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Author Topic: DigiPiglets.com - Bitcoin piggy bank - Gift idea for beginners and enthusiasts!  (Read 851 times)
wheelz1200
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April 11, 2019, 11:53:34 PM
 #21

Check out BIP38

Viz

Totally forgot about this method, thanks for pointing it out.

Though you are correct in theory, in practice you are exposing your company's name/reputation to unnecessary risk as opposed to internally generating these keys. It sure would be frustrating to have a theft happen due to a security flaw at the printing company - a variable that could have been well within your control.

Please dont take this as a flame, I'd like to see this product succeed and am offering a critique based on a flawed methodology that supposedly brought theft onto a now defunct coinmaker (Alitin).

Would you consider the BIP38 encryption a proper measure in securing the keys?

I'd love to find the most secure method, while keeping it as simple as possible. I definitely appreciate your concerns!

We'll also use the opportunity and include a booklet or flyer with security instructions and information. People should be made aware of how much risk is associated with each method, so that they can allocate their funds accordingly.

I am sorry.  This is a cool little idea and great to give your little ones but I cant support this.  You are pushing accountability to someone else if something goes wrong.  While 10 doesn't seem like a large amount, what if you sold a 1,000 of these and a new hire at this company has copies of the keys.  Access now to $10,000.  I'm offering advise,dont outsource your private key printing.  Good luck with your project, it stands a good idea, just not the execution side.

I get your concerns, but does that mean you don't trust Casascius, Denarium etc. either?

What about BIP38 ?

And just in case someone missed it: we do sell them unfunded as well

They dont outsource printing for their private keys.  Holograms yes, private key printing no.  Huge difference.  I'm not digging on you, again I like the idea behind it.




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April 11, 2019, 11:59:08 PM
 #22

If you are accepting payment for these already how come we have not seen anything besides a single pig prototype? All I see are various rendered pictures and links to Casascius and Denarium promotional pictures.

I ask this because we know that those holograms work great on metals, but your piggybank does not seem to be made from a metal. I think you need to stress test the hell out of the security of these. What if you can use a heatgun and make the plastic of the piggybank heat up enough that the hologram just falls off? What if you can slice the piggybank a mere fraction deeper than the hologram and be able to make out the QR code/private key underneath? What if the plastic causes a reaction with the printer paper and it becomes unreadable after a year?

You've come to a forum where many members have coins worth $1000, $10,000, even $100,000 worth of bitcoin. Your idea isn't a bad one, but you need to have every single checkmark checked on your sheet before you can even throw yourself into the mix, especially here.

You may say well it is only $10 worth of bitcoin.. but no, bitcoin itself was once worth $10 each and look at it now. There is potential here but you have more work to do.
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April 12, 2019, 12:05:19 AM
 #23

The idea is a good one.
Getting people to squirrel away a few bucks worth of BTC each week in a piggy bank format is cool.

Currently, the weak link is your execution. Get that right and I suspect you will have a vibrant market.
Embrace the security issues and explore how you can use these comments and ideas as source material to educate future piggy customers. This btw is key. As a provider it is your responsibility to educate your customers. Get it right and they'll be back for your next offering ....

There's a really cool opportunity here, don't blow it with cheap short cuts or lazy thinking Wink

The audience may be critical, but they do love a good idea well executed and will pay for that too Wink

Viz

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April 12, 2019, 12:58:45 AM
 #24

They dont outsource printing for their private keys.  Holograms yes, private key printing no.  Huge difference.  I'm not digging on you, again I like the idea behind it.

Of course you are absolutely right. Never mind my last posts! We will print the QR-Code+key and add it to the hologram label. Just a little mix up here


If you are accepting payment for these already how come we have not seen anything besides a single pig prototype? All I see are various rendered pictures and links to Casascius and Denarium promotional pictures.

I ask this because we know that those holograms work great on metals, but your piggybank does not seem to be made from a metal. I think you need to stress test the hell out of the security of these. What if you can use a heatgun and make the plastic of the piggybank heat up enough that the hologram just falls off? What if you can slice the piggybank a mere fraction deeper than the hologram and be able to make out the QR code/private key underneath? What if the plastic causes a reaction with the printer paper and it becomes unreadable after a year?

You've come to a forum where many members have coins worth $1000, $10,000, even $100,000 worth of bitcoin. Your idea isn't a bad one, but you need to have every single checkmark checked on your sheet before you can even throw yourself into the mix, especially here.

You may say well it is only $10 worth of bitcoin.. but no, bitcoin itself was once worth $10 each and look at it now. There is potential here but you have more work to do.

