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Author Topic: Tracking the Trust System's Stupid Shit  (Read 2937 times)
marcotheminer
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March 20, 2019, 08:37:24 AM
Last edit: April 17, 2019, 08:59:30 AM by marcotheminer
#1

Changed thread name: post whatever stupid shit goes on through "trust drama" here if you'd like. Everyone needs to relax (maybe take 420 to do so?) & stop creating problems where there are none .



Last update:

Here's another example of stupid shit going on:



On user Vod: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=30747

"Counter." I didn't cut anything off, that's really the only thing he put lol.



Just expressing my thoughts, trying to NOT come from a biased point of view (though currently, I am victim of these problems too).

Not sure about a solution, it's too easy for one to subjectively scammer-tag people without repercussions because they will endlessly argue about the validity of the trust.

The trust that I found that led me to this post (apart from my obvious circumstances) was left by yahoo62278 on Thule: "This user has some issues. Dealing with him may lead to personal vendettas or major smear attempts."

User has some issues... May lead to... Hmm. I wouldn't think negative (scammer) trust is required to say this. Neutral works just fine. I didn't look at this user's other trusts - but if this one is there: bound to have many users affected in the same way.

It's a tit for tat kind of reputation system, which is fucked. On the flip side, it is too easy to gain trust too. Really not sure of any solution (but whatever the old system was, seemed to have less flaws)? Not sure, maybe now more people add more people to trusted lists, so many more people have reputation building or destroying power.

Other instances:
- to be added, please comment any you find too.

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March 20, 2019, 08:55:36 AM
#2

Everyone have their own right to give feedback to anyone if they want,so we can't say this is broken.

But you can see if there is a feedback left by a DT member without any reason then it will be overcome by other members feedback once you can convince other DT members that you are trusted enough.

When someone is doing retaliatory feedback then you can appeal it to theymos,he is the only person can blacklist the DT1 members manually.

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March 20, 2019, 09:01:02 AM
Merited by philipma1957 (1), nutildah (1)
#3

I think that it is almost impossible to create a good trust system - look at the problems that Ebay has with theirs. One solution is to have a full time staff member to create and monitor a trust system. This would be rather like a credit rating, but there is a cost associated with this, and also the risk of legal action over some rankings. The other problem is that whilst account sales are allowed, then you cannot rely on the current trust rating for a sold account.

The best use of the trust system is for members to decide on a couple of members they respect, and to see who they trust in a trade or exchange.

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March 20, 2019, 09:07:38 AM
#4

Really not sure of any solution
The only thing you can do at this moment, is to create your own Trust list. If enough users do that, DT will have less power over them.
However, I think the majority is fine with the current trust system, and you too haven't create your own list yet. You've been included and excluded by many users, including Admin:
Quote
Trust list for: marcotheminer (4 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2019-03-16_Sat_05.38h)
Back to index

marcotheminer Trusts:
-

marcotheminer Distrusts:
-


marcotheminer is Trusted by:
1. PsychoticBoy (7 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. Snail2 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
3. Zich (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
4. aurel57 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
5. nkocevar (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
6. non2 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
7. baby222 (1 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
8. gkv9 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
9. ciocgun (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
10. oppahdoggystyle (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
11. Ignacia (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
12. togesix (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
13. Sickler (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
14. liteon (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
15. irfan_pak10 (61 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
16. rikrikrik (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
17. bitcoinmar (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
18. EZ-as-pi (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)

~marcotheminer is Distrusted by:
1. theymos (DT1! (46) 4050 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. JusticeForYou (21 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
3. BadBear (5 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
4. Bicknellski (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
5. frank0929 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
6. shitaifan2013 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
7. Mitchell (DT1! (24) 205 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
8. koshgel (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
9. mentalpanda (2 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
10. pandacoin (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
11. cakir (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
12. troleybüs (1 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
13. jackfruit (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
14. Grand_Voyageur (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
15. n3o111 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
16. termo$ (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
17. coinlocket$ (DT1! (18) 778 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)


Source: LoyceV's Trust list viewer.
Get your own Trust list in BBCode at loyce.club/trust.

In short: choose who's judgement you trust and create your own Trust list Smiley

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March 20, 2019, 09:16:25 AM
#5

The trust that I found that led me to this post (apart from my obvious circumstances) was left by yahoo62278 on Thule: "This user has some issues. Dealing with him may lead to personal vendettas or major smear attempts."
Seems fine to me. That is indeed a valid reason (of which there are many) to consider Thule to be untrustworthy. I fail to see any problem here, certainly nothing to conclude that the trust system as a whole is "broken".

