[BCN] Bytecoin. Secure, private, untraceable since 2012

[IMZ]

I am quietly reading this material.

Mark

[1714077630]

1714077630

[1714077630]

1714077630

[1714077630]

1714077630

[child_harold]

… That's why I support your efforts - keep it up!!

That's not my intention. I am as interested in the future of bytecoin as I am the past.

Whatever you think or don't think about bytecoin many of us in this forum are interested in digital cash. The bytecoin code stands on its own and I look forward to seeing the next tech innovation(s) esp multi-addressing (no payment ID's) and the "substantial crypto improvement".

3) Even though Bytecoin has made tons of code refactoring in the past few months, there were no significant cryptographic changes. However, in the upcoming release 1.0.6 there going to be a substantial crypto improvement. We'll cover that once the release is ready.

In Bytecoin 1.0.6 we are introducing multi-addressing for RPC Wallet to get rid of payment IDs. It is a genuine multi-addressing, not a payment ID included into the address.

From CryptoNote protocol perspective, you have to scan each output with your private keys to learn about an incoming transaction. This poses a challenge for the service that generates a number of addresses as under current crypto protocol this would imply that each output should be scanned for each address which is resource consuming and non-viable on large scale.

Our new approach performs a magic trick (I'll intentionally leave it like this before the release) that allows such a verification to be performed much easier regardless of how many addresses the service has created.

You may expect Bytecoin 1.0.6 release next week, and we'll be covering it in details in our blog.

"next week".

[LucD88]

In Bytecoin 1.0.6 we are introducing multi-addressing for RPC Wallet to get rid of payment IDs. It is a genuine multi-addressing, not a payment ID included into the address.

From CryptoNote protocol perspective, you have to scan each output with your private keys to learn about an incoming transaction. This poses a challenge for the service that generates a number of addresses as under current crypto protocol this would imply that each output should be scanned for each address which is resource consuming and non-viable on large scale.

Our new approach performs a magic trick (I'll intentionally leave it like this before the release) that allows such a verification to be performed much easier regardless of how many addresses the service has created.

You may expect Bytecoin 1.0.6 release next week, and we'll be covering it in details in our blog.

"next week".

Today (Sunday) is the last day of the mentioned week, right? Curiously waiting for the details about Bytecoin v1.0.6.

[bytemuma]

In Bytecoin 1.0.6 we are introducing multi-addressing for RPC Wallet to get rid of payment IDs. It is a genuine multi-addressing, not a payment ID included into the address.

From CryptoNote protocol perspective, you have to scan each output with your private keys to learn about an incoming transaction. This poses a challenge for the service that generates a number of addresses as under current crypto protocol this would imply that each output should be scanned for each address which is resource consuming and non-viable on large scale.

Our new approach performs a magic trick (I'll intentionally leave it like this before the release) that allows such a verification to be performed much easier regardless of how many addresses the service has created.

You may expect Bytecoin 1.0.6 release next week, and we'll be covering it in details in our blog.

"next week".

Today (Sunday) is the last day of the mentioned week, right? Curiously waiting for the details about Bytecoin v1.0.6.

If I know something about bytcoin devs, is that they don't rush things. You can learn how they test everything in their blog.

Keep calm, because they gonna deliver...

[acdc]

If I know something about bytcoin devs, is that they don't rush things. You can learn how they test everything in their blog.

Keep calm, because they gonna deliver...

haha, that made me laugh, if the bytecoin devs were in the habit of rushing they wouldn't have had time to 80% mine the coin before anyone else heard of it lol

how do you guys see this ending? the scam wash-up I mean

[child_harold]

If I know something about bytcoin devs, is that they don't rush things. You can learn how they test everything in their blog.

Keep calm, because they gonna deliver...

haha, that made me laugh, if the bytecoin devs were in the habit of rushing they wouldn't have had time to 80% mine the coin before anyone else heard of it lol

how do you guys see this ending? the scam wash-up I mean

Invest or don't. Or just stick around to see what the innovators/cypherpunks who brought the world the very first crytonote coin (and maybe cryptonote itself) have for us next in 1.0.6 (multi-addressing for RPC Wallet to get rid of payment IDs and crypto improvements)

It was always about the anon. And it always will be.

