Bitcoin Forum
December 05, 2016, 10:42:59 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Which is the best pool for mining? - A guide for choosing the right pool  (Read 138380 times)
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


Gerald Davis


View Profile
November 10, 2011, 08:10:33 PM
 #61

Yes, I will move on. Reward system was just one of many parts of the guide and PPLNS is just one reward system of many. It seems like the only people complaining so much about errors are those who have vested interest in PPLNS. I don't have a problem with that, but I do believe my time is better spent elsewhere. Gotta draw the line somewhere.

No you just simply ignored that your explanation of score based and proportional based pools are equally wrong.  You also failed to include the risks of PPS so hopefully no miners gets burned if a PPS pool goes down.

Quote
Condemn the guide all you want, but I know it will help newcomers make a little more sense of the quite daunting task of choosing the right pool for them.

No it will just reinforce false mining urban legends which will require hundreds of post to correct. 
1480934579
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480934579

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480934579
Reply with quote  #2

1480934579
Report to moderator
"You Asked For Change, We Gave You Coins" -- casascius
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480934579
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480934579

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480934579
Reply with quote  #2

1480934579
Report to moderator
DrHaribo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1960


Bitminter.com Operator


View Profile WWW
November 10, 2011, 08:15:41 PM
 #62

Wrap your minds around this:[/b]

Greedy Pool OP + PPLNS (or Time/Score Based) & FAST DECAY + ROLLING TIMEOUTS -or- SLOW GETWORK PERFORMANCE (simply helping 'run out the clock') = ...... Wink You get the picture.

There's no timeouts in PPLNS. And there's no way to set N that gives the pool op any more money. With zero-fee PPLNS the reward system is only about deciding what percentage of the money to give to each miner - you pay out 100% in any case. It only affects the pool op this way: if you create a fair system, you get more miners.

If you stay with PPLNS or Prop you are losing out :

-prone to tons of variance and bad luck and long rounds

You forgot to add: prone to good luck, short rounds and big payouts. But seriously, no reward system is prone to good or bad luck. On average you will have average luck and get average pay.

-prone to pool hoppers that will bend and screw you over

What? There's no way to improve expected income by pool hopping a properly implemented PPLNS pool. Not without being able to predict the future.

There is a lot of superstition in this thread.

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
bitlane
Internet detective
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


I heart thebaron


View Profile
November 11, 2011, 09:12:36 PM
 #63

Love that PPLNS Wink

....I would even add a sentence where the belief that PPLNS or score based pools "punish" miners is an urban legend.

.....Score based and PPLNS would be the worst if you will be using them for variable amounts of time.



.....PPLNS don't punish intermittent miners.


....pool is PPLNS which would brutally punish you for leaving during a block (much like Bitminter).

Anything else to add ?

DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


Gerald Davis


View Profile
November 11, 2011, 09:14:43 PM
 #64

Its called I was wrong.  It is a common myth, I am not the only one who has accepted and repeated it without evidence. 

I was corrected and learned from it.  Thanks for the links I will be sure to edit them to not continue to spread incorrect information.
DrHaribo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1960


Bitminter.com Operator


View Profile WWW
November 12, 2011, 02:24:26 AM
 #65

Anything else to add ?

Some scary facts have surfaced in this thread. Let me summarize:
  • PPLNS & score-based systems make it easier for a greedy pool op to steal from miners by adjusting a timeout or decay rate
  • PPLNS can be abused by pool hoppers to steal from other miners
  • PPLNS is prone to bad luck
  • There is proof somewhere that new reward systems steal from unsuspecting miners
  • Meni Rosenfeld's mathematical formulas are biased opinions
  • PPLNS is more problematic than most reward systems
  • When a group of people make new bitcoins they can't all be winners

If Meni Rosenfeld's research is all wrong and those points above are true, I seriously need to consider other reward systems. At least we are finally getting this properly documented for all newcomers to see.

Can you guys help me out by explaining the logic behind the points above?

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
bitlane
Internet detective
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


I heart thebaron


View Profile
November 12, 2011, 03:12:02 AM
 #66

Anything else to add ?

Some scary facts have surfaced in this thread. Let me summarize:
  • PPLNS & score-based systems make it easier for a greedy pool op to steal from miners by adjusting a timeout or decay rate
  • PPLNS can be abused by pool hoppers to steal from other miners
  • PPLNS is prone to bad luck
  • There is proof somewhere that new reward systems steal from unsuspecting miners
  • Meni Rosenfeld's mathematical formulas are biased opinions
  • PPLNS is more problematic than most reward systems
  • When a group of people make new bitcoins they can't all be winners

If Meni Rosenfeld's research is all wrong and those points above are true, I seriously need to consider other reward systems. At least we are finally getting this properly documented for all newcomers to see.

