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Author Topic: What flags should I use for 5830s?  (Read 11017 times)
P4man
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November 10, 2011, 11:56:12 AM
 #61

And again, I TURN MY BTC INTO AT LEAST TWICE WHAT THEY ARE WORTH!

Thats amazing. So why dont you just buy 100.000 BTC on the market and turn it into twice that? Dont tell me you actually still work for a living when you have this secret way to print money?

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I actually enjoy mining and if you payed attention, I sa8id im in it for the long run.

Sure, but why do you buy your bitcoins for $7 in electricity when you can buy them for $3 on Mt GoX?  You can buy mine for $6 if you want Smiley You can still keep them as long as you want if you are in for the long run.

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possesions/BTC's are more important than physical cash. I'm not your usual statsistic and i do things for reasons of my own Enjoyment, pleasure, business, whatever.

No argument there. If you have fun doing it, who I am I to comment. Just dont kid yourself or anyone else that you are making profits, because you are not. You are losing money hand over fist. Well you would be if you were paying for your electricity, but clearly you arent. Just please refrain from advising others how to mine as "profitably" as you.

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Im not falling out with you cause you want get a buzz trying call me stupid, When blatently im not, Just not bothered about losing like a quid or whtever a day, if it means i get BTC that i need to get along in life Smiley

Be your own judge. Reread your posts, and tell me you come across like someone who knows what he is doing.

You spent something ike an average month salary on hardware thinking every pence you spent on electricity would turn in to 7 pence worth of bitcoin while in reality its 10x less and it generates even less than what you pay in electricity. When I pointed that out, you revised your estimate to 3 pence worth of bitcoins for every pence spent and only now, after who knows how many months of mining, do you realize your are not even getting once pence worth of bitcoins. Barely half of it.

Knowingly mining at a loss doesnt make one stupid, getting your costs wrong by a factor 10x, well...
Oh, and get a spell checker. saying you are " blatently" not stupid doesn't exactly make your case Smiley.

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P4man
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November 10, 2011, 12:18:10 PM
 #62

Understood, hence the comment re: reducing memory clock, which you redacted... My measurements are based on consumer-grade equipment (the UK equivalent of a Kill-A-Watt - they look the same, but ours aren't branded with that name) so may not be super-accurate... but reducing the memory clock made up for the GPU clock increase and reduced temperatures substantially.

Not only that, because of a weird side effect from I *think* the caching algorithm (dont quote me on that), decreasing the memory clocks actually increases performance. Only marginally, but measurably. Saw a nice chart with the effect a while ago, Ill see if I can find it.

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It's counter-intuitive, since the memory isn't used hard by the bitcoin OpenCL kernel and the temperature readings are presumably of the GPU die and not the surrounding area where the memory chips are mounted..

That is because the memory controller is on the GPU. The memory controller will draw less power if clocked lower, hence lowering your temperatures a bit.
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I still stand by my claim that a standard 5850 running a bitcoin miner will use the same amount of power at the wall as one with the GPU clocked up to 900 but the memory clocked down to 300.

Im not disputing it. However at stock core speed and 300 Mhz memory you may get better MH/W depending on the power draw of the rest of the machine.  Its almost certain if you combine it with undervolting (most 5850s seem happy at 1v for stock speed).

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However, intermittent gaming results in severe heat and power cycling, from idle to full-power, which is far harder on most machinery than a constant load.

Thats mostly true when you have bad voltage regulation (power spikes) and for mechanical parts. But indeed, heat cycling can in fact cause "mechanical" failures with gpu's: hair cracks in soldering or underfill, something nVidia chips had large problems with some years ago, a problem that could often be solved by baking the card (reflowing the solder).

However, electromigration is your biggest enemy here, and heat cycling plays no role there. Think of electromigration as internal wear. Many people witness this when they notice their maximum stable overclocks reduce over time. With a new cpu they can overclock, say, by 1 GHz, and after a year or two its only 800 Mhz. Thats electromigration. Its irreversible and will over time kill any chip, slowly or suddenly. And it will happen a lot sooner with high temps and voltages, though if you are lucky, that means 10 years instead of  500. If you are less lucky, its 1 month instead of 10 years.

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November 10, 2011, 02:02:13 PM
 #63

Im not disputing it. However at stock core speed and 300 Mhz memory you may get better MH/W depending on the power draw of the rest of the machine.  Its almost certain if you combine it with undervolting (most 5850s seem happy at 1v for stock speed).

