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Author Topic: [2019-03-28] The Economist: Bitcoin revival unlikely....  (Read 377 times)
bbc.reporter
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April 02, 2019, 01:19:05 AM
 #21

@Carlton Banks. I know the question is not original, however, was there a satisfying and final solution? I reckon none and the approach accepted by many, because there might be no solution, is to wait and see on how the fee market works which is not very satisfying.


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April 02, 2019, 09:01:09 AM
 #22

I know the question is not original, however, was there a satisfying and final solution?

You could judge that for yourself, I can't tell you your opinion on something you haven't looked for (and because you're so interested, you'll be really motivated to look, I'm rather confused as to why you've not done so yet)

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April 03, 2019, 01:52:54 AM
 #23

@Carlton Banks. I have my opinion, however, it's another matter.

I was asking what the other people's opinions are on if fees alone can sustain bitcoin's security. To some of the people who might say yes, I reckon they might not be completely honest with themselves.


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April 04, 2019, 06:52:51 AM
Merited by bbc.reporter (1)
 #24

I know the question is not original, however, was there a satisfying and final solution?

You could judge that for yourself, I can't tell you your opinion on something you haven't looked for (and because you're so interested, you'll be really motivated to look, I'm rather confused as to why you've not done so yet)

Why don't you explain him what your perspective on this matter is? We're here to help each other out and share knowledge, which you are definitely capable of and could have done already. It might not be an original question in your book, but what is an original question that we see pop up on this forum nowadays? On top of that, opinions can change the further we see Bitcoin progress, so it's still a valid question in the end.

He somewhat shared his concern, which you think is not valid, so what's your vision when it comes to the fees and the sustainability of the POW aspect of Bitcoin in the long run?

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April 04, 2019, 08:38:05 AM
Merited by Carlton Banks (1)
 #25

The Bitcoin price has had bubbles and crashes many times over the last 8.5 years and will continue to do that over the next 100 years.

Nothing new here, just a typical journalist, copying many others over the past 6 or 7 years, trying to make a name by posting useless crap about Bitcoin.

Move along, nothing new to see here.

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April 04, 2019, 08:41:48 AM
 #26

Why don't you explain him what your perspective on this matter is?

Because I know from experience that it's a long discussion, and I don't want to have the same conversation again

Why not ask the 'what if someone starts guessing private keys? why can't they just do that?' question. same category IMO

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April 04, 2019, 06:14:06 PM
 #27

Why the hell would anyone care what they say? this is only their opinion, if we look at the world we will realize that everything has a good and bad side. The banks spend a lot of energy with several agencies that have in many corners, the extraction of gold destroy the nature and has men that intoxicate in this process, but little is spoken of that bad side of the gold. That's why we have to ignore news like these

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April 05, 2019, 02:37:53 AM
 #28

Why don't you explain him what your perspective on this matter is?

Because I know from experience that it's a long discussion, and I don't want to have the same conversation again

Why not ask the 'what if someone starts guessing private keys? why can't they just do that?' question. same category IMO

Agreed, I also understand why you do not want to go on another deep discussion on an old issue. However, it is an issue that has never found a solution and the questions about its sustainability will certainly return.

Also, the issue is not in the same category as asking what if someone starts guessing private keys. That is a silly comparison.

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April 05, 2019, 09:22:26 AM
 #29

However, it is an issue that has never found a solution and the questions about its sustainability will certainly return.

And how do you know that? From not reading previous threads about it? Roll Eyes

Vires in numeris
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April 06, 2019, 12:10:34 AM
 #30

@Carlton Banks. For the reason that bitcoin's security being sustained by the fee market alone is still arguable and will continue to be arguable.

Do you reckon that bitcoin can sustain itself from fees alone forever? Your answer does not matter because it will be arguably wrong or arguably correct. But arguable nonetheless.

That is why you did good by escaping and refusing to answer a question that has riddled everyone.

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April 06, 2019, 09:21:24 AM
 #31

Your answer does not matter because it will be arguably wrong or arguably correct. But arguable nonetheless.

That's true. And I've already said I'm not arguing with someone who refuses to do even some basic research, so quit trying to draw me into one

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April 07, 2019, 12:50:30 AM
 #32

Is the basic research knowing that the miners will be paid 100% in transaction fees when all the coins eventually are mined? Some argue that it is sustainable because miners can choose which transactions they want to include in the block.

It is the fee market argument. It will work if there was only one coin. However, the people who argue for it refuse to acknowledge that there are other cryptcoins that are competing for lower fees in the fee market.