[jwinterm]

If I know something about bytcoin devs, is that they don't rush things. You can learn how they test everything in their blog.

Keep calm, because they gonna deliver...

haha, that made me laugh, if the bytecoin devs were in the habit of rushing they wouldn't have had time to 80% mine the coin before anyone else heard of it lol

how do you guys see this ending? the scam wash-up I mean

Invest or don't. Or just stick around to see what the innovators/cypherpunks who brought the world the very first crytonote coin (and maybe cryptonote itself) have for us next in 1.0.6 (multi-addressing for RPC Wallet to get rid of payment IDs and crypto improvements)

It was always about the anon. And it always will be.

The problem is for Bytecoin that the anon may be broken. You have been posing many questions about Bytecoin's/Cryptonote's history for the last several weeks/months. Although you seem to come down on the side of believing they Bytecoin dev(s) story about mining on the deepdarkscarynet for two years, many others are skeptical, such as myself, acdc, and NASdaq. If you think there's a possibility that one person/entity controls ~80% of the coins/UTXOs, then the anonymity afforded by ring signatures is broken; see here for gory math details:
https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0001.pdf

[child_harold]

Invest or don't. Or just stick around to see what the innovators/cypherpunks who brought the world the very first crytonote coin (and maybe cryptonote itself) have for us next in 1.0.6 (multi-addressing for RPC Wallet to get rid of payment IDs and crypto improvements)

It was always about the anon. And it always will be.

The problem is for Bytecoin that the anon may be broken. You have been posing many questions about Bytecoin's/Cryptonote's history for the last several weeks/months. Although you seem to come down on the side of believing they Bytecoin dev(s) story about mining on the deepdarkscarynet for two years, many others are skeptical, such as myself, acdc, and NASdaq. If you think there's a possibility that one person/entity controls ~80% of the coins/UTXOs, then the anonymity afforded by ring signatures is broken; see here for gory math details:
https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0001.pdf

The "broken anon" problem is a theoretical vulnerability in ALL cryptonote coins wherein an individual/group/entity has a certain probability of de-anoning transactions which increases with the more coins they own. Curiously there is only one way to protect a CN coin from this kind of vulnerability - by ensuring a large amount of coin never gets traded. Govts and 3-letter orgs have more than enough resources to accumulate large stakes in any CN coin save those they cannot buy or mine enough of (like bytecoin). Of course coercion of developers and large stakeholders by govs could also lead to de-anoning transactions, that is assuming these stakeholderrs and developers are known entities and maybe even if they're not.

Scams are not usually associated with true innovation. Bytecoin is a groundbreaking anonymous crypto-currency and the first of its kind. Radically different to Bitcoin, Bytecoin is arguably the most significant crypto-currency advancement since Bitcoin itself. I wanna see what anon tech they develop next for the betterment of man. You dont have to invest in bytecoin to reap its rewards. Just ask monero. People study the history of bytecoin when its history is still being written.

Whether you believe it's a case of perals to swine or pearls from swine they are pearls nonetheless.

I refer you below to my more detailed piece posted in the monero thread yesterday:

To conclude my stint as interloper…

Thanks to all of you for your invaluable time and patience. I am quite aware I may have stepped out-of-line from time-to-time but that’s what people like us do: step out-of-line. We are all free thinkers or at least should be, and we can congratulate ourselves

I have been reading into the cryptonote, bytecoin and monero story for almost a month and there is yet much reading left. Sufficed to say I have reached no firm conclusions, save one. Most important is the continued development of anonymous digital currencies for the betterment of man. As such I look forward to seeing the next crypto innovations, whoever creates them.