I think this is the point you guys are talking past each other.

Catfish is saying overclocked GPU and underclocked RAM ~= same draw as stock (TRUE)
P4 is saying stock GPU and underclocked RAM < draw stock (ALSO TRUE).

If you can also undervolt the GPU you can save the square of voltage change in power draw.  Thus a 5% undervolt will cut power load not by 5% but by about 9.75%.  A 10% undervolt will cut power load by about 19%.

There is no magic number.  A lot depends on the individual user's power prices, ambient temps, ease of cooling, and time horizon.  Still one should be aware of that relationship.

Clock Increase = Linear power increase.
Voltage Increase = Squared power increase.

Overclocking card increases CAPITAL efficiency (hashes per $ of hardware) but doesn't improve electrical efficiency (hashes per watt).
Overvolting is likely never a good option unless you have free power.  Any gain in CAPITAL EFFICIENCY is offset by a squared reduction in electrical efficiency.  Given over 3 year lifespan electrical costs make up the majority of production costs that is a bad trade.

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However, electromigration is your biggest enemy here, and heat cycling plays no role there. Think of electromigration as internal wear. Many people witness this when they notice their maximum stable overclocks reduce over time. With a new cpu they can overclock, say, by 1 GHz, and after a year or two its only 800 Mhz. Thats electromigration. Its irreversible and will over time kill any chip, slowly or suddenly. And it will happen a lot sooner with high temps and voltages, though if you are lucky, that means 10 years instead of  500. If you are less lucky, its 1 month instead of 10 years.

Yup and it is slow and steady.  Card may run fine for a while because you didn't have it clocked to the redline so it seemed stable but that redline was continually dropping. Suddenly when that "stability redline" hits your current clock you notice it.  The hard thing is figuring out what relationship voltage & heat have to electromigration rate.  If I can get 10% more hashes running the card hot does that reduce the linespan 10%, or 1% or 50%?  Is 50% even bad?  The "effective lifespan" of a card may be much shorter than its tecnical lifespan.  As an example FPGA are only going to get more competitive.  That will put downward pressure on the price:difficulty ratio.  Entirely possible that a card bought today will be obsolete in 2-3 years simply because you can't run it without free power due to more efficient FPGA affecting the market.

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November 10, 2011, 02:25:15 PM
 #64

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Yup and it is slow and steady.

It only appears slow and steady if the electromigration is affecting transistors or via's in the critical path; ie, those that affect maximum stable clock speed. That way you can notice it, as the "red line" as you call it decreases. But electromigration may affect any transistor or via on the chip, like caches, PLLs, whatever else outside the critical path. You wouldnt notice, but one day one it will simply no longer function and your card is dead or unstable or whatever - "out of the blue".

The "effective lifespan" of a card may be much shorter than its tecnical lifespan.  As an example FPGA are only going to get more competitive.  That will put downward pressure on the price:difficulty ratio.  Entirely possible that a card bought today will be obsolete in 2-3 years simply because you can't run it without free power due to more efficient FPGA affecting the market.

As long as you dont fry it, GPUs will retain a fair resale value because you can game on them. Or fold Smiley If you fry them, well, people tend to pay considerably less for them Smiley. As for FPGAs, going to be a lot harder to sell them if they become obsolete for bitcoin mining (due to faster asics or bitcoin value approaching zero or whatever). Will be interesting to see how that pans out.


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November 10, 2011, 02:36:13 PM
 #65

As long as you dont fry it, GPUs will retain a fair resale value because you can game on them. Or fold Smiley If you fry them, well, people tend to pay considerably less for them Smiley. As for FPGAs, going to be a lot harder to sell them if they become obsolete for bitcoin mining (due to faster asics or bitcoin value approaching zero or whatever). Will be interesting to see how that pans out.

True but the resale value isn't much of an issue on a long enough timeline.  In 3 years it will be hard to unload a 5970 for $50.  By Moore's law it will have roughly the same performance as an entry level $129 card BUT it will be using 4x the power with 4x the noise, and 4x the electrical cost.  That makes it a tough sell.   Lower end cards won't even be more powerful than the cheapest entry level card.

So if your Bitcoin outlook is short (i.e. I am not sure about this so I will try mining for a couple months) then yeah GPU provide more capital security before time can catch up.  However if you are in it for the long haul all GPU are going to $0.00.

