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Author Topic: Bitmain introduces the Antminer S17 Pro, Antminer S17, and the Antminer T17  (Read 9045 times)
OgNasty
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March 19, 2019, 08:45:51 AM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 01:24:29 AM by OgNasty
Merited by suchmoon (9)
 #1

We’re excited to announce the soon to come Antminer S17 Pro, Antminer S17, and the Antminer T17. Bitmain’s 3 most advanced BTC and BCH miners under the SHA256 algorithm. Stay tuned for more updates!





S17 Pro Announced Specs









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March 19, 2019, 10:03:44 AM
 #2

Bitmain is showing their cards. They will be releasing their new ASICs in time for everyone's next anticipation for the next bull market. Very smart. Cool


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March 19, 2019, 12:56:13 PM
 #3

The Z11 was sold out immediately, so maybe they will open second batch soon.

To me, it is highly suspicious that they released another news about s17 few hours after microBT released their M20 for sale. Just pure marketing to me and therefore we should not see S17 coming in a near future. Maybe May-June is more probable.
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March 19, 2019, 01:02:46 PM
Last edit: March 20, 2019, 03:02:29 AM by frodocooper
 #4

I don't see any specs for bitmain. I see specs for Whatsminer.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 19, 2019, 01:22:50 PM
Merited by suchmoon (9), frodocooper (2), OgNasty (1), Steamtyme (1)
 #5

Antminer S17 Pro... That would explain the scam email I got this morning from the email address presale at bitmainstech.com (notice the s in the middle) with the subject "limited non Public Preorder - S17-2".  Watch out folks!

I have seen these type of emails before with a PDF attachment order form complete with Scan QR-Codes claiming the following specs:

Code:
Antminer S17-2 with Power
adapter included
2x BM1397 chip (33.7J/TH)
Hash Rate: 67.4TH +-5%
Power Consumption: 1394w using Bitmain APW7 1800W
Dimensions: 240mm(L) x 187mm(W) x 288mm(H)
Weight: 7.1g
Network Connection: Ethernet

$1299USD with Free DHL Shipping

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March 19, 2019, 03:33:04 PM
Last edit: March 20, 2019, 03:03:50 AM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #6

I don't see any specs for bitmain. I see specs for Whatsminer.

I don't see any working model of either of them. I am not defending bitmain, but waiting 4 months seems a little irrational to me.
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March 19, 2019, 04:51:17 PM
Last edit: March 20, 2019, 03:04:57 AM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #7

I don't see any working model of either of them. I am not defending bitmain, but waiting 4 months seems a little irrational to me.

absolute truth

a 4 month preorder is nuts.

sometimes I hate the internet as writing what you mean is hard to do.

I see info (specs)  that is clear and easy to understand on the m20
I see no info on the s17 (specs)

is all I mean.

I do not mean you should do a four month preorder of the m20.
For that matter you should not do a four month preorder of the s17

In fact you should not do preorders beyond 45 days.
I did order 1 t15 due to ship on April 1-10  basically I was curious  to compare it to a s15 which I have.

and it had a coupon and in theory was under the trump tax number.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 19, 2019, 05:45:45 PM
 #8

With BTC in the consolidation phase and a potential price war looming between Bitmain and Whatsminer, I would agree that preordering might not be in the buyer's best interests.

If the alleged specs are right on the S17 though, it would be hard to justify mining with anything else once the time comes for these to start shipping.

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March 26, 2019, 12:53:14 AM
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #9

Some Chinese miners have already started talking about S17 being released next month, these guys are usually pretty accurate at least with the release date, they also dropped S9 price with psu from 395$ to 271$ for April delivery.

I am almost certain that next month will be the release of these monsters.

The S17 is expected to do 42TH at 1500w
S17 pro is expected to do  48TH at 1550w

The numbers on S17 seem very reasonable, in fact even 44th at 1500w is doable, not sure about the pro,it's a bit too much IMO. but let's see how it goes, will keep you updated if i get any confirmed information.

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March 26, 2019, 03:53:56 AM
Merited by frodocooper (2)
 #10

Just pure marketing to me and therefore we should not see S17 coming in a near future. Maybe May-June is more probable.

You know you are running on crypto time when 60-90 days from now ISN'T the 'near future'.  Wink

Since this is the speculation thread, I would speculate that initial yields on the new 7nm chips will be so low that the machines won't be available in any significant qnties for many months. Not crypto many, but real many. So I would not be too concerned about any sort of big difficulty jump. A couple thousand machines will barely be a rounding error and a lot of them will likely go to replace older gear. The first batch for pre-order will probably get the best chips from the first tape out as well, and will also be the most expensive.

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March 26, 2019, 09:57:55 AM
 #11

You know 7nm is not new to bitmain right? They have been playing with those for months now, i do not think production will be much limited, its more or less the price of both gears and btc that could get in the way of them selling the gears.

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March 27, 2019, 05:39:43 AM
Last edit: March 27, 2019, 11:05:51 PM by frodocooper
 #12

But we can probably assume bitmain will do what they have done in the past. Which is set frequency slightly better than the competition for a slightly better price. Then overtime release revised versions unlocking more speed.

But that is speculation and I didn't have my toast this morning.

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March 27, 2019, 05:39:59 AM
Merited by frodocooper (2)
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You know 7nm is not new to bitmain right? They have been playing with those for months now, i do not think production will be much limited, its more or less the price of both gears and btc that could get in the way of them selling the gears.

The rumors were that the Gen 1 7nm process had terrible yields and that bitmain only had enough good chips to build a few thousand S15's, and due to the low yields they had to sell the machines below cost. It might be true. That would certainly explain the purchase restrictions on the first few batches, and short period of time they were available for shipment. I would imagine that the yields on the gen 2 chips will be at least as bad. For all the Gen 1 7nm they shipped, the network hashrate is still below were it was mid-Nov, and has probably been supported in large part by keeping older gear running via all the dyscalculia suffers that bought up those BitDeer contracts. But we shall see. If the price makes sense, and the specs pan out in the real, I'll be picking up a few S17's for the farm. If. When. Maybe.

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March 28, 2019, 05:50:55 PM
Last edit: March 29, 2019, 11:04:27 AM by frodocooper
 #14

The rumors were that the Gen 1 7nm process had terrible yields and that bitmain only had enough good chips to build a few thousand S15's, and due to the low yields they had to sell the machines below cost. It might be true. That would certainly explain the purchase restrictions on the first few batches, and short period of time they were available for shipment. I would imagine that the yields on the gen 2 chips will be at least as bad. For all the Gen 1 7nm they shipped, the network hashrate is still below were it was mid-Nov, and has probably been supported in large part by keeping older gear running via all the dyscalculia suffers that bought up those BitDeer contracts. But we shall see. If the price makes sense, and the specs pan out in the real, I'll be picking up a few S17's for the farm. If. When. Maybe.

That is funny.

BitDeer is pretty much fully written for bitmain's benefit.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 29, 2019, 01:48:21 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 12:35:41 AM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #15

We have our release date. April 9th.


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March 29, 2019, 01:53:47 PM
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Some Chinese miners have already started talking about S17 being released next month, these guys are usually pretty accurate at least with the release date, they also dropped S9 price with psu from 395$ to 271$ for April delivery.

I am almost certain that next month will be the release of these monsters.

The S17 is expected to do 42TH at 1500w
S17 pro is expected to do  48TH at 1550w

The numbers on S17 seem very reasonable, in fact even 44th at 1500w is doable, not sure about the pro,it's a bit too much IMO. but let's see how it goes, will keep you updated if i get any confirmed information.

Hmm, so If specs are true. S15 and T15 buyers are fucked up again. Huge different on same 7nm chip. I hope Bitmain will release some good firmware for S15/T15 which will increase performance.
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March 29, 2019, 03:11:27 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 12:36:26 AM by frodocooper
 #17

We have our release date. April 9th.

https://i.imgur.com/sfIfdhi.jpg

A link to image please.

I found this on youtube.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bitmain+s17&view=detail&mid=256B40F77CCCCE279986256B40F77CCCCE279986&FORM=VIRE

but I think it is not accurate

found this https://www.biedex.com/bitmain-unveils-release-date-of-next-gen-antminer-s17-devices/

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March 29, 2019, 03:32:25 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 12:37:16 AM by frodocooper
 #18

Hmm, so If specs are true. S15 and T15 buyers are fucked up again. Huge different on same 7nm chip. I hope Bitmain will release some good firmware for S15/T15 which will increase performance.

At some point something better than the S17 will come and the cycle repeats again. S15, S11, S9, S7. Everytime a new generation comes, this story repeats. More surprising is you didn't expect this after so many years of the same. You could go back to the days of CPU mining, then GPU mining, FPGAs, the first ASICs, etc.

More importantly at these rates we are talking 32 watt/th the S17 (7nm)... vs 47 watt/th the M20 (12nm) or 60 watt/th for the S15 (7nm) vs 70 watt/th the M10(16nm). Also take into consideration that Bitmain specs are probably better than reality, we will have to wait for an actual review from members of this forum.

MicroBT is still at 12nm, they could probably still make something even better at 7nm. Frankly if the S11 and S15 are 7nm parts, they are quite disappointing, considering a 16nm chip nearly matched them. Maybe they planned to finance the refinement by selling those low yield units first, or maybe there is an S19 lurking around the corner, how to know?

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March 29, 2019, 04:26:46 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 12:38:07 AM by frodocooper
 #19

At some point something better than the S17 will come and the cycle repeats again. S15, S11, S9, S7. Everytime a new generation comes, this story repeats. More surprising is you didn't expect this after so many years of the same. You could go back to the days of CPU mining, then GPU mining, FPGAs, the first ASICs, etc.

More importantly at these rates we are talking 32 watt/th... vs 47 watt/th the M20 (12nm) or 60 watt/th for the S15 vs 70 watt/th the M10(16nm). Also take into consideration that Bitmain specs are probably better than reality, we will have to wait for an actual review from members of this forum.

MicroBT is still at 12nm, they could probably still make something even better at 7nm. Frankly if the S11 and S15 are 7nm parts, they are quite disappointing, considering a 16nm chip nearly matched them. Maybe they planned to finance the refinement by selling those low yield units first, or maybe there is an S19 lurking around the corner, how to know?

my thoughts are :

the s15  does  

50 watts a th on low speed
60 watts a th on high speed

a 28% improvement =

36 watts a th on low speed
43.2 watts a th on high speed

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 29, 2019, 07:08:32 PM
 #20

Hmm, so If specs are true. S15 and T15 buyers are fucked up again. Huge different on same 7nm chip. I hope Bitmain will release some good firmware for S15/T15 which will increase performance.

Keyword there is "again" s17 buyers will have to face the sane story a few months later, it has always been this way, lucky mining btc is less risky than alts, look at z11 improvements over z9, or look at x11 asics, it is even worse.

I have come to realise that the best asic is the one the ROIs faster regardless of effiecny , new gens will always most likely always have a longer ROI period.

Having said that we are uncertain of how many gears they will have to sell at this current low btc prices, they are now totally out of stock of all btc miners , not sure if production is slowing down or they are just fucking around.

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March 29, 2019, 07:56:31 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 12:39:07 AM by frodocooper
 #21

... not sure if production is slowing down or they are just fucking around.

Hashrate is low compared to Oct 4

so lets pretend there are tons and tons of new gear in the hands of the big farms.

big farms run at 5 cents or better.

So I would say so far not that much gear is out there.

since 5 cent power turns a profit for any gear under 85 watts a th

that means the s9 set to lowest settings turns a profit of 59 to 66 cents a day at 5 cents
the m10 on high turns a profit of  2.40 a day
the s15 on high turns a profit of 2.64 a day
the t3 on high  turns a profit  of 4.17 a day

so 5 cent power still works  for even the s9  my guess is  there are not a lot of m10's s15's t3's out there.

or  a lot of s9's are fully shut down at higher cost locations.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 29, 2019, 08:25:11 PM
 #22

I strongly agree phill, i did make a rough estimation on how many s15 are out there based on coupons circulation, someone said it was way off and far from accurate, tho i dare anyone to show me say 500 s15 coupons , while there are hundreds of thousands of s9 coupons out there, i have yet to find a single chinese supplier with say 1000 s15 for sale, everything points out to the fact that all the 7nm gears from bitmain did not have any high sales value, be it a production issue or economical limitation , that is something i do not know.   