In brief what I found perhaps most surprising in this is that both fluffypony and smooth are convinced the cryptonote team is in cahoots with the bytecoin team. For me this raises lots of questions which I wont bore you with now, save one:

Does monero's attack on bytecoin purpose to destroy the future of arguably the most innovative anonymous crypto-currency ever developed? (especially because the cryptonote and bytecoin teams may well be the same or consist of some of the same members). If so, at what cost?

I'd like to see monero stand on its own without feeling the need to bash bytecoin in order to prop itself up. I read GingerAle's welcome to monero text which was mostly good besides the gratuitous shiv in bytecoin.

There may be an irony in all of this. By the time the world hears about monero it'll be at least 80% mined (if it isn't already). Whist you were "open' about your launch this coin has been mostly mined by small circles of people, perhaps not much larger than those presumably small circles who quietly mined bytecoin. What may be of most significance (or should be) is the security, quality and usability of the product. Their histories may prove not to be as important to those seeking privacy as to those seeking privacy in monero. You may say they might be able to de-anon tx's but their distro is always improving (presumably) and your distro is not demonstrably better. The shift from suspicion of guilt to certain guilt and lynch mobs without hard-proof is unsettling to me and I think monero should consider not firing off the rethink-your-strategy post so liberally when without all the facts at hand even smooth admits is prone to error.

I'll continue to watch both projects (and Shadow) and their development.

Best wishes.

[jwinterm]

...

Scams are not usually associated with true innovation. Bytecoin is a groundbreaking anonymous crypto-currency and the first of its kind. Radically different to Bitcoin, Bytecoin is arguably the most significant crypto-currency advancement since Bitcoin itself. I wanna see what anon tech they develop next for the betterment of man. You dont have to invest in bytecoin to reap its rewards.

This is probably true, but in their case, they could launch the scam, and then launch several other cryptos based on the same source code (bitmonero, quazarcoin, phantomcoin?, ducknote, monetaverde, aeon, etc.) and kind of hedge their bets. If it was truly to prevent this type of attack described in the paper linked above, why wouldn't they just send the 80% premine to a burn address and release the viewkey?

[Rias]

Removing untraceability does not remove the privacy of a CryptoNote coin. The anonymity is achieved through both untraceability (ringsig) and unlinkability (stealth addresses). Even if all txouts are deanonymized, it doesn't reduce that much. From this perspective, CryptoNote without ringsig is much more private and secure than Bitcoin, as nodoby will ever be able to link to particular transactions (and even outputs) to one wallet. The ambiguity level is reduced to zero, but all it reveals is what txouts have been spent.

[jwinterm]

Removing untraceability does not remove the privacy of a CryptoNote coin. The anonymity is achieved through both untraceability (ringsig) and unlinkability (stealth addresses). Even if all txouts are deanonymized, it doesn't reduce that much. From this perspective, CryptoNote without ringsig is much more private and secure than Bitcoin, as nodoby will ever be able to link to particular transactions (and even outputs) to one wallet. The ambiguity level is reduced to zero, but all it reveals is what txouts have been spent.

So what you're seeing is, "Even if there is an 80% premine, don't worry it only breaks half of the privacy features"?

Why should anyone take that risk when they can get an exact mirror of the code with definitely no premine with dashcoin? Or use a very similar codebase with additional features (and no risk of ring signature breaking premine) from any of the other available cryptonotes?

Anyway, not trying to beat a dead horse, I just don't understand why anyone would use a coin where one of the main selling points may be compromised, when there are alternatives that are clearly not compromised available.

[child_harold]

Removing untraceability does not remove the privacy of a CryptoNote coin. The anonymity is achieved through both untraceability (ringsig) and unlinkability (stealth addresses). Even if all txouts are deanonymized, it doesn't reduce that much. From this perspective, CryptoNote without ringsig is much more private and secure than Bitcoin, as nodoby will ever be able to link to particular transactions (and even outputs) to one wallet. The ambiguity level is reduced to zero, but all it reveals is what txouts have been spent.

So what you're seeing is, "Even if there is an 80% premine, don't worry it only breaks half of the privacy features"?