Real world example: 
HD 4890 once a $500 card can now be grabbed for <$40 on ebay.  Even that I consider a dubious buy since a HD 6770 has about the same performance for $100 new w/ warranty and uses about 1/3 the electricity.
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November 10, 2011, 03:43:14 PM
 #66

4870s sell for the same price here, sometimes a bit more. Considering I paid my 5850s second hand for about twice that, devaluation isnt a big concern. If I sell in 2 years or so, I will probably have lost ~$50 on each. Morale: dont buy dual GPU Cheesy

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November 10, 2011, 07:28:13 PM
 #67

I'm currently using CGminer and it's a HUGE improvement over the GUIminer. I was wondering if I should stick with this miner or try another for more mh/sec?

Currently:
~630 mh/sec with 2 overclocked 24/7 5830s @950mhz top and @1000mhz bottom - ~60C top and ~50C bottom
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November 10, 2011, 07:35:54 PM
 #68

Ive tried them all I think. On a 5850, but I suspect the results apply equally to a 5830. CGminer is fastest. Bitminter is very close. Close enough that I probably wouldnt care. If you want a nice looking flashy GUI miner that launches from a website,  go bitminter. If you prefer a more powerful CLI app, with pool failover, fan control and everything, cgminer is it. No need to look elsewhere.

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November 10, 2011, 07:54:51 PM
 #69

Ive tried them all I think. On a 5850, but I suspect the results apply equally to a 5830. CGminer is fastest. Bitminter is very close. Close enough that I probably wouldnt care. If you want a nice looking flashy GUI miner that launches from a website,  go bitminter. If you prefer a more powerful CLI app, with pool failover, fan control and everything, cgminer is it. No need to look elsewhere.

Nice thanks. What about the OS? I'm currently using windows 7 b/c I'm just starting off, will I get more MH/sec if I switch to Linux Ubuntu or Mac?
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November 10, 2011, 08:03:31 PM
 #70

On ubuntu you wont be able to clock that card so high, unless you play around with a bios editor. i dont think there is a linux program that lets you exceed the hardcoded "safe" catalyst speeds. Not sure what those are for a 5830, but for a 5850 that means 775 MHz tops.
Other than that, there is very little difference.

cgminer windows 7 5850 @900 MHz = 366 MH/s
cgminer ubuntu      5850 @775 MHz = 316.8 MH/s

So on windows I get 0.4066 MH/Mh (heh, megahash per megahertz) on Linux I get 0.40877

Keeping in mind I use the windows machine for browsing and working, Id call that a wash.

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November 10, 2011, 08:06:05 PM
 #71

Im with p4man, Cgminer is simply better.

And maybe i know how to make BTC's into more BTC's that you don't. Trade secrets and all Tongue I'm underneth the iceburg Wink

Back to subject, glad that you got a bigh advantage. I use win 7 just for ease of use for this. Using mint on my netbook but dont like it. Going do a debian install with encrypted HDD and bott(kernal etc) on USB. Bit of a novice with linux but i see this as fun/challange Smiley Interesting about this lower mem clock idea. Im prbably drawing more like 2.2-.2.4, i aint measured. Guessed figures and got just below breaking even. Thats fine with me. I havnt worked for 4 years, It's a mugs game. Posh word for slavery. Just do what you need to do and look after your nearest and dearest Wink Not offence but fuck the powers that be and what evertyone else says, Only thing you can be sure about is your actions and how you deal with them. I've found mine and im very happy Tongue

I'm happy with what im doing and what ive spent on it cause its give me something do these last 3 months tbh. 1 1/2 month im off india so i really couldnt be bothered to worry about £10 here, £10 there. Hell, £100 here and there happens but shit happens. Life a gamble/risk and if you lock yourself in and do what your told its your life thats been lost Wink

Rock on the BTC's Tongue
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November 10, 2011, 08:31:45 PM
 #72

And maybe i know how to make BTC's into more BTC's that you don't. Trade secrets and all Tongue I'm underneth the iceburg Wink

I actually do know a way to double your bitcoin income, that you apparently havent discovered yet. Ill even share it with you. For free!

Turn off your miners and spend the money you saved on electricity to buy more bitcoins on exchanges. You will get twice as many! Clever huh?

Best of all, it wont hurt the bitcon cause at all and it even helps save the planet as your hashrate will be replaced by more efficient mining rigs that spend less on electricity.  If you spend those bitcoins in the economy, it will even help bitcoin rather than helping your utility provider.

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Guessed figures and got just below breaking even.