Long story short, major farms have either left the game or still run profitable on old gears, the new gen miners are being sold in small quantities to people with super high power rate and very small scale business.

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March 29, 2019, 09:00:28 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 12:39:38 AM by frodocooper
 #23

I have 20 s9's doing about 250th and around 22kwatts  set to medium and to low

if they were all s17 I could do  15 x 44 = 660th and around 24kwatts

So I do think  the gear has not been sold in high amounts yet.  and yet means a lot.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 29, 2019, 09:48:47 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 12:40:25 AM by frodocooper
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #24

Hmm, so If specs are true. S15 and T15 buyers are fucked up again. Huge different on same 7nm chip. I hope Bitmain will release some good firmware for S15/T15 which will increase performance.

I mean I remember I bought my 2015 Corvette...and every year since then Chevy has had the gall to produce a newer one. I hope i get an ECU patch that gives me free upgrades too!

P.S. The S17 uses a different chip than the S15

S15 = BM1391
S17 = BM1397

Direct blog quote from Bitmain:

Quote from: Bitmain
The new BM1397 chip requires lower power and can offer an energy consumption to computing ratio as low as 30J/TH. This is a 28.6 percent improvement in power efficiency in comparison with Bitmain’s previous 7nm chip, the BM1391.
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March 29, 2019, 10:15:59 PM
 #25

I have 20 s9's doing about 250th and around 22kwatts  set to medium and to low
if they were all s17 I could do  15 x 44 = 660th and around 24kwatts

yup but you know those 15*s17 would cost you something close to 25k if not more , with that amount you can get about 90 s9s brand new 1290th ( almost double the hashrate) of course this excludes electricity factor.

that's why it's different for everyone, for someone like me who has free but limited power it makes no sense to be paying a fortune for S17, not even S11 justifies the cost, but the math will be totally different for someone who pays 10 cents per kwh and planning to have 5 gears in the basement.

i think in a few years when btc market become pretty stable and these mining giants get very close to fully utilizing the chips, and
when a 5% improvements is spoken of for a month, only then it will make sense to stay as close to the latest gear as possible, as for now to me it's always about getting your investment back ASAP and not worry much about what could happen afterwards.

not sure how others make their mining plans, would love to hear thoughts.

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March 30, 2019, 12:17:10 AM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 12:40:53 AM by frodocooper
 #26

but I am power capped and that is what makes new gear attractive to me.

of course I turn a profit on those 20 s9's and I do not have to rush to buy 15 s17's  just one for evaluation works for me.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 31, 2019, 08:26:32 AM
Last edit: March 31, 2019, 08:39:01 AM by gmaxwell
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #27

I hope everyone who gives a darn about Bitcoin avoids doing business with Bitmain in the future. Bitmain has been a long standing bad actor in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. We shouldn't forget this just because they replaced their CEO.  As far as I know they have done nothing to undo the damage they've caused or otherwise make amends.  We can see by their continued open source license violations in their products that they haven't changed.

I will award merit to every post that makes a compelling statement against buying from bitmain.
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March 31, 2019, 01:04:36 PM
Last edit: April 01, 2019, 12:40:48 AM by frodocooper
Merited by gmaxwell (10), frodocooper (3)
 #28

I hope everyone who gives a darn about Bitcoin avoids doing business with Bitmain in the future. Bitmain has been a long standing bad actor in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. We shouldn't forget this just because they replaced their CEO.  As far as I know they have done nothing to undo the damage they've caused or otherwise make amends.  We can see by their continued open source license violations in their products that they haven't changed.

I will award merit to every post that makes a compelling statement against buying from bitmain.

Interesting offer.
I prefer my eight m10's over my 1 s15.
I just spent 2048 usd to preorder the M20 V1 72th 3312 watts.
Having opened and examined s15 pcb board  and M10 pcb board the m10's are built better.
That is why I pushed buying M10's over s15's.

Bitmain runs bitdeer and bitdeer is wrong.  it is terrible worse then hashnest which was also terrible.  I have a degree in accounting and my single biggest issue is no one audits bitdeer.  It is not that it is a ponzi it is that  no one gets to know which machine  is mining for you and that smacks of fraud.

How would you like to pay  for the s15  and its  60 watts a th cost  when in fact they are using a s17 with firmware mods  spending only 40 watts a th.  They simply don't address this.

so why help them by buying gear from them

the price for

s17 power is  6.68 cents a th or 6.45  reads two ways on the site or changed while I typed
s15 power is   9.70 cents a th   so there is zero audit done and an easy 3 cents a th a day to be stolen that is more then 3000 usd a day for 100ph of contracts

this is the single biggest reason to not support them.
as they do it right in front of your eyes with no shame  ie  what do they do behind the scenes when they  do this right in your face


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March 31, 2019, 06:12:15 PM
 #29

So once all the March coupons expire tonight, then there will be miners again for sale on Bitmain's site, is that the deal?  Everything but the DR5 is sold out still, only hours until all those coupons expire.
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March 31, 2019, 06:20:39 PM
Merited by OgNasty (1), philipma1957 (1)
 #30

So once all the March coupons expire tonight, then there will be miners again for sale on Bitmain's site, is that the deal?  Everything but the DR5 is sold out still, only hours until all those coupons expire.

Most likely, yeah.

Those coupon notification e-mails are really pissing me off.

I say Fuck their coupon policy.

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April 01, 2019, 02:15:43 AM
Merited by gmaxwell (20), frodocooper (5), philipma1957 (2)
 #31

I hope everyone who gives a darn about Bitcoin avoids doing business with Bitmain in the future. Bitmain has been a long standing bad actor in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. We shouldn't forget this just because they replaced their CEO.  As far as I know they have done nothing to undo the damage they've caused or otherwise make amends.  We can see by their continued open source license violations in their products that they haven't changed.

I will award merit to every post that makes a compelling statement against buying from bitmain.

They tried (and failed) to block access to the S11/S15 (if i recall correctly) via SSH, i think they didn't like someone making a full open source firmware replacement for the S9, that uses actual cgminer instead of bmminer...

I have also been following the products released by MicroBT, and have been rooting for them. Their 16nm part (the M10) was already nearly as efficient as Bitmain's 7nm part. Now they have a 12nm product, the M20, which is looking seriously efficient already. Can you imagine what they can do at 7nm?

Lets not forget about Jihan Wu's attempt to seize Bitcoin, by rejecting Segwit and promoting giant blocks which ended in the creation of two altcoins nobody wanted, but hurt the market (and ironically his company)...

And then there are the pools. It was bad already that they had one large pool, but why 3? or is it 4? Antpool, btc.com, viabtc... when you use those pools you are benefiting Bitmain one way or the other, yet there is way too much people who don't seem to care. Could it be because its the default in their miners?

Does anyone remember the covert asicboost drama? and the rumors of them using it indoors? They always denied it, until overt asicboost became real, somehow their S9 models could do it, but not their previous models. So the rumor was proven correct after months of denial...

Of course there are several reasons not to pick a Bitmain product, more importantly the Asic market is weakened by that behemoth. I understand that a former Bitmain employee went to MicroBT, the Asic designer? Somehow i think both Bitmain and Canaan copied the PSU driving things at 20v with metal rails directly attached to the boards from MicroBT, but that's just my speculation...

For me, MicroBT should be the preferred choice, but keep an eye to Canaan Creative, which needs to lower prices to be more attractive.

Many people are now angry with Bitmain for the sudden release of slightly improved versions, and then removing the "old" ones from their shop, making their investment sound pointless. Ie: the S11, the S15, now the S17. Is there a slightly improved S19 lurking around the corner? Will you commit 2k or more USD just to find out you bought an already obsolete model? Well we should be nearing the peak efficiency for 7nm parts, but i think MicroBT will win once they release something at 7nm.

Bitmain also has a strange business with those coupons. Not happy with making an alt (or two), they also instigated a parallel market of coupons. Why are they issuing those coupons in such quantities, that people are now more interested in trading than using?

I also remember their ability to disable miners remotely, there was a little scandal about this "feature", which was later "removed" (upgraded?).

Another one is the fact that the miners are set to mine to a Bitmain Antpool account by default, so any "tests" give extra profit for them. Wasn't there a class suit action going on because of it? Of course if you reset the settings, this returns.

In the end its just like the pools. If you keep using (their) large pools, you are weakening the whole thing. So by buying their products you also weaken their competitors. If competition disappears, and they consolidate a monopoly, we are going to be in trouble. They would ask outrageous prices, and give very poor customer satisfaction, because once you are the last one standing you can dictate your terms to others.

Oh almost forgot, why the heck does Bitmain owns not one, but TWO cloud mining services? I don't think i need to talk here about cloud mining, they are pure money waste, if not outright scam. Stay away from them...

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April 01, 2019, 05:01:48 PM
 #32

So far I have gotten mixed information.  One contact says one version "assuming pro" is 67th.  Another s17 is 50th, and another is 45th.  So... no clue what the hell to think lol
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April 01, 2019, 05:08:13 PM
Last edit: April 02, 2019, 03:57:10 PM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #33

Does anyone remember the covert asicboost drama? and the rumors of them using it indoors? They always denied it, until overt asicboost became real, somehow their S9 models could do it, but not their previous models. So the rumor was proven correct after months of denial...

Wrong. Bitmains covert AB was never used on the main BTC network. That is a very different thing than the chips having the circuits in them but never turned on. BM never said anything about if the chips have AB circuits in them, they just said it was never ran outside of TestNet.

When any sort of AB is used it changes the block version number and NO blocks ever show that change before Dragonmints came online.

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April 01, 2019, 07:15:21 PM
 #34

Why do I remember the whole covert AB drama being that the covert piece was that their AB allowed them to do so without a different version number? And that SegWit would make this covert version incompatible and thus their vehement opposition to that prop?

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April 02, 2019, 01:52:27 AM
Merited by gmaxwell (10), sarcheer (2), OgNasty (1)
 #35

Wrong. Bitmains covert AB was never used on the main BTC network. That is a very different thing than the chips having the circuits in them but never turned on. BM never said anything about if the chips have AB circuits in them, they just said it was never ran outside of TestNet.

When any sort of AB is used it changes the block version number and NO blocks ever show that change before Dragonmints came online.

That is incorrect. Covert AsicBoost does not use version rolling, but instead uses a method called "merkle grinding." Merkle grinding does not produce different block version numbers like version rolling does, hence its "covert" label. Gregory Maxwell described this method in much greater detail here.

We do not know with absolute certainty whether Bitmain used covert AsicBoost on Bitcoin's mainnet. There are signs that suggest they did. For example, merkle grinding tends to produce empty blocks, and Bitmain's pools do have a notorious history of mining empty blocks. Also, covert AsicBoost is incompatible with segwit, and we know that Bitmain did everything they could to prevent segwit's activation on Bitcoin. But beyond those signs, currently the only way to conclude that Bitmain did not use covert AsicBoost on Bitcoin's mainnet is by taking their word for it.
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April 02, 2019, 03:58:43 PM
 #36

Quote
That is incorrect. Covert AsicBoost does not use version rolling, but instead uses a method called "merkle grinding." Merkle grinding does not produce different block version numbers like version rolling does, hence its "covert" label. Gregory Maxwell described this method in much greater detail here.
Then I stand corrected. Maxwell's doc bookmarked for future reference.

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April 03, 2019, 12:04:25 AM
Last edit: April 03, 2019, 12:48:36 AM by frodocooper
 #37

Much like hashnest and bitdeer their covert asic boost allowed for the action to happen.