Why should anyone take that risk when they can get an exact mirror of the code with definitely no premine with dashcoin? Or use a very similar codebase with additional features (and no risk of ring signature breaking premine) from any of the other available cryptonotes?

Anyway, not trying to beat a dead horse, I just don't understand why anyone would use a coin where one of the main selling points may be compromised, when there are alternatives that are clearly not compromised available.

No CN coin can be proven "clearly not compromised" in this way. The vast majority of coin in any CN currency are bought and mined by unknown parties and since transactions are obfuscated we cant be sure where the coins are all going..

Im not saying large amounts of bytecoin have been reserved to prevent de-anonymization, merely pointing out it is a method (maybe the only one) to prevent such an attack.

Nobody would be surprised if the bytecoin devs produce more crypto innovations. I could use a CN clone but BCN will lead the the pack in terms of development for the forseeable future.

[smooth]

Im not saying large amounts of bytecoin have been reserved to prevent de-anonymization, merely pointing out it is a method (maybe the only one) to prevent such an attack.

From a security perspective this argument is nonsense. All the premine does is replace a potential vulnerability with a guaranteed vulnerability. Not only to the Bytecoin promoters themselves, but to anyone who could compromise them or their stash.

[child_harold]

Im not saying large amounts of bytecoin have been reserved to prevent de-anonymization, merely pointing out it is a method (maybe the only one) to prevent such an attack.

From a security perspective this argument is nonsense. All the premine does is replace a potential vulnerability with a guaranteed vulnerability. Not only to the Bytecoin promoters themselves, but to anyone who could compromise them or their stash.

If you allow govs and 3 letter orgs to buy/mine your coins then vulnerability is guaranteed.

What you're saying is that the bytecoin devs and miners would de-anon their own crypto? And you also say they're scammers? They cannot not BOTH dump and de-anon. It would have to be one or the other. Besides you're describing the collusion of several parties, a collusion or coercion which could occur in Monero. Given the public identities of Monero devs and community members Id have thought coercion would be much easier.

You will also notice the many many transactions on the network. Any "stashes" would be well dispersed (presumably).

What I say is true though. Only by making a certain portion of the currency "untouchable" can you guarantee against the vulnerability. This you cannot deny.

Having said all that the distro in BCN improves with time.

[child_harold]

Fuck it… past 20 sats…why the hell not?

Hocus Pocus Focus Anonymous!
https://youtu.be/4Zkir2MMhIM?t=6m38s

[smooth]

What I say is true though. Only by making a certain portion of the currency "untouchable" can you guarantee against the vulnerability. This you cannot deny.

No it's totally wrong as I explained a few weeks ago. If people do start using BCN, they won't mix with anything in the first 80% because they know it is compromised by design. Therefore other attackers have an easier job getting a disproportionately large share of the remaining 80%

In reality the most secure cryptonote coin is going to be the most used and most widely used. The repetitional damage of being a (likely/apparent/probable) premine scam will prevent BCN from ever being that.

There is simply no reason not to prefer another cyrptonote with the same (or in some cases better) technology and no premine. Pick whichever one you like.

[child_harold]

What I say is true though. Only by making a certain portion of the currency "untouchable" can you guarantee against the vulnerability. This you cannot deny.

No it's totally wrong as I explained a few weeks ago. If people do start using BCN, they won't mix with anything in the first 80% because they know it is compromised by design. Therefore other attackers have an easier job getting a disproportionately large share of the remaining 80%

In reality the most secure cryptonote coin is going to be the most used and most widely used. The repetitional damage of being a (likely/apparent/probable) premine scam will prevent BCN from ever being that.

There is simply no reason not to prefer another cyrptonote with the same (or in some cases better) technology and no premine. Pick whichever one you like.

Im assuming the devs and early miners will not conspire to de-anon the tx's, mostly since they created this open-souce crypto-currency in the first place (which you then forked). In the same way I assume that the Monero devs, reptila and the 10 largest XMR holders dont conspire (or are coerced) to do the same thing. If you use bytecoin you'll mix with all the coins.