Can you guys help me out by explaining the logic behind the points above?


You are an idiot.

Ya just had to run to your Girl friend's defence, after he was caught with his foot in his mouth above.

You forgot - PPLNS is for chickenshit Pool OPs that can't afford to run a proper PPS setup and skirt the issue by offering NO FEES......LMAO.


eleuthria
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1750


BTC Guild Owner


View Profile WWW
November 12, 2011, 03:17:34 AM
 #67

You are an idiot.
Ya just had to run to your Girl friend's defence, after he was caught with his foot in his mouth above.
You forgot - PPLNS is for chickenshit Pool OPs that can't afford to run a proper PPS setup and skirt the issue by offering NO FEES......LMAO.

PPLNS is a fine system.  Over the long run a user gets the same rewards under PPLNS as they would under proportional, while having a system that can't be hopped.  Intermittent miners will receive a higher than normal variance, but it can swing either way (massively positive if they stop just as the pool hits a string of luck, massively less if they stop and the pool never finds a block before they expire).

R.I.P. BTC Guild, 2011 - 2015.
BTC Guild Forum Thread
bitlane
Internet detective
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


I heart thebaron


View Profile
November 12, 2011, 03:23:50 AM
 #68

You are an idiot.
Ya just had to run to your Girl friend's defence, after he was caught with his foot in his mouth above.
You forgot - PPLNS is for chickenshit Pool OPs that can't afford to run a proper PPS setup and skirt the issue by offering NO FEES......LMAO.

PPLNS is a fine system.  Over the long run a user gets the same rewards under PPLNS as they would under proportional, while having a system that can't be hopped.  Intermittent miners will receive a higher than normal variance, but it can swing either way (massively positive if they stop just as the pool hits a string of luck, massively less if they stop and the pool never finds a block before they expire).

I'm sure it is a fine system, but frankly I am sick and fucking tired of being told that I am somehow crazy for paying 5% for the opportunity to mine at the pool of my choosing currently, because I prefer PPS....and somehow PPLNS is the 'Payment System Of The Gods'....and is FREE...blah...blahty fuckin' blah....

DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


Gerald Davis


View Profile
November 12, 2011, 03:57:43 AM
 #69

I'm sure it is a fine system, but frankly I am sick and fucking tired of being told that I am somehow crazy for paying 5% for the opportunity to mine at the pool of my choosing currently, because I prefer PPS....and somehow PPLNS is the 'Payment System Of The Gods'....and is FREE...blah...blahty fuckin' blah....

Nobody said that but here you go ...

DrHaribo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1960


Bitminter.com Operator


View Profile WWW
November 12, 2011, 03:58:55 AM
 #70

You are an idiot.

That's why I need help understanding these things.

Ya just had to run to your Girl friend's defence, after he was caught with his foot in his mouth above.

Looks like I forgot to add one thing to the list:
  • Being wrong, admitting it and improving oneself is the most terrible thing a person can do

I am sick and fucking tired of being told that I am somehow crazy for paying 5% for the opportunity to mine at the pool of my choosing currently, because I prefer PPS

Noone is saying you're crazy. PPS has the lowest possible variance: none. If you want to pay extra for that, that's your choice. Many users prefer PPS even if they have to pay a little extra, and I may implement it in my own pool when I just get the time for it.

There's also nothing wrong with supporting your favorite pool - it costs time and money to run a pool. Even though I run a zero-fee pool myself, I agree with you that there are more important things when choosing a pool than whether it has a tiny fee or none.

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
bitlane
Internet detective
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


I heart thebaron


View Profile
November 12, 2011, 04:07:35 AM
 #71


Noone is saying you're crazy. PPS has the lowest possible variance: none. If you want to pay extra for that, that's your choice. Many users prefer PPS even if they have to pay a little extra, and I may implement it in my own pool when I just get the time for it.

OMFG....EVERYONE posts that I am stupid for paying 5% when I suggest a STABLE PPS POOL, then follow it up with a FREE PPLNS 'plug'.

ME:
I pay 5% Fees to mine PPS.

THEM:
You are crazy, use a FREE PPLNS Pool.

ME:
I like having my money available in real time.

THEM:
I would rather save the 5% Fee and wait as long as it takes.

ME:
...and risk not having the FREE pool around, or enough miners to cover your payout ?