So add hashnest bitdeer covert asic boost all may have been acts of fraud with no proof they were not doing it and the ability to do it.

Lastly if you read my thread that is stickied in pools I have certain proof that the high tx fee issue being done in 2017 was intentionally and that bitmain had the ability to do it and turn a profit.

Someone did it just not sure that bitmain did it. The proof of it being done was clearly shown in that thread.

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April 03, 2019, 12:45:09 AM
 #38

Quote
That is incorrect. Covert AsicBoost does not use version rolling, but instead uses a method called "merkle grinding." Merkle grinding does not produce different block version numbers like version rolling does, hence its "covert" label. Gregory Maxwell described this method in much greater detail here.
Then I stand corrected. Maxwell's doc bookmarked for future reference.
With 'merkle grinding' no one will use it.

Odd how gmaxwell in his "Wed Apr 5 21:37:45 UTC 2017" message goes on about:
Quote
Reverse engineering of a particular mining chip has demonstrated
conclusively that ASICBOOST has been implemented
in hardware.

The odd part being that I posted about the S9 having asicboost in July 2016 in the S9 hardware thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1493601.msg15634328#msg15634328

I guess he lives in his own little world and doesn't take note of what's going on.
Like segwit ... the great solution to Bitcoin ... that has yet again failed in the last 24 hours to do what it should with transactions ...

They should have implemented BIP100 like over 70% of miners voted for with their coinbases.

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April 03, 2019, 01:47:37 AM
 #39

So I assume no one has any info on these s17's yet?
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April 03, 2019, 01:54:55 AM
 #40

So I assume no one has any info on these s17's yet?

No  rumor is April 9th   with more then one set of numbers  a normal model and  a pro model.

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April 03, 2019, 03:18:45 PM
Last edit: April 04, 2019, 12:10:45 AM by frodocooper
 #41

No  rumor is April 9th   with more then one set of numbers  a normal model and  a pro model.

Well ahah I wouldn't say that's a rumor, we know this already Cheesy.
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April 04, 2019, 07:44:58 AM
Last edit: April 04, 2019, 08:02:51 AM by gmaxwell
Merited by frodocooper (5)
 #42

Bitmains covert AB was never used on the main BTC network.
They claim this, but the claim seems kind of absurd. The whole point of covert is that it's cover, it's nearly impossible to detect.

Consider though: at great expense they developed an significant performance optimization and baked it into their chips, huge numbers of which they ran themselves ... and then kept it secret but ... just didn't use it?  Why? because they like giving money away to the power company?

There is evidence that bitmain was asicboosting: among other things (Edit: e.g. as frodo mentions, the huge number of empty blocks, which have more or less magically gone away), they mined a small number of blocks that were invalid because transactions were out of dependency order. This would be a pretty difficult mistake to make-- unless you were grinding blocks by swapping around transaction order.  It's just not conclusive proof, unfortunately short of some massive internal document leak conclusive proof is likely impossible.

[Edit: The empty block part is really strong because unlike any other case you can compute the collisions for the empty blocks arbitrarily far in advance, so even if takes you tens of seconds to find one on the FPGA you can keep mining until one is found.]

Of course, there is also no reason to think that bitmain was the only booster.  I think its very interesting that the bitmain funded developers of bcash pushed surprisingly hard for their "canonical transaction order" change shortly after bitmain published overt AB support for their existing hardware... Might well be that once covert boosting wasn't an advantage it was best for overt supporters kill it on bcash in order to disrupt any miners whos hardware was less flexible than Bitmain's. (Because Bitmain used a rather overpowered FPGA for control they could switch between covert/overt/no-ab with just a firmware change... it would have been more power efficient though to have a separate asic for collision finding, but such a design might result in devices that lose half their hashrate when used with a mandatory transaction order or otherwise have to only mine empty blocks...)

The odd part being that I posted about the S9 having asicboost in July 2016 in the S9 hardware thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1493601.msg15634328#msg15634328

I guess he lives in his own little world and doesn't take note of what's going on.

Wow. No, I completely hadn't seen that-- I mean it was buried deep in a thread about a vendor who's hardware I didn't have at the time, and didn't mention asicboost in the post... all the details were in a pdf... I wouldn't be surprised if almost no one ever read it.  Too bad, because that was a pretty big revelation. Kudos to you.   It would have saved me an astonishing amount of time if I'd been aware of it.  (in particular figuring out the how to use the multi-midstate with no actual docs on the chip but simply picking through the software and bus captures with unreliable information extracted from the chip design was a big chore).  

As an aside, given that you knew this-- how come when I announced it and so many people were saying that I was lying about it being there, you didn't step up to point it out? Sad
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April 04, 2019, 08:51:47 AM
Last edit: April 07, 2019, 11:48:37 PM by frodocooper
 #43

... As an aside, given that you knew this-- how come when I announced it and so many people were saying that I was lying about it being there, you didn't step up to point it out? Sad

I posted it in the S9 thread about the S9 ... which is where it should have been.
Alas your claims about the S9 should have been posted in the same place.

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April 04, 2019, 09:40:19 AM
 #44

...
As an aside, given that you knew this-- how come when I announced it and so many people were saying that I was lying about it being there, you didn't step up to point it out? Sad
I posted it in the S9 thread about the S9 ... which is where it should have been.
Yes, I'm referring to later, not so kind of you to sit quietly amid all those claims that I was lying... when you could have instead happily bragged that you knew all along. Smiley  Oh well! I forgive you.

Quote
Alas your claims about the S9 should have been posted in the same place ... ...
AFAIK I never posted about it on bitcointalk at all... perhaps if I had, I might have posted on the S9 thread. (although most of my testing was actually on an R4 and parts from R4s Smiley...)
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April 04, 2019, 05:04:12 PM
Last edit: April 04, 2019, 07:38:15 PM by philipma1957
 #45

So basically

1)bitmain had and still has the ability to cheat on hashnest. edit bitmain may not own  hashnest anymore
2)bitmain had and still has the ability to cheat on bitdeer.
3)bitmain had the ability to use its covert asicboost.
4)bitmain and others had the ability to manipulate the tx fees as per this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2634505.0

and not only did that ability exist I had concrete evidence that  was being done by various pools back in 2017

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 04, 2019, 06:37:19 PM
Merited by frodocooper (2)
 #46

So basically

1)bitmain had and still has the ability to cheat on hashnest.
2)bitmain had and still has the ability to cheat on bitdeer.
3)bitmain had the ability to use its covert asicboost.
4)bitmain and others had the ability to manipulate the tx fees as per this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2634505.0

and not only did that ability exist I had concrete evidence that  was being done by various pools back in 2017

Bitmain apparently no longer owns HashNest (BitDeer is owned by Bitmain). I was talking with the HashNest admins. They are still in close business relationship but are no longer the same company.

Also HashNest has been updated recently with new miners, S15 is out and they just launched Z11 preorder for end of the month
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April 04, 2019, 07:36:42 PM
Last edit: April 05, 2019, 12:20:15 AM by frodocooper
 #47

Bitmain apparently no longer owns HashNest (BitDeer is owned by Bitmain). I was talking with the HashNest admins. They are still in close business relationship but are no longer the same company.

Also HashNest has been updated recently with new miners, S15 is out and they just launched Z11 preorder for end of the month

Okay I will change it to had and not present tense.

Now even with all my points made to not use bitmain s17 or s17 pro

including that they took all my coupons away on march 31st.

I will buy 1 s17 and 1 s17 pro to demo to community.

I do plan to not buy more then that and go with the m20's

But I will have
1 s17
1 s17 pro
1 s15
1 t15
1 a1021
1 a921
8 m10's
10-20 m20's by sept 1

part of the buys are to show the gear to forum and on you tube.

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April 04, 2019, 08:53:50 PM
Last edit: April 05, 2019, 12:23:32 AM by frodocooper
 #48

So basically

1)bitmain had and still has the ability to cheat on hashnest. edit bitmain may not own  hashnest anymore
2)bitmain had and still has the ability to cheat on bitdeer.
3)bitmain had the ability to use its covert asicboost.
4)bitmain and others had the ability to manipulate the tx fees as per this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2634505.0

and not only did that ability exist I had concrete evidence that  was being done by various pools back in 2017

Less conspiracy theories and more provable facts please.
Like your withholding conspiracy theory, trying to play up some conspiracy theory you have without providing any actual proof.

The S9 chips have had Overt AB in them, that has recently (Nov) been activated by Bitmain's firmware upgrade.
However, you would have seen MANY of these "Block Version" blocks with this since 2016 if Bitmain was using the Overt AB they have in the chips.
So clearly they didn't do that, since they have always been a large % of the Bitcoin network, so it would be blatantly obvious.

So Bitmain DID release the firmware to everyone that uses Overt AB at the same time as they started using it themselves.

...and see below ...

They claim this, but the claim seems kind of absurd. The whole point of covert is that it's cover, it's nearly impossible to detect.

Consider though: at great expense they developed an significant performance optimization and baked it into their chips, huge numbers of which they ran themselves ... and then kept it secret but ... just didn't use it?  Why? because they like giving money away to the power company?

There is evidence that bitmain was asicboosting: among other things (Edit: e.g. as frodo mentions, the huge number of empty blocks, which have more or less magically gone away), they mined a small number of blocks that were invalid because transactions were out of dependency order. This would be a pretty difficult mistake to make-- unless you were grinding blocks by swapping around transaction order.  It's just not conclusive proof, unfortunately short of some massive internal document leak conclusive proof is likely impossible.

[Edit: The empty block part is really strong because unlike any other case you can compute the collisions for the empty blocks arbitrarily far in advance, so even if takes you tens of seconds to find one on the FPGA you can keep mining until one is found.]

Ignoring the rest of the conspiracy theories after the quote above ...

Empty blocks are only seen shortly after a block change.
You can thank your favourite pal LukeJr for that idea - he was the first to do it due to high orphan rates, due to running a crappy pool, and then pools like F2Pool and Bitmain copied him and expanded on it to do SPV mining (which is how F2Pool and AntPool together lost a total of 6 blocks in 2013)

Due to others (and my) 'blow up' of the empty block issue, they now send out more work soon after the block change to minise the number of empty blocks.
Almost ALL the large pools STILL produce empty blocks (slush included)
That hasn't changed, but only the NUMBER of those empty blocks on ALL those pools has reduced.

Your theory pretty much is saying that Bitmain runs every large pool Tongue

Edit: I should add, in case it's not obvious, if Bitmain decided to use Covert AB only 5% of the time - the first work sent out after a block change - then updated to a full block in the next work - that would be more unlikely than any other theory. Since only finding empty blocks shortly after a block change directly implies that Covert AB would only be used 5% of the mining time ... so rather pointless.

Yes, I'm referring to later, not so kind of you to sit quietly amid all those claims that I was lying... when you could have instead happily bragged that you knew all along. Smiley  Oh well! I forgive you.

I only post/read here, I don't have a reddit account.
The only time I end up on reddit is searching about anime and the rare link from here in something I read Smiley

Edit: fun Smiley I just read that link. CW is a retard who cleary was never Satoshi - Satoshi's posts are so obviously different to CW that is not even possible.
You (and Gavin), on the other hand, post more like Satoshi than anyone else who was around early Tongue

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April 07, 2019, 02:06:38 AM
 #49

Empty blocks are only seen shortly after a block change.
Bitmain was producing them minutes after a block change, and was producing-- prior to the blow up about covert AB-- upwards of 10% empty.

Quote
Your theory pretty much is saying that Bitmain runs every large pool Tongue
Not at all, however Jihan directly claimed as much to me.  I think it was largely but not entirely bluster, they very clearly ran several that in public they claimed were "independent".