We started taking pre-orders to test demand. I'll accept cancellations no questions asked. We're still working on the label design and the adhesive (the supplier had the same concern as you), which is why there are still some sample/rendered pictures. It will all come together as time progresses, working on it Wink


The idea is a good one.
Getting people to squirrel away a few bucks worth of BTC each week in a piggy bank format is cool.

Currently, the weak link is your execution. Get that right and I suspect you will have a vibrant market.
Embrace the security issues and explore how you can use these comments and ideas as source material to educate future piggy customers. This btw is key. As a provider it is your responsibility to educate your customers. Get it right and they'll be back for your next offering ....

There's a really cool opportunity here, don't blow it with cheap short cuts or lazy thinking Wink

The audience may be critical, but they do love a good idea well executed and will pay for that too Wink

Viz


Don't forget we're still in our alpha-stage, a lot of concept with only a little product. But we're getting there.

Rest assured that we won't sell anything with people being unsure about security aspects or anything else. The way I see it, if the skeptics here approve of it, we have a chance of winning over the masses. That's our goal

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April 12, 2019, 01:05:24 AM
 #25

This board will be your litmus test so to speak.

We have seen many scammers and ill attempted ideas come and go.

  So listen to the vets here as they will point you in the right direction.

   Imo...I am still to the idea the buyer provide you with the public keys...leaving you with no liability of any theft.

   Those who own the keys...own the coin.

   Goodluck

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April 12, 2019, 09:27:58 AM
 #26

This board will be your litmus test so to speak.

We have seen many scammers and ill attempted ideas come and go.

  So listen to the vets here as they will point you in the right direction.

   Imo...I am still to the idea the buyer provide you with the public keys...leaving you with no liability of any theft.

   Those who own the keys...own the [Suspicious link removed]dluck

I like the idea in spirit, problem is the company won't print label by label. Collecting them and then ordering in bulk would mean you'd wait longer for your DigiPiglet, which would be a bad experience if the price moves significantly. Also, the whole point is to give the customer all the tools he needs, it's geared towards those who are not capable of creating the keys themselves.

But if we created a program/bot that generates the keys, sends a printing job to a printer and then deletes it's memory, we cut out one weak spot. If the printed sheet comes out covered, the assembly happens also without the person seeing the label. That would give as an extra security layer, right?

krogothmanhattan
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April 12, 2019, 01:09:25 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2019, 01:45:44 PM by krogothmanhattan
 #27

This board will be your litmus test so to speak.

We have seen many scammers and ill attempted ideas come and go.

  So listen to the vets here as they will point you in the right direction.

   Imo...I am still to the idea the buyer provide you with the public keys...leaving you with no liability of any theft.

   Those who own the keys...own the [Suspicious link removed]dluck

I like the idea in spirit, problem is the company won't print label by label. Collecting them and then ordering in bulk would mean you'd wait longer for your DigiPiglet, which would be a bad experience if the price moves significantly. Also, the whole point is to give the customer all the tools he needs, it's geared towards those who are not capable of creating the keys themselves.

But if we created a program/bot that generates the keys, sends a printing job to a printer and then deletes it's memory, we cut out one weak spot. If the printed sheet comes out covered, the assembly happens also without the person seeing the label. That would give as an extra security layer, right?

    This is what I would recommend....

    a) Sell the item with holo detached and allow the user to print their own public and private keys at home and then they can attach on their own.
        We have coin makers here that did that when they sodl their coins.

    b) The user sends you a public key only they have generated on their own or copied thru their wallet such as Mycelium, Coinomi or Trezor for example. You print it and and attach to the animal with holo over it. This way you never get to see the private keys.

    c) You create a public key and private key and do as you were planning to do.
 
    I am all for A and B, but not for C. I can see that for the person that is not familiar with BTC, A and B might be a challenge. In the past I used https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/ but would not recommend as I heard the original owner Canton is no longer in charge.

   Also you may give the purchaser A choice to choose from a, b or c.

    Again these are my suggestions and my point of view on what I would do.

    Please read up here on a thread I created and you will understand what most of us have experienced or have heard about. Then you will know where we bring our fears to the table. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0

   I will say again, those who have own the keys own the coin.

    Goodluck mate and wish you the best.

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April 13, 2019, 02:31:25 AM
Merited by krogothmanhattan (1)
 #28

   This is what I would recommend....

    a) Sell the item with holo detached and allow the user to print their own public and private keys at home and then they can attach on their own.
        We have coin makers here that did that when they sodl their coins.

    b) The user sends you a public key only they have generated on their own or copied thru their wallet such as Mycelium, Coinomi or Trezor for example. You print it and and attach to the animal with holo over it. This way you never get to see the private keys.

    c) You create a public key and private key and do as you were planning to do.
 