LOL. You guessed wrong. Currently no one makes a profit with your electricity rates using those GPU's. Particularly not when overclocked and overvolted. And not even with downclocked memory. Seriously?  Next you will tell me you have overclocked quad core CPUs in there too and 70% efficiency PSUs. Tell me, how long have you been mining bitcoins? Because now you make me wonder, perhaps you havent received your first utility bill yet? Sure would explain why you havent killed any cards yet. Or maybe you will only get your revised bill when you leave for India. Hey, that would explain.

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Thats fine with me. I havnt worked for 4 years, It's a mugs game. Posh word for slavery. Just do what you need to do and look after your nearest and dearest Wink Not offence but fuck the powers that be and what evertyone else says, Only thing you can be sure about is your actions and how you deal with them. I've found mine and im very happy Tongue

Perhaps you want to explore alternative hobbies like shredding pound bills or making Papier-mâché castles with them Cheesy

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Life a gamble/risk

Perhaps, but mining isnt. Its 1st grade math. All you need is a power meter and a calculator. If you plan on actually paying your bills that is.

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November 10, 2011, 09:10:02 PM
 #73

Well I built my rig for $320 and I get free electricity, O.o should I stop mining or what
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November 10, 2011, 11:14:57 PM
 #74

P4man, It really doesnt bother/concern me. I got all the bills covered and i enjoy doing it. When the 7800's drop ill be buying, No matter if the BTC drops to 1.50$ cause its about that risk element i was saying. I've only made about 200 BTC over about 3-4 month, prob bit more but i've personally handled (and used) over 5,000 BTC's in this time. So you see, theres more ways to get through life than the system/work/slavery or whatever. Why you think im jetting away end of year, maybe not to come back if all goes well. All i do is help people on here with there crap and they can take it or leave it. My personal preference with what i want to do with my assits is upto me and no one is going tell me otherwise Smiley As i say, im not a stastistic Tongue

What attracted me to BTC was the fact that there was a reason to buy hardware and push it. THe reason, the sussess of bitcoins, NOT PERSONAL PROFIT, obviously unlike yourself Wink ANd i love playing with haerdware. I've invested in tan FPGA company and will be looking into building my own cluster. THen get back to me about the price of my electricity bill Smiley
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November 11, 2011, 01:56:58 AM
 #75

P4man, It really doesnt bother/concern me. I got all the bills covered and i enjoy doing it. When the 7800's drop ill be buying, No matter if the BTC drops to 1.50$ cause its about that risk element i was saying. I've only made about 200 BTC over about 3-4 month, prob bit more but i've personally handled (and used) over 5,000 BTC's in this time. So you see, theres more ways to get through life than the system/work/slavery or whatever. Why you think im jetting away end of year, maybe not to come back if all goes well. All i do is help people on here with there crap and they can take it or leave it. My personal preference with what i want to do with my assits is upto me and no one is going tell me otherwise Smiley As i say, im not a stastistic Tongue

What attracted me to BTC was the fact that there was a reason to buy hardware and push it. THe reason, the sussess of bitcoins, NOT PERSONAL PROFIT, obviously unlike yourself Wink ANd i love playing with haerdware. I've invested in tan FPGA company and will be looking into building my own cluster. THen get back to me about the price of my electricity bill Smiley

I get free electricity, O.o should I stop mining or what
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November 11, 2011, 09:01:28 AM
 #76

There is no such thing as free electricity; someone pays for it. If you want to make money off whoever for pays it, obviously you have to keep mining.

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November 11, 2011, 02:41:04 PM
 #77

There is no such thing as free electricity; someone pays for it. If you want to make money off whoever for pays it, obviously you have to keep mining.

it's free to me Cheesy
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November 12, 2011, 02:06:59 AM
 #78

Well if we listened to tesla and used ac current we could have been using the ionsphere for all our needs, or thermoelectric thats had little to no research put into it yet is natural from the earth and abundant for our needs. Edision was business wise, Unfortunatly thats the way of the world and with the likes of roseveilts and rothchilds, What chance did tesla have. Hell, Teasla told edison all his reseach, cause he was open minded and wanted to help.