Quote
Edit: I should add, in case it's not obvious, if Bitmain decided to use Covert AB only 5% of the time - the first work sent out after a block change -

I think you may misunderstand what is being claimed there: It takes time to find the collisions needed for covert AB.   When a block change happens, what do you do when you don't have a collision?   You mine an empty block where the collision has been precomputed, as that takes no time at all.   Once you find a collision with transactions you switch to that.  Sometimes finding a collision takes a rather long time, because you get unlucky.

I agree that it's speculative: the extremely high rate of very late empty blocks could also be attributed to poorly run software and there is plenty of evidence of that.  Bitmain controlled pools producing blocks that were invalid because of out of order transactions, where the tx order is what bitcoind would produce but swapped at some interior node in the hash tree is a lot harder to explain.
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April 07, 2019, 04:01:36 AM
Last edit: April 07, 2019, 11:47:58 PM by frodocooper
 #50

Bitmain was producing them minutes after a block change, and was producing-- prior to the blow up about covert AB-- upwards of 10% empty...

I guess I'll have to spend some time and check this ...

... since they've had Overt AB in the chips for years and no obvious large amount of Overt AB blocks on the network until they release the Overt firmware (before that was a 'small' amount by Dragon T1s which you can see the difference due to the different bits used)

I know James, with a little of -ck's help, did attempt to use (what is now called) AB in the miners after they came out ... but no idea if he used it long term, or if it was Covert or Overt

So if BM's been using Covert AB for years until the Overt firmware was released, the late empty blocks would be pretty obvious ...
I guess I can check that with a little code since I have the debug.log files for every server I've ever run since ... forever Smiley

... but I certainly don't remember seeing a lot of late empty blocks ...
... and the block header times mean nothing, it's when the blocks arrived, which I DO have that information from many server logs.

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April 07, 2019, 04:20:53 AM
 #51

No word on s17 pro specs or price yet?  Seems like everyone knows the s17 but no one has a clue on the pro version
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April 07, 2019, 04:25:15 AM
 #52

I know I should wait, but I can’t help but feel like I’m going to be ordering one of these right away.

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April 07, 2019, 10:30:16 AM
 #53

I know I should wait, but I can’t help but feel like I’m going to be ordering one of these right away.

Well, someone needs to review one for the community... I hope the thing can still be flashed with something open like Braiins OS, hoping the team of that project manages to port it and find "a means" to install it. But i guess it will depend in how much Bitmain "secured" it.

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April 07, 2019, 10:43:51 AM
 #54

I won't buy a S17, and as we know how generous Bitmain is with reviewers, that probably means no S17 review by me.

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April 07, 2019, 01:13:12 PM
 #55

30-35w/th is pretty impressive.  I hate bitmain but I most likely will be upgrading some btc mining gear for this miner.
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April 07, 2019, 03:18:08 PM
Last edit: April 07, 2019, 11:50:05 PM by frodocooper
 #56

I will purchase 1 of each to review.

As for

30-35w/th

It won't be that good.

the s15 = 915 watts a 18000 hash or 50.8 watts on low setting   so at low speed a 28% improvement is about 37 watts a th.  and it won't be this good.  cause fans and controller should not be 28% better only chips.  

my best guess is 38 watts a th on low speed   say 915 watts and 29th for the standard model

for high speed I guess 44 watts a th    say 1600 watts and  37th for the standard model

that would be a 28% improvement of just the chips vs the s15.

My fear of the pro model is lots of power a 3000 plus watt psu = trouble.

I have been more inclined to like the whatsminer gear.

but I want to run:
2 s17's   big one and little one
lots of m20's
at least 1 A1021 from avalon

I will do YouTube videos etc of all the above.

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April 08, 2019, 01:01:07 AM
 #57

The normal s17 is 45th at 1650w.  I am told by one of my 3rd party sellers who has a demo.  I am unsure on pro still and no one seems to know.  I imagine just higher hash rate.
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April 08, 2019, 01:31:44 AM
 #58

The normal s17 is 45th at 1650w.  I am told by one of my 3rd party sellers who has a demo.  I am unsure on pro still and no one seems to know.  I imagine just higher hash rate.

1650/45000 = good.   Grin. 37 watts a th. Vs 60 watts a th at high speed is better then 28 or 29 % improvement.

I wonder if that demo is a cherrypicked unit.

I have carefully checked my 8 m10s and if I cherry picked all 24 boards I can get a really nice set of numbers much better the specs suggest is possible.

If the majority of s17s do 37 watts a th  at high speed people will buy them.

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April 08, 2019, 02:17:47 AM
Merited by frodocooper (3), OgNasty (1), Steamtyme (1)
 #59

https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020190407195201905KA2GYCYc0654

Some info on the pro right now on bitmain website.

53~62 THs @ 2800w

too much
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April 08, 2019, 02:33:15 AM
 #60

Looks like they are updating everything so far it looks like all S17 and S17 pro.

But they have numbers ranging from 35-48 J/TH for the pro model this is @ 25 Celcisus it jumps if you're running warmer @ 40 Celsius you see 38-52 J/TH. That's between the 3 different power modes.

S17 seems to be 42-45 @ 25 Celsius and 43-51 @ 40 Celsius. Only 2 power modes.

Wide swings in hashrate and between the modes as well.

Pro = 36-62 TH/S based on mode

Regular = 35-53 TH/S


Damn these are looking good.

I know I should wait, but I can’t help but feel like I’m going to be ordering one of these right away.

With these numbers I can't blame you

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April 08, 2019, 02:43:06 AM
 #61

My favorite part is shipping late THIS month.

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April 08, 2019, 05:45:14 AM
Last edit: April 08, 2019, 10:44:38 AM by frodocooper
 #62

My favorite part is shipping late THIS month.

not enough time (most likely) for the tariff to go away.
it's a 27.6% add-on to the price in US.

It looks like an industrial/hosting machine with 82db of noise (maybe if someone has well insulated basement, it can work out).
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April 08, 2019, 06:52:11 AM
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #63

Note the voltage rating 200min-240max and the warning:

     Caution: Wrong input voltage may probably cause miner damaged

Looks like dual power inputs on the PSU.

Anyone care to speculate on the prices or if they will limit purchase qnty per customer of the 1st batch of units?
With BTC up I bet they are gonna be pretty expensive.

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April 08, 2019, 08:46:02 AM
Last edit: April 08, 2019, 09:13:55 AM by minefarmbuy
 #64

$5k/coin isn't that big a pump considering diff. I would hope about 2k a unit to move these well.

Wrong and right? Probably more wrong. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5111410.msg49823332#msg49823332

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April 08, 2019, 09:54:11 AM
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #65

The Chinese guy that supplies me says price will be around 2.3k usd, but not sure at what model he is referring to... Also, his price usually includes shipping costs to Europe, so maybe Bitmain will sell them between 1.9k and 2.1k? Although it also depends, if they have discounts or not price could be lower, for reference I've been buying 28Th S15s for 870usd shipping included 2 weeks ago, and Bitmain price was 1.035usd. Will see in a few days  Wink
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April 08, 2019, 10:55:42 AM
 #66

Still no good if you have high electricty prices. Here in the UK i would make $0.79 a week  Cheesy

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April 08, 2019, 11:53:50 AM
 #67

Wasn't the whatsminer M20 48th/s (46w/TH) at $1450?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5120959.0

If priced too high, Bitmain is gonna lost customers as they will wait for whatsminer restock.
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April 08, 2019, 11:58:50 AM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 12:23:14 AM by frodocooper
 #68

Yes.  And the 72th was 2048 with shipping  72 at 3312 watts = 46 watts a th

the pro here is 2790 watts and 62 th = 2790/62000   or 45 watts a th

the pro here hates the heat  it drops to 52.79 watts a th at 40c


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April 08, 2019, 12:01:49 PM
 #69

They may be banking on people being willing to spend a few extra dollars to get the machine faster. It doesn't hurt to be first out of the gate before the machines drive the hashrate and Difficulty up.
Aren't the M20's not expected to be shipped until July/August?

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April 08, 2019, 12:07:48 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 12:24:09 AM by frodocooper
 #70

lots to think about here.  But I will be looking to get at least one.

the low setting is very efficient even in a hot space  it is 42 watts a th

note no coupons will be allowed for this batch.

looks like they cherry picked chips  to make the pro

if you look at the standard model it is much less efficient

35th or 50th for low?

power numbers are not too good for the standard machine


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April 08, 2019, 12:44:57 PM
 #71

It's hard to say the way they laid it out. I could see them cherry picking, that would make sense to be able to label it PRO and slap a few extra dollars on it.

Comparing them it almost looks like it just has poor control. They have a wide swing in hashrate like you said for the low mode. Not sure if that would be due to limitations on some chips preventing entire strings or boards from being able to properly lower their frequency.

The numbers aren't the worst on the min. expected. Seems getting an underperformer in hashrate here actually nets you a more efficient model. low 40's

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April 08, 2019, 01:22:28 PM
Merited by frodocooper (2)
 #72

Aren't the M20's not expected to be shipped until July/August?

Also, you have to consider your electrical installation, with 2 power cables the S17's can easily replace or go into current installs while the M20 requires 20A wiring.
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April 08, 2019, 01:25:53 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 12:25:12 AM by frodocooper
 #73

The top numbers for power draw that I marked in red use as much as 3300 watts so 20 amp is needed to be safe.

Note that is pro model in a hot room on turbo 3371 watts.

Lastly 200 to 240 volts. Means my garage is out as it can drift up to 245 volts.

My spot in Clifton NJ  is better 226 to 229 watts.

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April 08, 2019, 01:38:33 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 12:26:21 AM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (3)
 #74

1650/45000 = good.   Grin. 37 watts a th. Vs 60 watts a th at high speed is better then 28 or 29 % improvement.

I wonder if that demo is a cherrypicked unit.

I have carefully checked my 8 m10s and if I cherry picked all 24 boards I can get a really nice set of numbers much better the specs suggest is possible.

If the majority of s17s do 37 watts a th  at high speed people will buy them.

Yes there is a chance they may cherrypick those units (and your pending M20 as well), so there is no choice but to accept an early review, and then later a second review when "production" units are available. So, an early review, and then again another from a following batch etc. Can be from different reviewers, don't take all the burden yourself Smiley

I'm guessing the S17 will be 40~45 watt a th. Since you have a voltage regulator you can measure them 240v, 220v and 208v for science.
If i were to guess, Bitmain may be publishing stats based on the chips themselves (20v DC), or the whole unit plugged to Chinese mains, which is 230v@50hz.

All that current transforming causes some loses. One thing to always keep in mind for you people using renewable, is figure a way to avoid inverting in the first place. I mean, if your panels make 24v and the Asic boards take 20v, shouldn't the whole dc-ac, ac-dc be skipped altogether? If you can ever pull that (skip the PSUs, direct feed the units) you are going to be more efficient than everybody else.

To begin with DC tends to lower its voltage on its own, use a long enough wire and it might already be down to 20v by the time it reaches the unit... Else you could figure out DC to DC psus, they exist for regular PCs and servers (especially useful if your input DC is too different, ie. 48v or 12v, or mostly to buffer voltage variations from the input (such as when you turn on/off another unit) and ensure steady 20v to the output.

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April 08, 2019, 04:10:14 PM
 #75

They may be banking on people being willing to spend a few extra dollars to get the machine faster. It doesn't hurt to be first out of the gate before the machines drive the hashrate and Difficulty up.
Aren't the M20's not expected to be shipped until July/August?

Your post mentioned a shipping date of May 20th: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5120959.0
Assuming May 20th, it's just a month of extra mining time, worth ~$200-250 USD. They may be able to charge a small premium for the 12%~ more efficient pro version, but the standard S17 will not sell well if it costs more than the M20s + 1 month mining time.