    I am all for A and B, but not for C. I can see that for the person that is not familiar with BTC, A and B might be a challenge. In the past I used https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/ but would not recommend as I heard the original owner Canton is no longer in charge.

   Also you may give the purchaser A choice to choose from a, b or c.

    Again these are my suggestions and my point of view on what I would do.

    Please read up here on a thread I created and you will understand what most of us have experienced or have heard about. Then you will know where we bring our fears to the table. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0

   I will say again, those who have own the keys own the coin.

    Goodluck mate and wish you the best.

Having gone through your thread and those fraud cases, I am getting the feeling that the entire industry needs a new standard. Thank you for pointing all that out.

We already have the technology to print scratch labels (like the pin for a credit card that you receive in the mail, basically the same as a private key), we have bots that execute programs or applications, I'm sure there's a way to combine the two and print concealed private keys on scratch labels, and use the hologram sticker to attach the two to our DigiPiglets. I'll look into how that can be done

Keep in mind that we want mass adoption, so having users print their own keys will remain an option for knowledgeable customers, but not the main feature. We'll make it the main goal to come up with a trustless system, otherwise this will remain a niche thing.

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April 13, 2019, 03:26:15 AM
 #29

Appreciate you being open and receptive to ideas and information as a new maker. Cheesy
This definitely helps your credibility.
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April 14, 2019, 03:17:38 PM
 #30

Appreciate you being open and receptive to ideas and information as a new maker. Cheesy
This definitely helps your credibility.

With pleasure. I really want people to be able to hodl these things for a long time. I initially wanted to call them Hodlpiggys, or Hodlmons. If you can not be sure that your keys aren't safe, you can't really enjoy the product. I myself would not want a product like that, so I'm trying to produce something better. The technology is definitely there.

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April 14, 2019, 03:24:28 PM
 #31

I cant say I know much of nfc technology...and it would also raise the cost of your animals... https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nfc-wallet-card-bitcoin-nfc-crypto-wallet-card#/

    Is it possible to have a similar chip installed and thus make it a trustless system? In other words only the owner of that chip can ever sweep the bitcoin?

    Perhaps Mr Robots on this forum can help and voice their opinion.

   Edit: here is another site https://nfcwalletcard.com/cold-storage-wallet-for-cryptocurrencies

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tweetious
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April 14, 2019, 06:47:19 PM
 #32


We started taking pre-orders to test demand. I'll accept cancellations no questions asked. We're still working on the label design and the adhesive (the supplier had the same concern as you), which is why there are still some sample/rendered pictures. It will all come together as time progresses, working on it Wink


You could (just an idea) label the first x orders (let's say first 20-30)  as "founders edition" and individually number them as xx/30. This might increase your pre-orders, and help you with collecting funding for the project (due to the possible scarcity of those limited editions individually numbered founders editions, in the secondary market). just my 2 cents...
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April 22, 2019, 08:26:12 AM
 #33

You could (just an idea) label the first x orders (let's say first 20-30)  as "founders edition" and individually number them as xx/30. This might increase your pre-orders, and help you with collecting funding for the project (due to the possible scarcity of those limited editions individually numbered founders editions, in the secondary market). just my 2 cents...

This is actually what makes it more unique indeed, I vote for adding something like this!

bitcoiner24h
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April 22, 2019, 04:16:31 PM
 #34

This board will be your litmus test so to speak.

We have seen many scammers and ill attempted ideas come and go.

  So listen to the vets here as they will point you in the right direction.

   Imo...I am still to the idea the buyer provide you with the public keys...leaving you with no liability of any theft.

   Those who own the keys...own the [Suspicious link removed]dluck

I like the idea in spirit, problem is the company won't print label by label. Collecting them and then ordering in bulk would mean you'd wait longer for your DigiPiglet, which would be a bad experience if the price moves significantly. Also, the whole point is to give the customer all the tools he needs, it's geared towards those who are not capable of creating the keys themselves.

But if we created a program/bot that generates the keys, sends a printing job to a printer and then deletes it's memory, we cut out one weak spot. If the printed sheet comes out covered, the assembly happens also without the person seeing the label. That would give as an extra security layer, right?

    This is what I would recommend....

    a) Sell the item with holo detached and allow the user to print their own public and private keys at home and then they can attach on their own.
        We have coin makers here that did that when they sodl their coins.

    b) The user sends you a public key only they have generated on their own or copied thru their wallet such as Mycelium, Coinomi or Trezor for example. You print it and and attach to the animal with holo over it. This way you never get to see the private keys.

    c) You create a public key and private key and do as you were planning to do.
 