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March 20, 2019, 09:23:29 AM
#6

This thread wouldn't exist without those new negatives that you've gotten. Nothing is broken, sort-of.

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March 20, 2019, 09:30:13 AM
#7

If you consistently repay loans late then you have to accept that the neutral ratings are fair. Potential lenders might not be happy getting paid late & I doubt you tell them before the loan Ill probably repay late. If you did it might determine wether theyre willing to lend to you or not so absolutely the neutral ratings are fair.

The negative ratings are determined by who has given them, I can see why some have left you red trust but I deemed neutral as enough for now.

Just stop repaying loans late & you wont have to worry.

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March 20, 2019, 01:48:03 PM
#8

Really not sure of any solution
The only thing you can do at this moment, is to create your own Trust list. If enough users do that, DT will have less power over them.
However, I think the majority is fine with the current trust system, and you too haven't create your own list yet. You've been included and excluded by many users, including Admin:
Quote
Trust list for: marcotheminer (4 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2019-03-16_Sat_05.38h)
Back to index

marcotheminer Trusts:
-

marcotheminer Distrusts:
-


marcotheminer is Trusted by:
1. PsychoticBoy (7 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. Snail2 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
3. Zich (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
4. aurel57 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
5. nkocevar (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
6. non2 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
7. baby222 (1 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
8. gkv9 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
9. ciocgun (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
10. oppahdoggystyle (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
11. Ignacia (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
12. togesix (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
13. Sickler (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
14. liteon (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
15. irfan_pak10 (61 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
16. rikrikrik (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
17. bitcoinmar (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
18. EZ-as-pi (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)

~marcotheminer is Distrusted by:
1. theymos (DT1! (46) 4050 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. JusticeForYou (21 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
3. BadBear (5 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
4. Bicknellski (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
5. frank0929 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
6. shitaifan2013 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
7. Mitchell (DT1! (24) 205 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
8. koshgel (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
9. mentalpanda (2 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
10. pandacoin (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
11. cakir (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
12. troleybüs (1 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
13. jackfruit (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
14. Grand_Voyageur (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
15. n3o111 (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
16. termo$ (0 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)
17. coinlocket$ (DT1! (18) 778 Merit earned) (Trust feedback) (Trust list) (BPIP)


Source: LoyceV's Trust list viewer.
Get your own Trust list in BBCode at loyce.club/trust.

In short: choose who's judgement you trust and create your own Trust list Smiley
As long as the d remains in DT creating a custom trust list is worthless.

Even those that have custom trust lists still use DT as a reference to determine if they will do business with you because it is shown by default to potential customers.

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March 20, 2019, 01:59:00 PM
#9

Just expressing my thoughts, trying to NOT come from a biased point of view (though currently, I am victim of these problems too).
Oh, come on.  Your opinion and your creation of this thread is completely biased, and the only reason you're saying anything is because of the red trust you recently got.

The problem in this case isn't the trust system, though there are certainly problems with it.  The problem here is that members finally called bullshit on your late loan repayment practices and lousy attitude toward both the lender and the community, which I've already addressed in at least one other thread that dealt with the incident.  You can't expect to hold someone's money hostage with excuses and delays and not pay a penalty for that.  The problem is you in this case, not the trust system.

That said, I may consider revision of my feedback at a later date, just as I do with anyone who has learned from their mistakes.  I'm not sure you realize where you went wrong, however.

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March 20, 2019, 04:25:38 PM
Last edit: March 20, 2019, 04:38:10 PM by cryptohunter
#10

Well let's consider the observable events  - Want evidence to substantiate any of these statements then just ask.


1. what kind of people are saying the trust system works well and no need for a review.

a/ A proven liar, scammer, and one implicated in extortion and shady escrow practises.
b/ A proven sneaky, greedy, racist trolling sig spammer sock puppet user who is desperate for btc dust.
c/ Quite possibly the worst merit abuser on this board who just slathers political merit to those in "*the gang"

* the gang is a bunch of merit cyclers who also collude on the inclusions and exclusions on the trust list. Simply pull up their fans and recipients on the bpip or dig deeper to their top 20 or 30 lists these cyclers are riddled inside those top lists. They all rush to each other defence and attack as gang on threads where their "power" is questioned. (like here)

2./ What kind of persons are demonstrating it observably does not work

a/ persons that have voiced the truth about DT's prior observable wrong doing - and got red trust
b/ persons that were accused of being other members (with no evidence) - and got red trust
c/ other NON scammers - got red trust.