I wish I had lower electricity costs, 7.5 cents just isn't viable for btc mining.
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April 08, 2019, 04:13:36 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 12:27:07 AM by frodocooper
 #76

Yes there is a chance they may cherrypick those units (and your pending M20 as well), so there is no choice but to accept an early review, and then later a second review when "production" units are available. So, an early review, and then again another from a following batch etc. Can be from different reviewers, don't take all the burden yourself Smiley

I'm guessing the S17 will be 40~45 watt a th. Since you have a voltage regulator you can measure them 240v, 220v and 208v for science.
If i were to guess, Bitmain may be publishing stats based on the chips themselves (20v DC), or the whole unit plugged to Chinese mains, which is 230v@50hz.

All that current transforming causes some loses. One thing to always keep in mind for you people using renewable, is figure a way to avoid inverting in the first place. I mean, if your panels make 24v and the Asic boards take 20v, shouldn't the whole dc-ac, ac-dc be skipped altogether? If you can ever pull that (skip the PSUs, direct feed the units) you are going to be more efficient than everybody else.

To begin with DC tends to lower its voltage on its own, use a long enough wire and it might already be down to 20v by the time it reaches the unit... Else you could figure out DC to DC psus, they exist for regular PCs and servers (especially useful if your input DC is too different, ie. 48v or 12v, or mostly to buffer voltage variations from the input (such as when you turn on/off another unit) and ensure steady 20v to the output.

All out direct dc panel to miners have been a fail.  Can't stay  stable say 12 volts (L3+) with out a ton of batteries and caps  that then makes it too costly.  every dc to dc psu  wants very stable dc in.

Our off grid setups have not worked well so far.

We wanted a doghouse with 4x 320 watt panels to run an L3+  lots of time and money tossed at products that don't work well.

All off topic though.  

Yeah a few s17's will get ordered.

Maybe only 1 at a time as 2000 + 500 trump tax =  2500

Say the pro doing  62th at 2800 watts  62th is  370 a month usd  in btc I get ½ or 185 a month so 2500 /185= 13.5 month for payoff

if gear is 2300 I could be looking at 2875/185 = 15.5 months.

while the m20 doing 72th  earns 430 usd a month in btc I get ½ or 215  I paid 2048 + 560 = 2608/ 215 = 12 month payoff

so m20  is just as good as a s17.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 08, 2019, 07:47:30 PM
 #77

my set up should be able to handle these as each breaker is 30 amps and I am currently running 2 miners off of each breaker - this would put it as one miner per breaker -  I could run 10 max

I want to buy them to get the early jump on the hash rate before difficulty climbs thru the roof but I am wanting to also wait for coupons to help offset the 25% tariff - that makes it even worse to swallow a 2k price tag.... The last time I paid 2k for a miner, it took over a year to make ROI on that miner - I would like to not go a year to make ROI again.

so - even though I would love to get 10 of these and replace all my S9's - the price is really going to be the deciding factor. I may just wait for coupons and buy more T15's and make ROI hopefully faster.



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April 08, 2019, 10:08:11 PM
 #78

I sold off all my miners about a year ago but news of this release has me interesting in possibly dipping my toes in again. One question I have though, why did they break this release up into 4x different models? On their site it shows 2x different Pro models (53THs and 50THs) and 2x different standard models (56THs and 53THs).
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April 08, 2019, 10:08:25 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 12:29:28 AM by frodocooper
 #79

I'm happy with my S15 I won't buy the latest S17 unless it's cheap ( unlikely ).
It just pack more hash and watts but to benefit fully of the new efficiency,
you need to run in low-power mode, cutting precious hash rate for ROI.
In full power, they do a little bit better than the S15 efficiency
but did not justify another upgrade for me.
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April 08, 2019, 10:11:52 PM
 #80

I sold off all my miners about a year ago but news of this release has me interesting in possibly dipping my toes in again. One question I have though, why did they break this release up into 4x different models? On their site it shows 2x different Pro models (53THs and 50THs) and 2x different standard models (56THs and 53THs).

I honestly feel it's like inno did for the a9.  Ones that were made with better chips that hit 53, they will see as the 53th normal pro, ones that hit 50, they will sell as such for slightly less money.  Both are same efficiency in low and turbo power mode and both do same hashrate in those two modes.  That being said, I honestly see like no difference.  If the 53th is like.. $100 more, sure, if it's like $500 more, lol then no.  It sounds to me like the same miner just maybe more precise chips in the one with 53th is all.
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April 08, 2019, 10:21:26 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 12:30:18 AM by frodocooper
 #81

OVER THE YEARS  more then one 13th s9  did better then a 14th s9

I have had about  1000  bitmain units from s1 to s15  and they can vary spec a lot.

If you are buying  more then 5 pieces.  I suggest not over spending on the highest specced  ones.

Yeah if they gave you a day in the factory to cherry pick  the 5 best why not.  But I have seen higher ranked not that good.

I had 1 s7 that was unreal  it clocked  like 50mhz better then any of my others and it was super good on power like 235 watts a th  which was super good for that unit.  It also never tossed hw's 100 days at a time without one.

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April 09, 2019, 06:08:08 AM
 #82

Hmm.........2k + for unit.......... who's willing to bite the bullets first?
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April 09, 2019, 06:13:06 AM
 #83

Hmm.........2k + for unit.......... who's willing to bite the bullets first?

I got mine ordered.

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April 09, 2019, 06:24:26 AM
 #84

I got 3 of the 50 TH Pros.  While more than I was hoping for still worth it IMO.
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April 09, 2019, 06:31:56 AM
 #85

Hmm.........2k + for unit.......... who's willing to bite the bullets first?

I was ready to pull the trigger on up to 10 PRO's @ up to $1700 each, but $2360? That's $3000 per machine including the tariff to nets > $7 a day at 8 cent power @ current difficulty & BTC price.

Even if I still had the March coupons it would have been a pass. Should have gone to bed.

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April 09, 2019, 06:35:11 AM
 #86

Can Almost guarantee that they will be 1.5k by end of this month. I don't think they can make 500$ in a month......unless $BTC goes up....which means that its better to just hold BTC. Idk man, the math isn't adding up right now.
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April 09, 2019, 06:42:58 AM
 #87

Same, better wait till 1.5k or less...
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April 09, 2019, 09:13:27 AM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 09:32:39 AM by pierobj
 #88

My S15s will ROI faster than buying any of the new S17 at current prices... Better to wait couple months to buy in my opinion too. Also, many few units were available for sale, so difficulty should not jump heavily.
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April 09, 2019, 10:32:24 AM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 12:23:43 PM by frodocooper
 #89

I slept through the sale.  They were not for sale at 12:50 am and sold out by 6:32 am EST times.
 
The prices  were too high glad I missed it.
2043 to 2366 not counting shipping
I paid 2048 for the 72th m10  that includes shipping.

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April 09, 2019, 12:17:51 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 06:08:33 PM by Artemis3
 #90

Well that didn't last long... Bitmain as usual.



But i don't see any "T17"s, where did you get that info from? I assume "Pro" 53 is the most efficient one?

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April 09, 2019, 12:48:07 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 11:01:30 PM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (2)
 #91

yep - I missed the sale as well... I went to bed at 1230 am Eastern and they were still showing as "TBD" to me, I got up at 630 am and they were sold out... but yes with 2k+ price tags without coupons and with the tariff - it would be a super long ROI

I almost think it would be better if these manufacturers would stop producing products for a while so that people who bought machines could reach ROI before the new ones come out. I think I will just keep an eye out for more T15's because at 1/3rd the price, they are much more likely to make ROI than the S17 ---- though I would love to replace all 20 existing miners with 10 S17's as it would replace my 289 TH/s with 620 TH/s and while it would also replace my approx. 22,585 watts of power usage with approx. 27,900 watts of power usage - the more than double hashrate would compensate for that. Right now, my profit is just around $850 per month - the change over would put my profit around $2,650 per month (based on current difficulty and BTC price of course) to do that upgrade would cost over $25k pushing ROI to almost 1 year at current difficulty/BTC price/profit margin. But that profit will decrease rather soon, especially as now difficulty is going to climb when these hit the market. So, it is hard to justify not upgrading as my existing monthly profit may disappear but to maintain a monthly profit means to push the ROI too far out....

I just need free electricity and then profit will always be easy lol

Not sure how many were in batch 1, but they sold out fast.



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April 09, 2019, 01:08:26 PM
 #92

I forgot all about this. Not that I was grabbing one just wanted to see the pricing.

Under the noted I think there is a batch 2 on the 10th.


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April 09, 2019, 01:34:55 PM
 #93

I did not get in on this round.  Not enough ROI right now, it will steadily grow, as will the quality of the miner in the next round.  I will be in on the third round; probably about July.

What will be interesting is the Difficulty over the next few months...Very, very interesting.

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April 09, 2019, 01:48:27 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 11:02:25 PM by frodocooper
 #94

I did not get in on this round.  Not enough ROI right now, it will steadily grow, as will the quality of the miner in the next round.  I will be in on the third round; probably about July.

What will be interesting is the Difficulty over the next few months...Very, very interesting.

Well if you are running 2 s9's  at 14th each  you have    28th at 2600 watts.

one of these is about 50th and 2200 watts  yeah It varies.

Cost is a joke all are over 2600  shipped to usa.

For now  my thoughts are  they don't have a lot of them  and we can see if that is true by watching hashrate rise or not.

we are flat right now:

Latest Block:   570900  (3 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   100.0328%  (373 / 372.88 expected, 0.12 ahead)...

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 09, 2019, 02:01:05 PM
 #95

I have 4 on order.  That being said, I would not recommend this buy.  I buy through a contact in china, long story short I essentially traded old gear and got these for half price due to money received for the old gear.  If I had to pay close to $3000 or more for each one of these, no way in hell I would take that risk.  As said above the m20s was under $2100 shipped.
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April 09, 2019, 03:50:07 PM
 #96

Sold out in 14 minutes. I grab one to resale it. Price is high but with the current bullish-bearing market they may ROI sooner that expected.
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April 09, 2019, 04:03:53 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 11:03:38 PM by frodocooper
 #97

Sold out in 14 minutes. I grab one to resale it. Price is high but with the current bullish-bearing market they may ROI sooner that expected.

how much do you mark up for resale?

I am thinking the ROI will be longer - but that will more then likely depend on how many were sold - as soon as they all hit the network, if there are a lot of them - I am thinking difficulty will climb and thus reduce the profitability but then again if the profits drop too much, we may have farms using S9's that shut down and thus lower difficulty back down.

I will wait till they offer some coupons and lower the price, at current price plus tariff, too high in my opinion.

edit: as a note, I see them up for sale again for April 20 - 30 shipping date.

second edit: now the S17 normal 56 TH/s is sold out for second batch.



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April 09, 2019, 04:24:51 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 11:04:03 PM by frodocooper
 #98

To cover the import tax and shipping to purchaser I have to push the price pass $3K. I'm betting on the BTC price trend staying bullish to create appeal.
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April 09, 2019, 05:09:43 PM
 #99

Take a look at the BCH Hashrate.

I think Bitmain uses the undelivered S17's to mine BCH at this moment.
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April 09, 2019, 05:18:32 PM
 #100

I got one last night before they sold out in about 5 minutes. I was debating on paying BTC and waiting for Blokforge to list to use credit, but once I saw them all gone I pulled the trigger and figured I could resale for more if I wanted to. Wished the pricing was closer to what Blokforge listed. Hoping they have a relatively limited supply. Today they've been going out of stock and adding them back for over an hour now. They are probably keeping majority of them since they are already offering plans on Bitdeer starting end of April.
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April 09, 2019, 05:20:10 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 11:05:39 PM by frodocooper
 #101

To cover the import tax and shipping to purchaser I have to push the price pass $3K. I'm betting on the BTC price trend staying bullish to create appeal.

Why only buy one then?

I got one last night before they sold out in about 5 minutes. I was debating on paying BTC and waiting for Blokforge to list to use credit, but once I saw them all gone I pulled the trigger and figured I could resale for more if I wanted to. Wished the pricing was closer to what Blokforge listed. Hoping they have a relatively limited supply. Today they've been going out of stock and adding them back for over an hour now. They are probably keeping majority of them since they are already offering plans on Bitdeer starting end of April.

