Please help me understand this...

[bitstyles007]

Hi all,

I would really appreciate some help if any of you have the time. I was researching stuff about companies such as Butterfly Labs and Cointerra and I saw that they both use some similar services. I was confused as to why they use Open Silicon (an ASIC design and development company) and Global Foundries (a fabricator, also something to do with "tape out"). I'm a big newbie with this stuff so I was hoping someone could explain to me the process from starting an ASIC mining company to shipping orders out.

For instance, are they developing something innovative and unique to their brand besides the design? My guess is yes because I always hear how they are working on the next big thing, like 20nm chips, and racing to get there first. But then I read that they order pieces from different manufacturers and assemble them so I'm confused.

Also, are they just paying other places to do research for them on the next big chip? Are they bringing in special people to develop the chips somewhere?

I know I must sound so stupid. I'm so lost. Can somebody help catch me up to speed? =/

[1715334166]

1715334166

[1715334166]

1715334166

[1715334166]

1715334166

[1715334166]

1715334166

[CryptoREI]

Stay away from BFL, unless you want to wait 7+ months to get you product.

[franky1]

I always hear how they are working on the next big thing,

the 2 companies you mention are always working on the next best thing.. the problem is they hardly ever finish working on it, until its too late to be useful.

[bitstyles007]

Thanks guys. I will stay away from them but I just want to know how they go about starting their business. Does anyone know how it goes from idea to shipping? What are they doing with Open-Silicon and Global Foundries?

[MoneyShot2]

Thanks guys. I will stay away from them but I just want to know how they go about starting their business. Does anyone know how it goes from idea to shipping? What are they doing with Open-Silicon and Global Foundries?

These companies either make huge profits for themselves before shipping out to customers, or no profit at all. If you figure out how to manufacture your own ASIC:s that are profitable, please let me know the details

But I'm sure you would mine with them until they are no longer profitable, just like all those companies do.

[Rannasha]

Most posts in this thread don't actually answer the questions of the OP, but rather go on an unrelated rant about the business ethics of the mentioned companies. Not that I don't agree with said rants, but it's somewhat offtopic.

ASIC design is a fairly complicated affair, requiring a large amount of know-how. While you can recruit all the required people to do the work for you, it is typically easier, faster and cheaper to outsource it to a dedicated company.

Production is a similar story. Large-scale production of ICs is not something you set up in the local industrial area in town. Semiconductor manufacturing machines are extremely sophisticated hardware (the 20nm feature size that is often mentioned means that individual elements of a chip are only 20 nm large (that's 1:5000th of the width of an average human hair)). And scale matters in this business. That's why many companies outsource all their IC production to giants such as TSMC. It's only the really large semiconductor-related businesses such as Intel that have the scale to be able to afford their own manufacturing operation.

Companies like BFL and Cointerra are rather small in the world of semiconductor devices. Pretty much every device we use these days has some form of IC in it, often several. Bitcoin mining is incredibly niche in that regard. So these companies will collaborate with ASIC-designers that have the knowhow to design an effective chip and then have it produced by large manufacturers that can leverage their scale and efficiency. BFL, Cointerra and co typically then assemble the entire package and handle marketing, shipping, etc...

[BurtW]

Now that is the way to answer a question.  Very good job.

[S4VV4S]

bitmaintech.com   <---- this is what you want.

Order now, get it in 3 days, as simple as that!

[bananas]

bitmaintech.com   <---- this is what you want.

Order now, get it in 3 days, as simple as that!

That's is basically the only option seriously available. It is only 180gh/s, you have to buid a rig with several of them.....

[bitstyles007]

Thanks for your post. You say that ASIC development takes a lot of work and that these companies such as Butterfly Labs and Cointerra are not doing that? (first I just want to make sure that I'm understanding this part correctly). But doesn't the CEO of Cointerra have a architectural engineering background with Samsung chips? And him and his team also have experience working with Intel, Qualcomm, NVIDIA right? So are they helping to design the ASICS chips at all?

From your post, it seems as though you're saying that they go to these ASIC design and development companies (ie Open-Silicon) to make the ASIC card? What input do they have here? Is this ASIC company just making money off of places like Bfly and Cointerra? I'm confused because then how does one company like Cointerra get the edge over a company like Bfly when they are going to these other companies for product development?

what is this stressful "race" for the most advanced card (ie 20nm - then 16 or 14 next) that Josh Zerlan mentioned in an interview? Seems like he's saying it's his own team right? Again, I'm new. I'm just trying to point out why I'm getting confused.

