulent financial system. The bitcoin itself is very difficult and complex to create, this makes it very valuable and it fits as  currency and store of value.

[fxsurfer]

If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness.

Nothing? Ask the miners how much investment were spent on electricity, and mining equipment.

But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.

There are no "changes" made in the blockchain, it's an append only "ledger". But not an ordinary "ledger", it's a censorship-resistant "ledger". An open, neutral, permissionless, stateless "ledger" housing digital a "coin" with no central clearing-house.

One "coin" costs $3,800. You might believe the "coin" doesn't value, but the market clearly does.

Well, that's just semantics then, and my argument looks like this:

If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that economic things(goods, services or rights) cannot appear or disappear by adding or deleting numerical database(DB) entries, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmically added numerical entry (50 initially) into a DB called blockchain, is in economic sense actually NOTHING or nothingness.

[KingScorpio]

For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) are transferred from one person to another.

This is retarded.

Bitcoin can do everything what FIAT money does, except the inflation which is a feature.

the FED can create infinite amounts of Dollars but there will be only 21 million bitcoins. No central bank has the power to create more coins.

#

communal fiat are state currencies that reward individuals of a state for work that benefits the community, bitcoin is no way doing that,

this community proofed with you again that its full of idiots

[Last of the V8s]

If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that economic things(goods, services or rights) cannot appear or disappear by adding or deleting numerical database(DB) entries, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmically added numerical entry (50 initially) into a DB called blockchain, is in economic sense actually NOTHING or nothingness.

This is absolutely right. You can't create stuff out of thin air. There is no title (what you are calling 'rights') in Bitcoin.

There are no coins, or transactions or ledgers. They are all metaphors for what we are doing.

'We' as in people, real live humans.

What we are doing is coming to agreements, peer-to-peer, that my x is worth your y, and we are both happy to swap them.

We redesigned economics, correctly this time, while you slept, so that it is actually honest.

[fxsurfer]

If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that economic things(goods, services or rights) cannot appear or disappear by adding or deleting numerical database(DB) entries, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmically added numerical entry (50 initially) into a DB called blockchain, is in economic sense actually NOTHING or nothingness.

This is absolutely right. You can't create stuff out of thin air. There is no title (what you are calling 'rights') in Bitcoin.

There are no coins, or transactions or ledgers. They are all metaphors for what we are doing.

'We' as in people, real live humans.

What we are doing is coming to agreements, peer-to-peer, that my x is worth your y, and we are both happy to swap them.

We redesigned economics, correctly this time, while you slept, so that it is actually honest.

But the whole point is that "your x" is DB entry and "my y" is economic thing ( good, service or right). Giving goods, services or rights for DB entry is not market exchange (agreement on value), but giving your stuff for free and hoping others will do the same, which is essentially how ponzi schemes operate.

[Last of the V8s]

No, read again, that is not the point. There is no title or db.

[fxsurfer]

No, read again, that is not the point. There is no title or db.

That's irrelevant. Any market or payment system assumes the exchange of goods, services or rights between parties. In the case of bitcoin nothing is exchanged, but only numbers are added into the DB (blockchain). Thus, the point is that bitcoin has nothing to do with market or payment or agreement on value or economy. The whole bitcoin system is just a DB management system. People are giving their stuff for free because they falsely believe that DB management system is payment system.

[Onuohakk]

Fiat is loan, and loan is not nothing.

You have a very wrong perception of what fiat is.
Fiat is not just a loan fiat is something like a governmental order or decree of a particular rejoin it could also be financial

[Last of the V8s]

No, read again, that is not the point. There is no title or db.

That's irrelevant. Any market or payment system assumes the exchange of goods, services or rights between parties. In the case of bitcoin nothing is exchanged, but only numbers are added into the DB (blockchain). Thus, the point is that bitcoin has nothing to do with market or payment or agreement on value or economy. The whole bitcoin system is just a DB management system. People are giving their stuff for free because they falsely believe that DB management system is payment system.

I get it, I really do, new concepts are hard, sometimes even treacherous; but this was all dealt with in 1929.
Your standard economic models did not work then, and they do not work now.
I guess somehow that will be irrelevant to you.

[fxsurfer]

Fiat is loan, and loan is not nothing.

You have a very wrong perception of what fiat is.
Fiat is not just a loan fiat is something like a governmental order or decree of a particular rejoin it could also be financial

My perception of FIAT is not the issue here. The issue is the fact that FIAT is RIGHT (economic thing), while bitcoin is DB entry and that giving economic thing for DB entry is giving your stuff for free.

[fxsurfer]

No, read again, that is not the point. There is no title or db.

That's irrelevant. Any market or payment system assumes the exchange of goods, services or rights between parties. In the case of bitcoin nothing is exchanged, but only numbers are added into the DB (blockchain). Thus, the point is that bitcoin has nothing to do with market or payment or agreement on value or economy. The whole bitcoin system is just a DB management system. People are giving their stuff for free because they falsely believe that DB management system is payment system.

I get it, I really do, new concepts are hard, sometimes even treacherous; but this was all dealt with in 1929.
Your standard economic models did not work then, and they do not work now.
I guess somehow that will be irrelevant to you.

DB management system is not a new concept. What is new is the level of human stupidity where adding entries into a DB is called payment.

[okala]

This is an unfunded article and a trash because from your analysis on dollar how the bank issues it as a loan to how the owners of goods and services accept it as a collateral does not colorate with the economic definition of money, bitcoin is the advance level of all currency and at that it run on the decentralized bank call the blockchain and if you agree with me with the definition of money then bitcoin will not be a language manipulation as you have said.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

If having a dollar is similar to have right to goods than explain me this chart...



Why my 100$ bill from 1900 is now worth as much as 3$ was worth in 1900? Where are my 97$ worth goods? Disappeared due to inflation? Due to printing scam fiat money into system without coverage of goods?

Dollar (any fiat currency without gold standard) is the biggest scam of present.

[fxsurfer]

This is an unfunded article and a trash because from your analysis on dollar how the bank issues it as a loan to how the owners of goods and services accept it as a collateral does not colorate with the economic definition of money, bitcoin is the advance level of all currency and at that it run on the decentralized bank call the blockchain and if you agree with me with the definition of money then bitcoin will not be a language manipulation as you have said.

Bitcoin is not a currency. A currency is money. Money is an actual thing, such as good or certificate that grants specific rights (gold certificate or debt certificate(dollars, euros). Bitcoin is DB entry. DB entry is a record or notation of an occurrence. Bitcoin is the record of occurrence where one gives his goods, services or money for free. Calling a DB entry a currency is semantic manipulation. That's why I said that bitcoin is a scam that thrives on language manipulation.

[fxsurfer]

If having a dollar is similar to have right to goods than explain me this chart...



Why my 100$ bill from 1900 is now worth as much as 3$ was worth in 1900? Where are my 97$ worth goods? Disappeared due to inflation? Due to printing scam fiat money into system without coverage of goods?

Dollar (any fiat currency without gold standard) is the biggest scam of present.

There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars.

Well you did not answer my question. If dollar is similar to "RIGHT to goods" than where are my 97 $ worth goods? dollar is just piece of paper that i worth as much as someone is going to give for it currently. It has no value.
From that chart you can see that its value is continuously going to 0.
Average fiat currency dies after 27 years...