How is Blokforge able to sell these at such a low price? (20% off Bitmain's retail price)
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April 09, 2019, 05:35:26 PM
 #102

How is Blokforge able to sell these at such a low price? (20% off Bitmain's retail price)

Their price was TBD. They just launched now at over $3k, which is close to the price from Bitmain with tariff.
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April 09, 2019, 05:46:15 PM
 #103

Their pricing looks fine now not sure why they don't have A10 listing active being a Canaan distributor and all. So many models from Bitmain at once we're not sure if we'll list group buys on there. Sales on them are spread pretty far. Though the people that ordered at our 3.6k pricing in the US will have option for their credit or customs support.

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April 09, 2019, 05:51:09 PM
 #104

Their pricing looks fine now not sure why they don't have A10 listing active being a Canaan distributor and all. So many models from Bitmain at once we're not sure if we'll list group buys on there. Sales on them are spread pretty far. Though the people that ordered at our 3.6k pricing in the US will have option for their credit or customs support.

3.6k? ouch at the 2k price the ROI is damn near a year, if difficulty never rises at 3.6k almost two years and that is with 5 cent electricity.



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April 09, 2019, 05:53:37 PM
 #105

We're sourcing though, not sales. So you'd get that extra back and not all buyers were in the US anyway. 

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April 09, 2019, 06:17:18 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 11:06:58 PM by frodocooper
 #106

We're sourcing though, not sales. So you'd get that extra back and not all buyers were in the US anyway.  

oh you refund the difference?



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April 09, 2019, 06:18:17 PM
 #107

I got one last night before they sold out in about 5 minutes. I was debating on paying BTC and waiting for Blokforge to list to use credit, but once I saw them all gone I pulled the trigger and figured I could resale for more if I wanted to. Wished the pricing was closer to what Blokforge listed. Hoping they have a relatively limited supply. Today they've been going out of stock and adding them back for over an hour now. They are probably keeping majority of them since they are already offering plans on Bitdeer starting end of April.

Yea they are $3200 on blokforge after the tax lol
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April 09, 2019, 06:23:05 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 11:07:18 PM by frodocooper
 #108

oh you refund the difference?

We do a credit in shop under $100 and refund over that. I think our bulk pricing was under or close $2k for initial orders.

Bitmain has a couple version available again for now at least.

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April 09, 2019, 06:30:11 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2019, 11:07:36 PM by frodocooper
 #109

We do a credit in shop under $100 and refund over that. I think our bulk pricing was under or close $2k for initial orders.

Bitmain has a couple version available again for now at least.

gotcha - totally misunderstood, I thought people were paying 3.6k for them lol

being in the US, I will need to wait till the price drops or they offer/coupons to offset the tariff increase.



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April 10, 2019, 02:11:56 AM
Last edit: April 10, 2019, 03:51:47 AM by frodocooper
 #110

Why only buy one then?

I don't want to take any more risk.
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April 10, 2019, 04:38:58 AM
 #111

With the tax and tariff imposed I think I am going to wait to have these shipped to another country to mine in.

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April 10, 2019, 01:06:38 PM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 12:01:12 AM by frodocooper
 #112

@ minefarmbuy I just purchased one solo direct. Antminer S17 Pro 50th

Philip - let me know what that total comes to with the tariff  and after shipping - I want to just buy 10 of them and be done with it but I feel that without coupons and with tariffs and current price that I will be in the red for over a year and that is not what i want.



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April 10, 2019, 03:01:25 PM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 12:01:49 AM by frodocooper
 #113

Philip - let me know what that total comes to with the tariff  and after shipping - I want to just buy 10 of them and be done with it but I feel that without coupons and with tariffs and current price that I will be in the red for over a year and that is not what i want.

I used minefarmpay paypal 6 months zero interest

April 10, 2019   Processing   $2,539.00 for 1 item

Antminer S17 Pro 50Th/s- Solo Buy × 1   $2,539.00

this is 200 more then direct purchase but I get to use paypal.

I am 90% sure it does not include  the tax.  my guess on the tax is 550

net 3089  vs 2890 direct on bitmain.

I will be passing this cost on to a client.
I need to have at least 1 S17 and 1 M20  since I will be getting 5-15 of them  maybe more like  60 of them.

As I think the super build will get done.

we have access to 800 amps x 80 % =   640 amps

and may have access to 1600 amps x 50% = 800 amps

net of 1440 amps of 220-240.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 10, 2019, 03:21:54 PM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 12:02:27 AM by frodocooper
 #114

ahh minefarmpay does not charge for the tariff? hmmm... makes the price more acceptable.

I cannot use paypal anymore - I ordered 10.6k worth of miners and paid with paypal - never got the miners (first and last time buying from a 3rd party that is not proven thru these forums) had to file a claim, after about 60 days paypal did refund me the money but now will no longer allow me to send/receive/pay/sell using that account.  I guess them eating 10.6k --- I paid and had to wait almost 30 days for the shipping to occur but never did - by that time the seller most likely withdrew all the funds so paypal reimbursed me outta their pocket, I assume.

as for your available power, i am still jealous lol.



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April 10, 2019, 03:26:31 PM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 12:03:02 AM by frodocooper
 #115

Took me a long time to get good power deals.

As for buying m20's vs s17's I will have multiple complex decisions .  The Clifton build  is about 231 volts max and it sags to 227 volts with current load of 64kwatts.

As for no tax yes it is not tax upfront but I am 90% sure someone will be asking me for tax money 💰😀

The super build will have 1600 amps or 1400 amps.

It is three sites

A 200 - 400 amp not checked yet
A 400 amp checked out
A pair of 400 amp not checked yet.

So in Theory it is at least four services adding to 1400 to 1600 amps.
On three attached pieces of land over 120 acres of mostly cleared horse 🐎  pasture.

This is a multi million dollar project that would be really nice to get it done.
We will be going to the larger property that has two 400 amp services on it. Next week.
It is still in the what if stage.

The Clifton has 2 x 225 amp panels and will soon have 4 x 225 panels. The super fan is in and it is moving along. It is why I need to really check out the s17 gear as it has never been over 237 volts and now with big load it is 227 volts.

This is good for s17s or s15s.

We may move all other gear to super build and load Clifton with all s17s.

Would be nice to have 36 s17s doing 50 th a piece.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 10, 2019, 03:35:20 PM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 12:03:35 AM by frodocooper
 #116

This is good for s17s or s15s.
We may move all other gear to super build and load Clifton with all s17s.
Would be nice to have 36 s17s doing 50 th a piece.

Damn Phil. That sounds amazing. It's nice to see you guys finding so many opportunities to grow. Works out nicely that it's happening amidst all this crazy efficient gear.

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April 10, 2019, 03:45:41 PM
 #117

We may put up a group buy soon, but still gauging demand for US buyers. That said we left the duties as an optional service for this launch since having 12 listings for 4 products seemed like it would be overbearing.

I just DM'd Philip as paypal takes time to transfer funds usually up to 1 business day. When the order was placed looks like Bitmain showed inventory from our API now it's either sold or locked up for now if people can't pay in time. So there are options for Philip to weigh but nothing out of the ordinary for us with new releases or high demand items, just not ideal for a buyer experience.

Stryfe I just re read your DM, please omit my confusion on your request regarding the psu.

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April 10, 2019, 03:50:53 PM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 12:05:26 AM by frodocooper
 #118

[...]

very nice, I have the land already paid for, almost 1.3 acres. My challenge has been with the electric company and zoning on getting a transformer installed. If I could secure the transformer, I would then get financing to build a data center - I don't want to go too big but maybe something along the lines of 150' long by 75' wide. I could do traditional data center hosting along with mining my own miners and then hosting for others as well. my electricity is not super cheap but it's only .056 so not that expensive either.

Stryfe I just re read your DM, please omit my confusion on your request regarding the psu.

I understood and thanks!



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April 11, 2019, 03:22:20 AM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 10:59:04 AM by frodocooper
 #119

OVER THE YEARS  more then one 13th s9  did better then a 14th s9

Hmm. I handed over for repair a lot of S9 13th hashblades. And I can't remember I had broken 14th blade...

I have come to realise that the best asic is the one the ROIs faster regardless of effiecny , new gens will always most likely always have a longer ROI period.

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April 11, 2019, 06:20:31 AM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 11:00:19 AM by frodocooper
 #120

Anyway looks like s17 are still sold out for first batch. Let's hope second comes soon in every regard for our friend philipma. Though he wont have to worry about a refund if he requests it. Sorry stryfe, what a shitty ordeal btw.

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April 11, 2019, 10:13:15 AM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 11:00:49 AM by frodocooper
 #121

Anyway looks like s17 are still sold out for first batch. Let's hope second comes soon in every regard for our friend philipma. Though he wont have to worry about a refund if he requests it. Sorry stryfe, what a shitty ordeal btw.

I will take you up on the refund.  I sent you a pm asking for it.

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Last edit: April 12, 2019, 12:03:03 AM by frodocooper
 #122

This is my idea...

I don't like ths miner...

For me is a miner only for farm ....
Over 2 kw
4 fan.....
Is impossible for a common user give this miner....
Where is decentralization?
I'm worried because only big farm with big money can do this type of mining...
I think that a small miner ( for example one antminer s9 ++++ with the same chips of this ) will be interesring for normal user...for example... a miner with 12 TH and 500 watt with a cost of 600/800 usd is perfect. ( 36 TH ( low power mode ) /3 = 12 ,  1300w /3 = 433 watt , 2366 usd /3 =788 usd....)
One this hypotetical miner is perfect for me..... for my home, for the home of most user...
Real decentralization for all people,  not only farm.
I don't know if is possible.. but i hope yes.
Bye.

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April 11, 2019, 12:18:00 PM
Last edit: April 11, 2019, 09:24:10 PM by Artemis3
 #123

I think that a small miner ( for example one antminer s9 ++++ with the same chips of this ) will be interesring for normal user...for example... a miner with 12 TH and 500 watt with a cost of 600/800 usd is perfect. ( 36 TH ( low power mode ) /3 = 12 ,  1300w /3 = 433 watt , 2366 usd /3 =788 usd....)
One this hypotetical miner is perfect for me..... for my home, for the home of most user...
Real decentralization for all people,  not only farm.
I don't know if is possible.. but i hope yes.

Actually the solution to this is very simple: buy used when they start breaking. You don't need all 3 asic boards, just get one with 2 or one in working condition... The last miner for the home was the R4, sadly. Their only market are industrial warehouse miners where noise and power doesn't matter.

Buy a damaged S17 with a single working Asic board and put it inside a box like in Philipma's garage and you are gold. Don't worry, they'll break soon enough, they always do... And i hope by that time BraiinsOS is ported to it, who knows how much better efficiency can be squeezed from them.

PS: It uses 2 fans, not 4. The design since the S11 is the same: two pusher fans in one side. Canaan is using this design as well.

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April 11, 2019, 12:49:57 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 12:03:49 AM by frodocooper
 #124

I cannot use paypal anymore - I ordered 10.6k worth of miners and paid with paypal - never got the miners (first and last time buying from a 3rd party that is not proven thru these forums)

Do mention the vendor, it is a service to the community.
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April 11, 2019, 01:06:07 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 12:04:42 AM by frodocooper
 #125

Anyway looks like s17 are still sold out for first batch. Let's hope second comes soon in every regard for our friend philipma. Though he wont have to worry about a refund if he requests it. Sorry stryfe, what a shitty ordeal btw.

first batch sold out in 14 minutes on the 9th, second batch went on sale on the 10th - lasted about a day before being sold out. Bitmain listed the two batch sale dates on their site/blog.

Do mention the vendor, it is a service to the community.

it was over a year ago - and I have forgotten tbh but I believe that I did post it up on here but that when I was just starting here and it may have been deleted. the majority of my first 50 or so posts were deleted - I think I had to make like 75 posts before they started letting them stay on the forums lol

what I do remember is that it was not a manufacturer order - it was a 3rd party seller and their website was offline within a month after they got my money.