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April 07, 2019, 07:42:25 AM
 #33

Is the basic research knowing that the miners will be paid 100% in transaction fees when all the coins eventually are mined? Some argue that it is sustainable because miners can choose which transactions they want to include in the block.

It is the fee market argument. It will work if there was only one coin. However, the people who argue for it refuse to acknowledge that there are other cryptcoins that are competing for lower fees in the fee market.


Bitcoin also have a second layer solution that competes with other Alt coins with lower fees and it is called the Lightning Network.  Tongue  Bitcoin developers are not sitting on their hands, waiting for other Alt coins to take it's crown, they are constantly adding new features to compete with these coins.  Wink

Bitcoin miners have two options to generate a income now, 1. Mining for the Block rewards and also transaction fees, 2. Hosting a LN node and gaining some small income from that too.  Cheesy

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April 07, 2019, 07:50:49 AM
 #34

It is the fee market argument. It will work if there was only one coin. However, the people who argue for it refuse to acknowledge that there are other cryptcoins that are competing for lower fees in the fee market.

lower fees doesn't equate to equal security. if people want to opt for shitcoin security then they'll keep getting 51% attacked as we often see today. bitcoin's level of reliability is unparalleled and i think history shows there is a steady and growing demand for it, even within a sea of altcoins that are cheaper to use.

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April 07, 2019, 09:31:00 AM
 #35

Bitcoin also have a second layer solution that competes with other Alt coins with lower fees and it is called the Lightning Network.
I don't see it as competition at all because altcoins by default don't stand a chance against Bitcoin in that regard. The only thing altcoins have going for them is that they pump harder than Bitcoin. No one cares about their lower fees. People's end game is to convert back to Bitcoin and build their way up to being an elite holder of the future.

Bitcoin miners have two options to generate a income now, 1. Mining for the Block rewards and also transaction fees, 2. Hosting a LN node and gaining some small income from that too.  Cheesy
If miners end up dedicating their block rewards to Lightning it will even further reduce the availability of spot supply and inflate the price organically. I however don't think the largest farms (e.g. Bitmain, ViaBTC, BTC.TOP) will add liquidity to a layer that will combat their own business model.

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April 07, 2019, 11:04:20 AM
 #36

~It will work if there was only one coin. However, the people who argue for it refuse to acknowledge that there are other cryptcoins that are competing for lower fees in the fee market.


Let's imagine a close to real life situation. Businessman1 wants to transfer $1,000 to Businessman2, and in order to save $3, the amount sufficient for your transaction to be confirmed in less than 35 minutes(but most likely in 15 minutes), he buys an altcoin, ALT888, convinces Businessman2 to accept $1,000 worth of that altcoin, transfers the money in 30 seconds instead of 15 minutes and pays $0.00001 as transaction fee instead of $3. Now, of course, as @1Referee rightly pointed out, no one wants to hold an ALT888, they want to convert it to BTC right away. I may be wrong but I think the process of conversion can take more than 15 minutes in time and more than $3 in money.

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bbc.reporter
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April 08, 2019, 11:54:06 PM
 #37

Is the basic research knowing that the miners will be paid 100% in transaction fees when all the coins eventually are mined? Some argue that it is sustainable because miners can choose which transactions they want to include in the block.

It is the fee market argument. It will work if there was only one coin. However, the people who argue for it refuse to acknowledge that there are other cryptcoins that are competing for lower fees in the fee market.


Bitcoin also have a second layer solution that competes with other Alt coins with lower fees and it is called the Lightning Network.  Tongue  Bitcoin developers are not sitting on their hands, waiting for other Alt coins to take it's crown, they are constantly adding new features to compete with these coins.  Wink

Bitcoin miners have two options to generate a income now, 1. Mining for the Block rewards and also transaction fees, 2. Hosting a LN node and gaining some small income from that too.  Cheesy

However the Lightning Network also competes versus the miners for fees.

It is the fee market argument. It will work if there was only one coin. However, the people who argue for it refuse to acknowledge that there are other cryptcoins that are competing for lower fees in the fee market.

lower fees doesn't equate to equal security. if people want to opt for shitcoin security then they'll keep getting 51% attacked as we often see today. bitcoin's level of reliability is unparalleled and i think history shows there is a steady and growing demand for it, even within a sea of altcoins that are cheaper to use.

I reckon you should read my thread and try to understand the issue. This is not about the low fees. It is about the opposite. If fees are very high, there might be less people using bitcoin.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5101017.msg49375019#msg49375019

@Betwrong. In your fictional example no one wants to hold the other coin. That is not what occurs in our world, however.