As I explain I prefer BCN becuae they're racing ahead with development and know the code and the CN crypto better than anybody else in here.

Once again you contradict yourself by calling them "scammers". The devs cannot very well dump their coins and de-anon. Scammers would run away with the money which these guys havent. Perhaps you think theyre gov agents who build a crypto only to de-anon it? a honey-pot? No need to answer smooth - it's a rhetorical question.

[smooth]

What I say is true though. Only by making a certain portion of the currency "untouchable" can you guarantee against the vulnerability. This you cannot deny.

No it's totally wrong as I explained a few weeks ago. If people do start using BCN, they won't mix with anything in the first 80% because they know it is compromised by design. Therefore other attackers have an easier job getting a disproportionately large share of the remaining 80%

In reality the most secure cryptonote coin is going to be the most used and most widely used. The repetitional damage of being a (likely/apparent/probable) premine scam will prevent BCN from ever being that.

There is simply no reason not to prefer another cyrptonote with the same (or in some cases better) technology and no premine. Pick whichever one you like.

Im assuming the devs and early miners will not conspire

For all you know it could be one person. No conspiring necessary.

to de-anon the tx's, mostly since they created this open-souce crypto-currency in the first place (which you then forked).

And perhaps it is a honey pot. The point being that it makes no sense for someone to simply trust that. Otherwise you might just trust them to run bytecoinpaypal.

You can't simple "assume they won't ... de-anon" and have any kind of valid security model, nor a decentralized system in any meaningful sense. It is a centralized system run by people you know only from a bunch of forum posts. What could possibly go wrong?

In the same way I assume that the Monero devs, reptila and the 10 largest XMR holders dont conspire (or are coerced) to do the same thing.

Good luck even identifying the 10 largest XMR holders. Its probably not the devs. rpietila is probably one of them, but he's only one. Furthermore, it's probably not the case that the 10 largest holders have anywhere near 80%. rpietila's analysis here gives the top 10 about 20%. Maybe he's off a bit, even so...

If you use bytecoin you'll mix with all the coins.

I certainly wouldn't. But then it doesn't matter because hardly anyone will ever use it, since there are better cryptonote alternatives without massive (likely/apparent) fraudulent premines.

As I explain I prefer BCN becuae they're racing ahead with development and know the code and the CN crypto better than anybody else in here.

You aren't qualified to judge that. As I suggested earlier, you should employ the services of someone who actually understands the code. Given an independent review of what has been delivered in this "racing ahead" over the past 18 months, I suspect you would be quite surprised.

Go ahead though, put all your money in Bytecoin please. See how that works out for you.

[child_harold]

For all you know it could be one person. No conspiring necessary.

Without a whistleblower that'd mean he'd written cryptonote, launched bytecoin and its clones and the rest. What a dude. (ps unlikely)

…run by people you know only from a bunch of forum posts. What could possibly go wrong?

that's about sums up my experience of crypto

Good luck even identifying the 10 largest XMR holders.

Not me. Sufficed to say mining XMR (or BCN) is substantially less anonymous than sending it.

You aren't qualified to judge that.

No Im not. Are you?

Go ahead though, put all your money in Bytecoin please. See how that works out for you.

ALL my money? I wouldnt put all my money in any one crypto. How's it working out? Well I bought mostly between 10 -14 sats and its now around 20 so OK thanks.

[smooth]

For all you know it could be one person. No conspiring necessary.

Without a whistleblower that'd mean he'd written cryptonote, launched bytecoin and its clones and the rest. What a dude. (ps unlikely)

You are assuming that the person in charge is writing the actual code, white papers, web design, astroturfing, etc. It is entirely possible some or all of those people were/are hired.

You know developers and others are approached and paid to develop coins by "investors", right? (I'm not even necessarily talking about BCN here, just coins in general, but there is no reason to rule it out in the case of BCN.)

…run by people you know only from a bunch of forum posts. What could possibly go wrong?

that's about sums up my experience of crypto

That's just the point. You're completely missing the point.