Merit is the real cancer here on this board. It is just most people are too dumb to understand how merit (now trust also for some unknown reason) crushes free speech whilst enabling and small group of proven untrustworthy individuals to gain power and control others PAID2POST and Trading behaviour.  This is an observable fact.

So in short - not only does it not work because you now have a bunch of red scores for things not only NOT for scamming. You have red trust being given to those who are telling the truth and highlighting OBSERVABLE wrongdoing by individuals that should never be in a trust position.  So we created systems that are misleading and broken and as a nice side effect crush free speech.

You want to dispute anything I have said?? Bring the debate here.

TL/DR

Both systems of control are not only broken and wide open to gaming (which is actually incentivized and rewarded )they crush free speech (the worst thing that could ever happen here).



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March 20, 2019, 04:43:37 PM
#11

I had a feeling it wouldn't take long for cryptohunter to show up in this thread.

Quite possibly the worst merit abuser on this board who just slathers political merit to those in "*the gang"
You're talking about me, right? That's good. I was beginning to think you'd lost interest in me.

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March 20, 2019, 05:00:59 PM
#12

I had a feeling it wouldn't take long for cryptohunter to show up in this thread.

Quite possibly the worst merit abuser on this board who just slathers political merit to those in "*the gang"
You're talking about me, right? That's good. I was beginning to think you'd lost interest in me.

Ha, well I knew you could not fail to recognise your actions were being accurately described.




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March 20, 2019, 05:04:17 PM
Merited by bones261 (1)
#13

There's just a few bad eggs in the default trust system.  It's functioning mostly as expected.  In time I am sure we will see more improvements.

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March 20, 2019, 05:17:38 PM
#14

Ha, well I knew you could not fail to recognise your actions were being accurately described.
It's not my fault I'm the worst merit abuser. There are just so many others who are far better at it than I am.

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March 20, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
#15

I wouldn't say its broken as we have the Reputation board ( and Scam accusation) to talk about the negative trust that has been given to you. I have been hanging out on those threads for a while now and to tell you the truth a lot of negative trust that has been given wrongly to members has been either removed or changed to neutral. Mostly misunderstandings as well as the problem being fixed is the most common way you get your negative trust be removed in your trust summary.

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March 20, 2019, 05:25:29 PM
#16

maybe now more people add more people to trusted lists, so many more people have reputation building or destroying power
I think you have a point regarding the increased amount of people on default trust. I would increase the minimum required to have light and dark green trust.
I'm not sure about requiring 2 negatives instead of one to make a profile red too. An option would be to make it red right away (in case a scammer in action was spotted) but make it neutral again after a while if no other trusted negative is left.

The system is definitely not perfect but it's much better than no system at all or no default trust list at all.

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March 20, 2019, 06:57:01 PM
#17

maybe now more people add more people to trusted lists, so many more people have reputation building or destroying power
I think you have a point regarding the increased amount of people on default trust. I would increase the minimum required to have light and dark green trust.
I'm not sure about requiring 2 negatives instead of one to make a profile red too. An option would be to make it red right away (in case a scammer in action was spotted) but make it neutral again after a while if no other trusted negative is left.

The system is definitely not perfect but it's much better than no system at all or no default trust list at all.

Can you list the pros and cons that you factored into this final statement, because that seems quite doubtful bordering on ludicrous.

You can not possibly allow the formations of sub admin level control systems that are wide open to being gamed, provide reward for gaming them and allow them to crush free speech unanswered.

I'm interested in hearing you out anyway.

You are all focusing on TRUST too much the REAL issue that is stopping the TRUST system from being decentralised is the broken and cycled merit system which is now apparently the TRUST system too.

Bring in some REAL decentralisation (by enabling a few people outside of the observable GANG) and watch these people get kept in line. However, letting them move the key requirements to something THEY control was a terrible error of judgement.

I mean if DT's are not willing to keep to Theymos proposal of red trust being reserved for Scammers or those STRONGLY likely to scam then what is the point of it? I think theymos creates these decentralised systems that sadly rely on people NOT acting selfishly and all doing what he says even when he never backs it up with action. Well, that is never going to work.