In any case, part of why I am asking and arguing is because of grin's monetary policy.

Tail emission may be required for long term stability

Currencies with set supply are extremely experimental. Miners likely need incentives to secure the chain beyond only fees. Note: currency deflation is historically not a good thing.

Sound money has more to do with transparent emission than a capped supply

One of the pitfalls of monetary inflation in fiat currencies is governments can inflate the monetary supply on a whim. This has been used to disastrous effect throughout history. A non-sovereign, open source, consensus based currency solves this issue by making the emission policy well known ahead of time, and makes it difficult if not impossible to change. Based on this definition of soundness, Grin is just as much "sound money" as Bitcoin. Removing central authorities with arbitrary control is much more what makes Bitcoin important than the arbitrary amount of its capped supply.

Nick Szabo commented on Bitcoin's fixed supply that "a wide variety of supply algos would have worked, as long as they are predictable. […] Security/trust min[imization] is responsible for more of the value".


https://github.com/mimblewimble/docs/wiki/Monetary-Policy

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figmentofmyass
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April 09, 2019, 05:12:38 AM
 #38

It is the fee market argument. It will work if there was only one coin. However, the people who argue for it refuse to acknowledge that there are other cryptcoins that are competing for lower fees in the fee market.
lower fees doesn't equate to equal security. if people want to opt for shitcoin security then they'll keep getting 51% attacked as we often see today. bitcoin's level of reliability is unparalleled and i think history shows there is a steady and growing demand for it, even within a sea of altcoins that are cheaper to use.

I reckon you should read my thread and try to understand the issue. This is not about the low fees. It is about the opposite. If fees are very high, there might be less people using bitcoin.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5101017.msg49375019#msg49375019

"lower fees" refers to "lower fees to use altcoins". that's precisely what you're discussing, is it not?

your argument is that high fees will deter usage of bitcoin (in favor of altcoins). i think all evidence so far---such as the positive correlation between price and fees---disagrees with you. i also think your argument doesn't account for the fact that no altcoin can measure up to bitcoin's security and reliability. that's what people are willing to pay much higher fees for.

i read your thread and responded there ages ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5101017.msg49493642#msg49493642

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April 09, 2019, 10:46:40 AM
 #39

However the Lightning Network also competes versus the miners for fees.
I doubt it's going to have much of an impact at all. LN will cause the hop fees to decline because of the competitive nature of the fee market. If you charge too much in fees, you'll be ignored so you have to offer super low fees.

If we look at the main chain fees, there is a very limited amount of block space available with a continuously increasing demand. In other words, people and services will up bid their fees to get that 1-3 block confirmation priority.

Big block miners shouldn't complain about anything with how high the fees are, and deep down I am sure they actually like it. Their only incentive is to make money, and that's exactly what they are doing with Bitcoin.

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April 10, 2019, 12:58:04 AM
 #40

It is the fee market argument. It will work if there was only one coin. However, the people who argue for it refuse to acknowledge that there are other cryptcoins that are competing for lower fees in the fee market.
lower fees doesn't equate to equal security. if people want to opt for shitcoin security then they'll keep getting 51% attacked as we often see today. bitcoin's level of reliability is unparalleled and i think history shows there is a steady and growing demand for it, even within a sea of altcoins that are cheaper to use.

I reckon you should read my thread and try to understand the issue. This is not about the low fees. It is about the opposite. If fees are very high, there might be less people using bitcoin.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5101017.msg49375019#msg49375019

"lower fees" refers to "lower fees to use altcoins". that's precisely what you're discussing, is it not?

your argument is that high fees will deter usage of bitcoin (in favor of altcoins). i think all evidence so far---such as the positive correlation between price and fees---disagrees with you. i also think your argument doesn't account for the fact that no altcoin can measure up to bitcoin's security and reliability. that's what people are willing to pay much higher fees for.

i read your thread and responded there ages ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5101017.msg49493642#msg49493642

It disagrees with me right now, yes, however if all the coins have been mined, I reckon it would be time to revisit this issue.

Also, I am not questioning bitcoin's reliability. I am discussing bitcoin's monetary policy and how it can sustain its security from fees alone.

@BitHodler. I reckon the Lightning Network would be similar to altcoins competing versus bitcoin for transactions.

In any case, I would like everyone to read grin's monetary policy.

https://github.com/mimblewimble/docs/wiki/Monetary-Policy

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