THEM:
well, I consider that acceptable loss, and will be less than spending 5% now.


If people didn't have such a hardon for PPLNS and tout it as being the greatest thing going (mostly pool OPs as it were), then perhaps I wouldn't have such a big chip on my shoulder AGAINST IT.

I like paying for a service, because it ensures that the service will stay financially viable and give enough incentive for the OP to maintain the pool, hopefully with a few sheckles in his/her pocket for doing so.

You always seem to get what you pay for....nothing free is ever good in my books.
The only thing in life that is free and any good is pussy......and if you have ever been married, then you will agree that even that is hardly free.....lol

Not once in the last couple weeks have I named my pool and I most likely WILL NOT name it (to keep me from looking like a fan boy).
I simply stated that I pay 5% and it is the best 5% spent in BTC mining.....and worth every bitcent.

DrHaribo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1960


Bitminter.com Operator


View Profile WWW
November 12, 2011, 04:52:58 AM
 #72

OMFG....EVERYONE posts that I am stupid for paying 5% when I suggest a STABLE PPS POOL, then follow it up with a FREE PPLNS 'plug'.

I wasn't trying to plug PPLNS. My only goal in this thread was to correct mistaken beliefs about PPLNS so they don't end up in a guide for newbies. I don't want miners scared away from my pool based on things that are simply not true.

I like paying for a service, because it ensures that the service will stay financially viable and give enough incentive for the OP to maintain the pool, hopefully with a few sheckles in his/her pocket for doing so.

This makes perfect sense. I think the big demand in some internet communities that everything should be given away for free may not be healthy in the long run. Certainly this seems wrong for the bitcoin community. I mean, bitcoin is about money. Hello?

Anyway, that's getting off topic...

It's a good thing having a concise guide that covers important issues about mining. When I started I found it all pretty confusing at first.

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
November 12, 2011, 06:20:29 AM
 #73

Quote
OMFG....EVERYONE posts that I am stupid for paying 5% when I suggest a STABLE PPS POOL, then follow it up with a FREE PPLNS 'plug'.

No, we don't think you're stupid, we just think you're a tool.  A great tool, mind you... but still a tool.  You do good work, though, so it's ok.  You pay 5%!  The best tool around!

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
bitlane
Internet detective
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


I heart thebaron


View Profile
November 12, 2011, 06:32:23 AM
 #74

Quote
OMFG....EVERYONE posts that I am stupid for paying 5% when I suggest a STABLE PPS POOL, then follow it up with a FREE PPLNS 'plug'.

No, we don't think you're stupid, we just think you're a tool.  A great tool, mind you... but still a tool.  You do good work, though, so it's ok.  You pay 5%!  The best tool around!
THAT was the most pathetic insult ever...... I FEEL LIKE YOU SCAMMED ME out of a proper insult. I am going to have to report this.

kislam
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 74


View Profile
November 13, 2011, 11:56:27 AM
 #75

I am getting a new 5830 in the next few days. I propose to set up the card to mine round-robin at PPLNS, PPS and Prop pools over an extended period, just to see how the payments (after adjusting for fees if the pool charges any) stack up against each other. Since there has been a lot of disagreement with PPLNS and intermittent mining and long-term results, i am thinking round-robin setup in cgminer can simulate the intermittent nature of mining. Please suggest:

 * Pool(s) for each category (PPLNS/PPS/Prop)
 * Mining software most suitable for this test run (cgminer seems best to me)
 * What should be the total time frame for the test run - i mean, what time frame is long-term enough to average out the different variance levels?
 * Basis of comparing the earnings - OTTOMH i think it might be ok to compare average reward per share from each pool, but pls suggest better ideas
 * Any other suggestions...

Once set up, I will publish the API key for each pool account so that anyone can monitor the progress.

Ideas?

1PMHA7hyqqbcCbjMfwvKT4xEZ81EYasJze
bulanula
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518



View Profile
November 13, 2011, 11:59:10 AM
 #76

I am getting a new 5830 in the next few days. I propose to set up the card to mine round-robin at PPLNS, PPS and Prop pools over an extended period, just to see how the payments (after adjusting for fees if the pool charges any) stack up against each other. Since there has been a lot of disagreement with PPLNS and intermittent mining and long-term results, i am thinking round-robin setup in cgminer can simulate the intermittent nature of mining. Please suggest:

 * Pool(s) for each category (PPLNS/PPS/Prop)
 * Mining software most suitable for this test run (cgminer seems best to me)
 * What should be the total time frame for the test run - i mean, what time frame is long-term enough to average out the different variance levels?
 * Basis of comparing the earnings - OTTOMH i think it might be ok to compare average reward per share from each pool, but pls suggest better ideas
 * Any other suggestions...