The only hope is that as TIME drags on, more and more people will reach the 250 shitty cycled junk merits key positions and they will eventually through mass of numbers stop colluding as one bunch so successfully and efficiently. EVENTUALLY DT's  will be kept in line to the point they will get red trusted or perhaps removed. I don't think that will be that useful and whilst we wait free speech is crushed and we are far far far from an optimal environment here.

You could not have a worse start to it all (it is infested with scum that have no care of observable wrongdoing, abuse and gaming it to the max) if it EVER does manage to be more net positive than the net negative aspects and tensions it creates.

Better to have one single entity that sets some clear criteria and kicks abusers off than this drawn out experiment with the board.  

Merit is always doomed sadly. To make that some kind of objective, fair and reliable metric is impossible because people simply do not have the same capacity to recognise the TRUE value of a post. Just keep that for preventing bots and account farmers.

Meta is basically 6 groups

1. those that know the systems are broken but pretend they are not so they can keep gaming them and retaining the rewards.

2. those that know the systems are broken but think if they keep feltching the abusers of those systems long enough they will get to abuse them too.

3. those that know the systems are broken but too scared to speak up against the abusers or want to ass kiss theymos because he is the warden of the forum and that he may be offended if the attempts to decentralise control don't work out that well.

4. me - who wants to fair and transparent system for all posters, whom are free to say what they want as long as they bring a sensible reasonable supporting case for it.  An environment where just because your views are unpopular they will not be cause to see your account ruined, your paid2post opportunities taken away and your ability to trade crushed.

5. Theymos, who wants to see if it is possible to decentralise control of an anonymous posting forum in a way that prevents net negative behaviour without having serious net negative side effects. Who himself is surrounded by tainted feedback from those 1st 3 groups.

6. Those that have no real clue.

Someone smart here once told me....  I hate those that kiss my ass the most, they are the first ones to turn on you.

















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March 20, 2019, 07:14:53 PM
#18

Can you list the pros and cons that you factored into this final statement, because that seems quite doubtful bordering on ludicrous.
The utility of the trust system is quite obvious. I'm not sure if your question is real.
Without any trust system at all, scammers could keep scamming without restrictions, without even using a new account. Without any trust the only thing newbies would see is rank, so a scammer can get a Legendary account and scam a lot of users.
Without any default trust list at all, users would need to set up their own list. This makes perfect sense for experienced users who know whom to trust. But newbies don't know anybody so they would either add anyone to their list (randomly or Legendaries assuming that means the user can be trusted) or nobody. At least a list of suggestions of trusted users is required.

In fact, default trust should be shown even to non-registered users. I hope theymos does that soon.

greeklogos
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March 20, 2019, 08:06:24 PM
#19

It's just like with merits - everything is up to person who give you positive or negative trust. I think the system works, but of course there are some exceptions when a person simply mean to the other one. 
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March 20, 2019, 08:08:29 PM
#20

Can you list the pros and cons that you factored into this final statement, because that seems quite doubtful bordering on ludicrous.
The utility of the trust system is quite obvious. I'm not sure if your question is real.
Without any trust system at all, scammers could keep scamming without restrictions, without even using a new account. Without any trust the only thing newbies would see is rank, so a scammer can get a Legendary account and scam a lot of users.
Without any default trust list at all, users would need to set up their own list. This makes perfect sense for experienced users who know whom to trust. But newbies don't know anybody so they would either add anyone to their list (randomly or Legendaries assuming that means the user can be trusted) or nobody. At least a list of suggestions of trusted users is required.

In fact, default trust should be shown even to non-registered users. I hope theymos does that soon.

 I think you are focusing on the instances where it is useful and missing the greater and more far reaching/dangerous issues.

Things are a LOT more complex than you may realise.

To find the REAL net gain of the DT system/merit you must take all possible influences it has over the board and its members.
You are not considering
1. The implications for free speech (HUGE)
2. The false sense of security and positive or neutral score can render
3. The fact that people should study a persons entire history here before trading not just be lazy and rely on a misleading score.
4. The damage to accounts that are not scammers but got red trust via abuse.
5. The incentive and reward to abuse it.
6. The possible benefits of a different policing system

DT/Merit is misleading, VERY dangerous for an open discussion forum, and it's whack a mole success is limited really.

We could go into a deep debate on each point. I am up for that. Just find my thread of the year here in meta and post on it. I will respond.




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