Theres no new 'genious' of my generation. Nor does there look like there will be in the next. Tim e for people to take things into there own hands and stop handing there rights over to the powers that be

RRRRAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRR lol Smiley

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November 13, 2011, 04:52:46 AM
 #79

On ubuntu you wont be able to clock that card so high, unless you play around with a bios editor. i dont think there is a linux program that lets you exceed the hardcoded "safe" catalyst speeds. Not sure what those are for a 5830, but for a 5850 that means 775 MHz tops.
Other than that, there is very little difference.

cgminer windows 7 5850 @900 MHz = 366 MH/s
cgminer ubuntu      5850 @775 MHz = 316.8 MH/s

So on windows I get 0.4066 MH/Mh (heh, megahash per megahertz) on Linux I get 0.40877

Keeping in mind I use the windows machine for browsing and working, Id call that a wash.

Depends on the card. For all the 5xxx series, installing the proprietary Catalyst drivers on Linux (I use the old version 11.6 as they work best IME) will allow overclocking as far as Windows: once configured, issue the following command:
Code:
aticonfig --od-enable --adapter=all
You may need to be root depending on whether you're logged into the X session that's running on the card or not. Use sudo if so.

Once you've enabled 'overdrive' then you can use basic commands like
Code:
aticonfig --od-setclocks=990,300 --adapter=0
on a Sapphire 5850 to get 990 MHz core and 300 MHz memory clocks. It works. My 'hero' card, which can tolerate this overclock, delivers 408 MH/sec on my config.

(FWIW, I use phoenix on my Linux miners, and with 900 MHz core clock, I get 369 - 371 MH/sec. But dick-waving contests are idiotic here, since I've tuned the hell out of the parameters to get this hash rate)

Or you can install the AMDOverdriveCtrl package (there's a precompiled .deb file available) which gives you a fancy GUI overclock, but more importantly also runs from the CLI using XML-like config files. This tool allows you to alter core voltage as well as core and memory clocks.

The difficulty is with the 69xx series cards. These are locked down in the Catalyst driver such that there is a 'hard limit' core clock, and you can only reduce the memory clock to 100 MHz less than the core clock. The only way round this is to flash the BIOS, which is very easy to do once you know how, but is a right royal pain in the arse to hardcore Mac / Linux *only* types (like me) who don't have Windows installed anywhere. The problem is that the Radeon BIOS Editor application is Windows-only.

I solved the problem by using a DOS boot flashdrive and the ATIFLASH tool to extract and flash the BIOS files. Thankfully, the guys who wrote Radeon BIOS Editor wrote it properly, and it runs happily in a virtual Windows machine (on my Macbook Air) to edit the BIOS files. Hack the files, write them back to the USB boot flashdrive, then flash the card in DOS.

A current example is the 4-card module I've just completed (time for bed, FFS!). It has two original Sapphire 5850s (I searched high and low for these - I love them - 5 heatpipes and clock really high), one Asus DirectCU II 6950 (unlocked and BIOS hacked), and a new Sapphire 5830 Extreme (which runs cool and clocks high).

I have a special Linux setup which I'll publish soon. It's sort-of Ubuntu - I start with Lubuntu, which is 'Light Ubuntu' with much lower resource demands. Then my do-it-all run-once scripts. Then tune the XML files for AMDOverdriveCtrl.

Currently the first 5850 runs 980 core, 300 mem, 1.088V, the 6950 runs 920 core, 300 mem, 1.1V, the next 5850 runs 970 core, 300 mem, 1.088V, and the 5830 runs 990 core, 300 mem, 1.1V.

It produces 1,520 MH/sec total, and draws 780W from the wall (measured, consumer-grade 'kill-a-watt', so allow for error). That's around 1.95 MH/W - I think that's pretty respectable.



And it's all done using Linux. I had to use Windows *only* to edit the 6950's BIOS and format a bootable DOS flashdrive.

So, I think you're slightly off-beam with your remarks about needing Windows for flexibility... Wink And if you're seriously stuck at OEM clocks on 5xxx series cards on Linux, then try my suggestions because you're chucking hashrate out of the window... for the same power draw, you can get a LOT more hashrate...

Linux isn't as pretty as Windows, and doesn't currently have the ability to monitor as many of the temperature diodes. But if you *really* want a restrictive system, try my Mac OS X boxes... OS X drivers are very unfriendly to overclockers, sadly.

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


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November 13, 2011, 09:22:50 AM
 #80

You are correct. I was under the impression this was a "linux wide" limitation as I was unable to overclock beyond 775 on 5850s on ubuntu and couldnt find any app that would let me.

Silly me. I had already switched to LinuxCoin a while ago and assumed the same limits. But nope, I just bumped my 5870 to 1 GHz and my 5850 to 900 Mhz (speeds I know to be stable in windows) and it seems to work fine.

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