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April 11, 2019, 08:02:17 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 12:05:59 AM by frodocooper
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 #126

PS: It uses 2 fans, not 4. The design since the S11 is the same: two pusher fans in one side. Canaan is using this design as well.

In the photo on official site bitmain seems that the fan are 4......


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April 11, 2019, 08:42:35 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 12:06:25 AM by frodocooper
 #127

In the photo on official site bitmain seems that the fan are 4......

That was my belief from the photo's as well. Definitely 4 fans, unless the pics are wrong.

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April 11, 2019, 09:23:39 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 12:06:51 AM by frodocooper
 #128

In the photo on official site bitmain seems that the fan are 4......

Very well then, i stand corrected. I wonder how loud that thing is...

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April 11, 2019, 11:14:22 PM
Merited by suchmoon (9), frodocooper (2), OgNasty (1)
 #129

I wonder how loud that thing is...

a bit like this (82dB):

Quote
Garbage disposal, dishwasher, average factory, freight train (at 15 meters). Car wash at 20 ft (89 dB); propeller plane flyover at 1000 ft (88 dB); diesel truck 40 mph at 50 ft (84 dB); diesel train at 45 mph at 100 ft (83 dB). Food blender (88 dB); milling machine (85 dB); garbage disposal (80 dB).

Possible damage in 8 hour exposure.
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April 11, 2019, 11:27:08 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 12:07:55 AM by frodocooper
 #130

In the photo on official site bitmain seems that the fan are 4......

7 - and those 3 little ones may be the reason it's 82dB ...
(if anyone remembers the T1 ...)

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April 12, 2019, 12:40:36 AM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 10:21:17 AM by frodocooper
 #131

When we are in Clifton  we have to wear headphones.

My guess is the noise level is over 90db inside the mining room.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 12, 2019, 01:09:45 AM
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #132

hmm 4 fans... that will be different than the t15/s15 then that means the adapter to hook to ducting will be different as the screws will be different placements. working on the 3d printed adapters now, will adjust the screw holes to fit this layout.



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April 12, 2019, 05:42:50 AM
 #133

They are out of stock Sad

Any approximation when their next batch will be available?
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April 12, 2019, 11:58:03 AM
 #134

They are out of stock Sad

Any approximation when their next batch will be available?

the first run was about 14 minutes before they sold out the second one was just the next day and lasted most the day but was out of stock by the next morning.



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April 12, 2019, 01:36:58 PM
 #135

I wonder if these will still be fine on a 240v pdu like 99% of the miners out there.  I like how they focus on 220v, but then list 240v as a option in the specs?
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April 12, 2019, 02:28:14 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 11:28:07 PM by frodocooper
 #136

I wonder if these will still be fine on a 240v pdu like 99% of the miners out there.  I like how they focus on 220v, but then list 240v as a option in the specs?

Well  the s15 had 2 psu's blow up at about 243 volts  which is not such a terrible number. For all bitcointalk users only 2 reports of a fail.

But this gear will be using a larger psu and pull over 2500 watts. In a way I am glad I had my unit sale get cancelled.

Once refunded I will report back that I got the refund.

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April 12, 2019, 06:15:21 PM
 #137

Hopefully they can get batch three up soon and relieve back orders. Just all depends on shipping date. The nice thing about these last two were shipping in 2-3 weeks.

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April 13, 2019, 07:33:20 AM
 #138

hmm 4 fans... that will be different than the t15/s15 then that means the adapter to hook to ducting will be different as the screws will be different placements. working on the 3d printed adapters now, will adjust the screw holes to fit this layout.

By any chance, do you already have an S15 ducting adapter 3D design done? I would be very interested on it Roll Eyes
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April 14, 2019, 04:15:16 AM
Last edit: April 16, 2019, 12:12:49 AM by frodocooper
 #139

By any chance, do you already have an S15 ducting adapter 3D design done? I would be very interested on it Roll Eyes

still testing it - I was making one that would fit the s15/t15/s11 based on the 4 screws that hold the back mesh on, but once I saw the S17 versions, I realized that would require two different designs if I use the screws that hold the back mesh on vs the ones that have the fans on the back (S17 versions) so I did some more research - took the front fans off of a T15 and saw that it just screws directly into the mesh --- so, long story short - if I make one that will fit the S17 versions, it should also fit all the ones without back fans because it would simply screw in where the fans would if they were there... at least that is my assumption, so I am working on making the new design and will test it on a T15 by fitting it to both the fans on front and to the mesh on the back.

I will share results as soon as I have it done. if it is required that two designs are necessary then I will get both done - but the hope is that one will fit both scenarios.



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April 22, 2019, 09:40:26 AM
 #140

Looks like S17's are shipping

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April 22, 2019, 12:35:16 PM
 #141

Looks like S17's are shipping

Yeah I think some are up and running  as hashrate has spiked hard

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 22, 2019, 01:41:58 PM
Last edit: April 22, 2019, 01:59:47 PM by kano
 #142

Last 10 hours UTC ...

Expect 6 blocks per hour got:
03:00 6
04:00 3
05:00 5
06:00 2
07:00 4
08:00 7
09:00 3
10:00 2
11:00 5
12:00 3

Expect: 60, Got: 41 ...

13:00 now - 3 so far in 40 minutes

No spike of S17s yet Tongue

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April 22, 2019, 01:57:24 PM
 #143

Last 10 hours UTC ...

Expect 6 blocks per hour got:
03:00 6
04:00 3
05:00 5
06:00 2
07:00 4
08:00 7
09:00 3
10:00 2
11:00 5
12:00 3

Expect: 60, Got: 41 ...

13:00 now - 3 so far in 40 minutes

No spike of S17s Tongue

You are correct .  Actually. First 24 hours we were plus 10% we were at 165 blocks instead of 150

Last ten hours we did 40 vs 60 bringing us down a few blocks vs up 15.

I posted my post without enough coffee in me. And looked at a 25 hour number not a 35 hour number.

Interesting swing +15 to - 3

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April 22, 2019, 02:51:25 PM
 #144

Looks like S17's are shipping

I received notice that mine shipped today.
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April 22, 2019, 08:29:08 PM
 #145

Nice, ours started to trickle in morning of the 19th.

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April 23, 2019, 12:03:17 PM
 #146

That feeling when your 17's are delayed in Shenzhen

Your package is delayed at export and is awaiting release from customs.

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April 23, 2019, 12:07:00 PM
 #147

Stats photos screen shots when they’re mining. Let’s get info.

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April 23, 2019, 12:40:15 PM
 #148

Still aint been much network change:

Last 10 UTC hours:
02:00 6 blocks
03:00 5 blocks
04:00 5 blocks
05:00 5 blocks
06:00 1 block
07:00 4 blocks
08:00 9 blocks
09:00 4 blocks
10:00 5 blocks
11:00 4 blocks

Expected 60 Found 48

12:00 so far 40 mins 2 blocks

... of course these number don't really mean much, the samples are too small, but more data you check, the more it isn't showing a jump Smiley

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April 23, 2019, 12:42:26 PM
Last edit: April 23, 2019, 11:19:20 PM by frodocooper
Merited by suchmoon (9), frodocooper (3)
 #149

well the new batch of 17's should be on sale soon - per the email I got from Bitmain, the new prices are a bit lower - see attached screenshot. and yes.... he called me bro...




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April 23, 2019, 03:15:39 PM
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #150

The batch will not make any substantial impact as initial GPUs, Avalons, KNCs ect coming online. It'll be a smoother increase. Only time you'll really see a sudden spike is when the price rockets again, where old mines will turn on the gear that will be profitable then.

I'll post some pictures when I get my 17's Smiley

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April 23, 2019, 05:14:19 PM
 #151

Stats photos screen shots when they’re mining. Let’s get info.

I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow.

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April 23, 2019, 05:23:12 PM
Last edit: April 23, 2019, 11:20:22 PM by frodocooper
 #152

I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow.

you got yours already? nice!



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April 23, 2019, 06:57:23 PM
 #153

Nice a price drop considering the bump in BTC price.

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April 23, 2019, 07:13:43 PM
 #154

Nice a price drop considering the bump in BTC price.

even better - I hear buyers who bought in the first round are also getting coupons for the next round, lower price and coupon discount - much better price.



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April 23, 2019, 07:20:38 PM
 #155

None issued yet if that's the case.

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April 23, 2019, 07:30:28 PM
 #156

I'm interested in noise of this miner..
Bitmain tell 82 db... hight.... but i think that in lower mode ( about 1300 watt and 36 TH) the heat of the miner is not too hight and the fan will rotate slowly than turbo mode... is possible that the miner is quite silent? When someone have one please confirm my idea.

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April 23, 2019, 09:41:42 PM
Last edit: April 23, 2019, 10:03:19 PM by mgoz
Merited by suchmoon (9), frodocooper (2)
 #157

even better - I hear buyers who bought in the first round are also getting coupons for the next round, lower price and coupon discount - much better price.

Yes, received email stating coupons will be provided before May 10th with no expiry.

$338 coupon if you purchased 50 TH/s S17 Pro
$358 coupon if you purchased 53 TH/s S17 Pro

Previously posted price drops were also listed.


I'm interested in noise of this miner..
Bitmain tell 82 db... hight.... but i think that in lower mode ( about 1300 watt and 36 TH) the heat of the miner is not too hight and the fan will rotate slowly than turbo mode... is possible that the miner is quite silent? When someone have one please confirm my idea.

If it's like the S15, the fan speeds are not relatively stable. They constantly fluctuate from low to high speeds and it does this regardless of efficiency settings. The fluctuation is what makes it annoying. I never paid attention to see if it were the PSU fans or the miner, but the S15 is louder than anything else I've ever had and the S17 is supposed to be 6 db louder.
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April 23, 2019, 10:49:37 PM
Last edit: April 23, 2019, 11:22:49 PM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (2)
 #158

If it's like the S15, the fan speeds are not relatively stable. They constantly fluctuate from low to high speeds and it does this regardless of efficiency settings. The fluctuation is what makes it annoying. I never paid attention to see if it were the PSU fans or the miner, but the S15 is louder than anything else I've ever had and the S17 is supposed to be 6 db louder.

Can you take a video of this? Preferably with something to measure db noise?

If your fans are actually peaking at or near 100%, there is always the trick of disconnecting the 4th wire from the fans to force them at 100%, no firmware mod or ssh access required... This should kill the fluctuation.

You can carefully take out the wire from the female plastic plug without damaging it, with a small screwdriver to punch a little dent to release it.

Fan wiring is usually just: negative, positive, rpm reporting, rpm controlling (they have fancier words like pwm but meh).


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April 24, 2019, 01:44:39 AM
 #159

Mine arrive tomorrow.  Hopefully will have them up and running tomorrow night.
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April 24, 2019, 02:50:28 AM
Last edit: April 24, 2019, 10:16:13 AM by frodocooper
Merited by philipma1957 (3), frodocooper (3)
 #160

Quote from: Bitmain
Please kindly note that power supply is a part of S17 Pro-53TH/s. However, the power cord is not included, please find two with at least 10A from your local market...

6.  Please kindly note that the required input voltage for S17 Pro-53TH/s is 220V.

curious if you can use 2 separate 15A breakers for this, some of my S9is i have a couple psu's connected to overclock them and i use a few breakers.



bitmain support released these vids for the s17/pro

dissemble AWP9 psu https://youtu.be/TWngE5712iE

setup https://youtu.be/1kIvVrvyzYw

dissemble control board  https://youtu.be/KZb96iTfcrQ
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April 24, 2019, 03:06:49 AM
 #161

bitmain support released these vids for the s17/pro

 dissemble AWP9 psu https://youtu.be/TWngE5712iE

setup https://youtu.be/1kIvVrvyzYw

dissemble control board  https://youtu.be/KZb96iTfcrQ

nice links   yeah 2 plugs  means 2 circuits = smart.

my s15 and t15 do not have that.