Once set up, I will publish the API key for each pool account so that anyone can monitor the progress.

Ideas?

There is no disagreement mate. We all know that PPLNS / Prop suck and that PPS is really the only viable pool system. Only solo is better when you have the power. People using Prop / PPLNS deserve to be cheater by pool hoppers, have a ton of variance and cheated by pool operator. Sheep do your research !
kislam
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 74


View Profile
November 13, 2011, 12:51:52 PM
 #77

I am getting a new 5830 in the next few days. I propose to set up the card to mine round-robin at PPLNS, PPS and Prop pools over an extended period, just to see how the payments (after adjusting for fees if the pool charges any) stack up against each other. Since there has been a lot of disagreement with PPLNS and intermittent mining and long-term results, i am thinking round-robin setup in cgminer can simulate the intermittent nature of mining. Please suggest:

 * Pool(s) for each category (PPLNS/PPS/Prop)
 * Mining software most suitable for this test run (cgminer seems best to me)
 * What should be the total time frame for the test run - i mean, what time frame is long-term enough to average out the different variance levels?
 * Basis of comparing the earnings - OTTOMH i think it might be ok to compare average reward per share from each pool, but pls suggest better ideas
 * Any other suggestions...

Once set up, I will publish the API key for each pool account so that anyone can monitor the progress.

Ideas?

There is no disagreement mate. We all know that PPLNS / Prop suck and that PPS is really the only viable pool system. Only solo is better when you have the power. People using Prop / PPLNS deserve to be cheater by pool hoppers, have a ton of variance and cheated by pool operator. Sheep do your research !

I think numbers speak louder than anything else. So I think this can be a useful demo that comes up with some solid figures which can be referenced later on. I request everyone to offer constructive ideas.

1PMHA7hyqqbcCbjMfwvKT4xEZ81EYasJze
paraipan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924


Firstbits: 1pirata


View Profile WWW
November 13, 2011, 01:19:35 PM
 #78

I am getting a new 5830 in the next few days. I propose to set up the card to mine round-robin at PPLNS, PPS and Prop pools over an extended period, just to see how the payments (after adjusting for fees if the pool charges any) stack up against each other. Since there has been a lot of disagreement with PPLNS and intermittent mining and long-term results, i am thinking round-robin setup in cgminer can simulate the intermittent nature of mining. Please suggest:

 * Pool(s) for each category (PPLNS/PPS/Prop)
 * Mining software most suitable for this test run (cgminer seems best to me)
 * What should be the total time frame for the test run - i mean, what time frame is long-term enough to average out the different variance levels?
 * Basis of comparing the earnings - OTTOMH i think it might be ok to compare average reward per share from each pool, but pls suggest better ideas
 * Any other suggestions...

Once set up, I will publish the API key for each pool account so that anyone can monitor the progress.

Ideas?

you don't have to, we have ppl around that can simulate any situation over a long period of time...

BTCitcoin: An Idea Worth Saving - Q&A with bitcoins on rugatu.com - Check my rep
DrHaribo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1960


Bitminter.com Operator


View Profile WWW
November 13, 2011, 01:58:32 PM
 #79

There is no disagreement mate. We all know that PPLNS / Prop suck and that PPS is really the only viable pool system. Only solo is better when you have the power. People using Prop / PPLNS deserve to be cheater by pool hoppers, have a ton of variance and cheated by pool operator. Sheep do your research !

Indeed if PPLNS can be abused by pool hoppers I certainly need to do some research and switch to a better reward system. After all, stopping pool hoppers was the reason I went with PPLNS.

Could you please point me to some evidence or explanation of these facts so I can do my research properly? Or perhaps you can explain how it works yourself.

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
urstroyer
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 143



View Profile
November 13, 2011, 02:14:35 PM
 #80

There is no disagreement mate. We all know that PPLNS / Prop suck and that PPS is really the only viable pool system. Only solo is better when you have the power. People using Prop / PPLNS deserve to be cheater by pool hoppers, have a ton of variance and cheated by pool operator. Sheep do your research !

Indeed if PPLNS can be abused by pool hoppers I certainly need to do some research and switch to a better reward system. After all, stopping pool hoppers was the reason I went with PPLNS.

Could you please point me to some evidence or explanation of these facts so I can do my research properly? Or perhaps you can explain how it works yourself.


Hi DrHaribo,

this should be of interest for you:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39832.0

Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!