    I am all for A and B, but not for C. I can see that for the person that is not familiar with BTC, A and B might be a challenge. In the past I used https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/ but would not recommend as I heard the original owner Canton is no longer in charge.

   Also you may give the purchaser A choice to choose from a, b or c.

    Again these are my suggestions and my point of view on what I would do.

    Please read up here on a thread I created and you will understand what most of us have experienced or have heard about. Then you will know where we bring our fears to the table. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0

   I will say again, those who have own the keys own the coin.

    Goodluck mate and wish you the best.

What alternative is best known for bitcoin on paper?
if it  https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/ is not 100% safe?  Huh

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April 22, 2019, 04:32:17 PM
 #35

You could (just an idea) label the first x orders (let's say first 20-30)  as "founders edition" and individually number them as xx/30. This might increase your pre-orders, and help you with collecting funding for the project (due to the possible scarcity of those limited editions individually numbered founders editions, in the secondary market). just my 2 cents...

This is actually what makes it more unique indeed, I vote for adding something like this!

Love the idea, I will send a message to the manufacturer and see what they can do. They've been quite accommodating with our ideas so far Smiley

At the very least we will include a special card or something, but I'm sure we can make actual changes to the animals as well.



What alternative is best known for bitcoin on paper?
if it  https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/ is not 100% safe?  Huh


I don't trust any alternative that's out there online, so I will work with a programmer to have a secure solution

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September 10, 2019, 08:29:40 AM
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #36

A little update for everybody following here:

We've started a Kickstarter Campaign for this project: Click here

In order to get the DigiPiglet in to more hands while doing something good, we've started "The DigiPiglet Journey" (bitcointalk thread)

Still got some more ideas I want to try. Open to hear about yours as well! I appreciate everyones help so far, you've been amazing!


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September 10, 2019, 09:13:57 AM
 #37

What a great idea guys !
Love the way you have really thought this through. Your initial idea was great , but perhaps lacked enough research. It seems that you’ve spent the last few months wisely and really worked through all the relevant aspects.
I would also lack to add that personally, that there are no trust issues. I ordered an original DigiPiglet and the money was returned, without me asking, when you realised more research was required.
Kudos to you and good luck with the project.
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September 10, 2019, 12:53:10 PM
Last edit: September 10, 2019, 08:08:09 PM by eternalgloom
 #38

I can confirm that I have received the first DigiPiglet and I'm currently looking for people who'd like to participate.
I've promoted this trust-chain project by publishing a short article about it on my Steemit blog.

https://steemit.com/blog/@daan/the-digipiglet-journey-creating-a-physical-bitcoin-trust-chain-for-venezuela

Added a small additional incentive for the first person to receive it from me Wink

Edit:

I currently have 6 people who are interested in receiving the DigiPiglet to pass it on:

Mbitr (Bitcointalk): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1781771
@bozz (Steemit): https://steemit.com/@bozz
minerjones (Bitcointalk): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=346731
buwaytress (Bitcointalk): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=901859
tweetious (Bitcointalk): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=830967
Bengy (Steemit): https://steemit.com/@bengy

Really nice to see so much interest, I'll definitely pick someone tomorrow and then send the DigiPiglet by mail on Thursday.
I don't mind shipping to the US or anywhere in Europe, Asia should be fine too I think.

minerjones
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September 10, 2019, 04:12:07 PM
 #39

I can confirm that I have received the first DigiPiglet and I'm currently looking for people who'd like to participate.
I've promoted this trust-chain project by publishing a short article about it on my Steemit blog.

https://steemit.com/blog/@daan/the-digipiglet-journey-creating-a-physical-bitcoin-trust-chain-for-venezuela

Added a small additional incentive for the first person to receive it from me Wink

Edit:

I currently have 2 people who are interested in receiving the DigiPiglet to pass it on:

Mbitr from Bitcointalk: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1781771
@bozz who replied to my Steemit post: https://steemit.com/blog/@daan/the-digipiglet-journey-creating-a-physical-bitcoin-trust-chain-for-venezuela#@bozz/pxmhhh

Sounds great.
I would be happy to participate as well Cheesy
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September 10, 2019, 05:06:16 PM
 #40

@minerjones

Great to hear that, I'm trying to think of something on how to choose someone Tongue
Ideally, I'd want you all to receive it, luckily the guy on Steemit is also a member here Smiley

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