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April 24, 2019, 10:58:07 AM
 #162

Coupons should've been issued out recently for the first batch buyers!

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April 24, 2019, 12:34:45 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 02:08:11 AM by frodocooper
Merited by OgNasty (1), frodocooper (1), rz66 (1)
 #163

bitmain support released these vids for the s17/pro
dissemble AWP9 psu https://youtu.be/TWngE5712iE
setup https://youtu.be/1kIvVrvyzYw
dissemble control board  https://youtu.be/KZb96iTfcrQ

Those videos all come from a youtube channel called "Bitmain Support":



How to set up a new Antminer S17/S17Pro




How to disassemble the APW9 PSU from your Antminer S17/S17 Pro?




How to disassemble Antminer S17/S17Pro control board

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April 24, 2019, 12:48:43 PM
 #164

The two plug feature is nice.

These units spec to about 3000 watts on highest setting.

So with two plugs max would be 1500 watts a plug.

It also looks like standard setting is 2300 watts. So two units use four plugs and shoul be perfect for a 30 amp 220 volt circuit.

It does seem they want 220 volts. With 240 max.

With a warning against over volts.

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April 24, 2019, 12:53:34 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 02:09:14 AM by frodocooper
 #165

If I can put 2 on a 30 amp 220 circuit, I could use 20 of them and all I would need to do is add extra outlets - as I currently run 2 miners per 30 amp 220v circuit now. I just have 2 plugs off each circuit, i would need to up it to 4 off of each circuit.



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April 24, 2019, 01:58:24 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 02:11:02 AM by frodocooper
 #166

I have a couple 220v 20amp but a few spare 15A i want to use up i wonder if it'll take a 110/120v plug with sep. breakers for one s17 pro, i dont like the warning lol.

request for whomever gets theirs first when you make some videos could you post the plugs with voltage /watt meters to show how many watts each plug is sucking out Cheesy would be appreciated and helpful!!
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April 24, 2019, 02:33:56 PM
 #167

For some reason my import duties/taxes was only $73.52 through DHL. Seems like they only charged the 2.6% unless I'll be getting another bill later.
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April 24, 2019, 06:09:05 PM
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #168

I'd set some funds aside just in case.

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April 24, 2019, 06:36:57 PM
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #169

The two plug feature is nice.

These units spec to about 3000 watts on highest setting.

So with two plugs max would be 1500 watts a plug.

It also looks like standard setting is 2300 watts. So two units use four plugs and shoul be perfect for a 30 amp 220 volt circuit.

It does seem they want 220 volts. With 240 max.

With a warning against over volts.

I would be extremely careful with it.
I have not looked deeper into it, how they've built it,
but I just want to say that there is a risk if you have two different circuits connected from two different phases (three phase system).
---> Phase to phase short circuit.

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April 24, 2019, 06:40:48 PM
 #170

Imagine you could use a splitter? Or not a good idea?

https://www.tripplite.com/products/splitters~5-33

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April 24, 2019, 07:38:59 PM
Merited by frodocooper (2)
 #171

Imagine you could use a splitter? Or not a good idea?

https://www.tripplite.com/products/splitters~5-33

that will burn the cords because they are rated 10A

if that worked that cord would need to be something like 20a and depending on the length a lower gauge (thicker) wire to carry that load
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April 24, 2019, 08:40:44 PM
 #172

When you US buyers get yours in please post what the duty is?

I know on the s15's it was just a bit for $300 a unit.
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April 25, 2019, 12:13:26 AM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 02:13:24 AM by frodocooper
 #173

I would be extremely careful with it.
I have not looked deeper into it, how they've built it,
but I just want to say that there is a risk if you have two different circuits connected from two different phases (three phase system).
---> Phase to phase short circuit.

my pdus are all 1 phase 24/30amp    since clifton is 227 volts  227 x 24 = 5448 watts  so  i think I can do 2 on 1 pdu.

Singe phase is good.  but I will need mid setting not turbo.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 25, 2019, 03:04:33 AM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 04:06:09 AM by cmanmatt
Merited by frodocooper (3), Steamtyme (1)
 #174

Got my first S17 Pro (50TH model) up and running.  As smooth of a startup as typical with Antminers.  Just plugged in both power cords and viola.

I've only tried "normal" mode so far and I'm getting 51 TH on average and about 2050 Watts measured with my smart switch.  So right at 40 J/TH efficiency.  The noise seems similar to other antminers.  Not noticeably louder to me but then again I have 40 antminers running in my garage so I probably wouldn't notice.  And I haven't tried turbo mode.

Edit1: Turbo mode results: 57 TH, 2500 Watts - 43.8 J/TH.  Pretty impressive! And not really any louder that I can tell.

Edit2: Low power mode: 40 TH, 1540 Watts - 38.5 J/TH.

Below is a pic of it and the dashboard.  I'll be trying the other modes when I get a chance.

https://imgur.com/k6aMzDf
https://imgur.com/I2fRpwD
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April 25, 2019, 04:01:54 AM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 04:17:58 AM by frodocooper
 #175

my pdus are all 1 phase 24/30amp    since clifton is 227 volts  227 x 24 = 5448 watts  so  i think I can do 2 on 1 pdu.

Singe phase is good.  but I will need mid setting not turbo.

yes, I would have to do mid setting as well, turbo would be too much. another reason why I contemplate sticking with the T15's lol.



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April 25, 2019, 04:21:05 AM
 #176

And also feeding it from two different MCBs, even if they are at the same phase, is a bad thing, because the protection will not work as intended.

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April 25, 2019, 01:11:13 PM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 04:18:50 AM by frodocooper
 #177

Got my first S17 Pro (50TH model) up and running.  As smooth of a startup as typical with Antminers.  Just plugged in both power cords and viola.

I've only tried "normal" mode so far and I'm getting 51 TH on average and about 2050 Watts measured with my smart switch.  So right at 40 J/TH efficiency.  The noise seems similar to other antminers.  Not noticeably louder to me but then again I have 40 antminers running in my garage so I probably wouldn't notice.  And I haven't tried turbo mode.

Edit1: Turbo mode results: 57 TH, 2500 Watts - 43.8 J/TH.  Pretty impressive! And not really any louder that I can tell.

Edit2: Low power mode: 40 TH, 1540 Watts - 38.5 J/TH.

Below is a pic of it and the dashboard.  I'll be trying the other modes when I get a chance.

https://imgur.com/k6aMzDf
https://imgur.com/I2fRpwD

Keep it flat and you are going to hurt the upper Asic board. They have to stand for a reason: Heats goes up, and you want the boards to have the same relative dissipation, not the lower ones dissipating to the top ones. Other than that, nice results.

Also repeating the exact same pool url is pointless. If you want same pool failover, try the same pool different nodes. For slushpool you could use something like:

stratum+tcp://us-east.stratum.slushpool.com:3333
stratum+tcp://ca.stratum.slushpool.com:3333
stratum+tcp://stratum.slushpool.com:3333


This is just in case a node fails or something. If you only fill 1, that 1 is going to be endlessly retried anyway you don't have to repeat it twice or thrice.

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April 25, 2019, 01:34:52 PM
 #178

It finally went out of stock, took an entire day.
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April 25, 2019, 03:43:48 PM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 04:19:53 AM by frodocooper
 #179

... Also repeating the exact same pool url is pointless. If you want same pool failover, try the same pool different nodes. For slushpool you could use something like:

stratum+tcp://us-east.stratum.slushpool.com:3333
stratum+tcp://ca.stratum.slushpool.com:3333
stratum+tcp://stratum.slushpool.com:3333


This is just in case a node fails or something. If you only fill 1, that 1 is going to be endlessly retried anyway you don't have to repeat it twice or thrice.

Yep, and I actually use two nodes of the main pool for Pool 1 and Pool 2 addresses, and the third one I use is a different mining pool for Pool 3 address.

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April 25, 2019, 05:36:26 PM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 04:20:25 AM by frodocooper
 #180

Agree on the pools - I was just being lazy in setting these up last night in a hurry.  I typically have 2 different pools list for most of my machines.  I seldom bother with a third. Smiley

And on the orientation of the miners, I hadn't seen a direct recommendation of vertical or flat but now that I have these machines, I planned to rearrange my shelving to allow vertical because it will let me fit the machines better in my hot box.  But good info on the heat flow, I'll pay attention when I rearrange them to see what the temps do.
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April 25, 2019, 10:11:59 PM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 04:22:17 AM by frodocooper
Merited by suchmoon (9), frodocooper (2), OgNasty (1)
 #181

Please note all photos below are from a forum member that chooses to be anonymous.
I host 3 s9's with him and he sometimes sends photos of his newer gear.
I think it is of the s17pro 50th model not sure about that.

I asked him for power numbers which he will email to me tonight or tomorrow. edit at least 10 days for power readings

s17 db reading

77db



speed choices set to normal



55th



2 plugs


I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 25, 2019, 10:26:47 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 10:57:15 PM by mgoz
Merited by frodocooper (3)
 #182

I have the same db meter. With an S15 and S17 running both on turbo I was seeing 90db. It goes up to 100db when the S15 fan speed spools up. S17 is higher pitched, but fans don't fluctuate constantly like S15. Changing S17 to low power dropped it 10-12db. I am going to keep the S17 on low power or normal because it's way too loud on turbo.

This is S15 and S17 in turbo. You can't even really hear the S15 over high pitched S17 until fans spool up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgn8pyWvSe8

This is S15 in turbo and S17 in low power mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhwTD7WdDkI
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April 25, 2019, 11:31:01 PM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 04:24:03 AM by frodocooper
 #183

I have the same db meter. With an S15 and S17 running both on turbo I was seeing 90db. It goes up to 100db when the S15 fan speed spools up. S17 is higher pitched, but fans don't fluctuate constantly like S15. Changing S17 to low power dropped it 10-12db. I am going to keep the S17 on low power or normal because it's way too loud on turbo.

This is S15 and S17 in turbo. You can't even really hear the S15 over high pitched S17 until fans spool up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgn8pyWvSe8

This is S15 in turbo and S17 in low power mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhwTD7WdDkI

He set his range to 80 dB and I believe gear is at normal speed.

Try one of your s17s on normal speed and range at 80 dB.

As I see specs turbo looks to be really hard on  unit with not much gain in hash.

But this is not my gear as I was not able to order on in first batch. Since then I have decided to not purchase any new gear from bitmain.  I will buy used s17 from forum miners, but not from bitmain direct.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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April 26, 2019, 01:26:18 AM
Last edit: April 26, 2019, 04:25:37 AM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #184

Some images of my s17 as promised.


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April 26, 2019, 01:30:05 AM
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #185

Try one of your s17s on normal speed and range at 80 dB.

The range on the meter is just the min/max it will register in 16db increments. If it's set to 80, it won't read higher than 86db or lower than 70db. I switched to normal speed and there's not much difference in sound compared to low power mode. Will be keeping it set there. I'm seeing around the same db as him with the S15 running at the same time. It only goes above 80db when the S15 fans fluctuate every minute or so and essentially same as second video. I switched the range in that video from 90 to 80 because it dropped below 80.
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April 26, 2019, 01:31:23 AM
 #186

Thanks for posting the images behalf of that user, and to the others posting your results. I'll update the Competitive hardware thread now that I've seen it, using advertised numbers.

Now I haven't really followed this much, the hard 240V warning for me is a no go unless I delve into hosted gear. Is the 2 plug option necessary or is that just optional for feeding the PSU from 2 sources? I just find it weird if you have to use 2 power cables, when the power draw doesn't appear to be that crazy even on turbo mode. I'm sure I'm missing something just thought I'd check.

Not surprised by the dB, I'm anticipating something like this for the M20 and am trying to build a decent dampener to remain fairly under the radar.

Some images of my s17 as promised.

Oooh shiny, a nice uptick for NastyMining.