[vpitcher07]

Stay away from BFL, unless you want to wait 7+ months to get you product.

This times 100000. BFL might as well be considered a ponzi scheme. They will delay their pre order products until they are no longer going to make a ROI.

[itod]

For instance, are they developing something innovative and unique to their brand besides the design? My guess is yes because I always hear how they are working on the next big thing, like 20nm chips, and racing to get there first. But then I read that they order pieces from different manufacturers and assemble them so I'm confused.

If you are evaluating companies for the purpose of purchasing miners, there's only one property of their equipment you should be interested in: previous shipping track record.

28nm or 20nm, Gh/s, W/Gh, etc, all are unimportant. Just follow the reports if that company delivers on time or not, you can be promised most advanced equipment in the universe, but it's not worth as much as inferior design delivered on time.

[bitstyles007]

Thanks Itod. I appreciate your input but that's not why I'm asking these questions. I want to know how these companies function. I know they assemble parts like he mentioned but that can't be all they are right? otherwise we'd all just buy parts and assemble. What is their contribution to advancing the ASIC card? How does that part work?

[itod]

Thanks Itod. I appreciate your input but that's not why I'm asking these questions. I want to know how these companies function. I know they assemble parts like he mentioned but that can't be all they are right? otherwise we'd all just buy parts and assemble. What is their contribution to advancing the ASIC card? How does that part work?

I think this might interest you:

CoinTerra’s VP of Hardware Engineering Jim O’Connor explains what ‘fabout’ and ‘bumpout’ mean, ...
http://cointerra.com/cointerra-engineering-fabout-bumpout/

[bitstyles007]

Yes, that does help. Thank you. But doesn't it go against what was said in this thread? The link brings us to a member of the Cointerra team who is stating that he basically had everything to do with making the ASIC card. Where would he do this? Why do they still go to companies like Open-Silicon for ASIC design and development (well, I'm not sure if they do but I know Butterfly Labs does)?

[bitvestor]

Buy now get it later..
Buy now and feed the their cows
Buy Now, Cry later.
Buy now, sad later
Buy now, shout later
Buy now, lose later
Buy now, zero profit later
Buy Big, gain zero
Pay High,  gain Nada.

Which do you understand, or you want more?

[bitstyles007]

There's gotta be someone on this site that knows this stuff inside out. Where are you?

[Deafboy]

Companies like BFL and CoinTerra are designing the chips to calculate hashes efficiently. Other companies like Global Foundries and TSMC are physically making those chips, based on design from them.

[Predatorian]

Yup too much time to wait when u buy stuff from bfl.

[jarhed]

There's gotta be someone on this site that knows this stuff inside out. Where are you?

I think you need another coffee break or whatever it is you do to get blood circulating top-side.....

[Parliament]

Yes, that does help. Thank you. But doesn't it go against what was said in this thread? The link brings us to a member of the Cointerra team who is stating that he basically had everything to do with making the ASIC card. Where would he do this?

Like Deafboy said, these companies design the chips, while Global Foundries, etc physically produce the chips.

Why do they still go to companies like Open-Silicon for ASIC design and development (well, I'm not sure if they do but I know Butterfly Labs does)?

Open-Silicon provides manufacturing operations management. You give them designs and a sum of money, and they deal with individual factories, production lines, etc.

Global Foundries (a fabricator, also something to do with "tape out")

Tape-out is where you make the final set of modifications to a design. Basically the step right before the physical manufacturing. Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out

[bitstyles007]

Thank you very much guys. This is extremely helpful. So can we walk through this to make sure I'm understanding and maybe someone can correct or fill in gaps (there is a reason why I'm belaboring this)?

So first a cpu architect or electrical engineer designs an ASIC card using a software program. Are the ASIC designs patent-protected or are they all pretty much similar? I read something about intellectual property on the Butterfly Labs site, does this come in to play here and if it does how?

When this ASIC design is done by an engineer, the software is sent to a company such as Open-Silicon for them to mass produce your product? Now you have physical hardware that you then send to a company like Global Foundries. They make the chipsets to fit the specs of your hardware.

Also, where does this assembling come into play? I heard in an interview about how the CEO of Butterfly Labs wasn't so comfortable outsourcing because it took them awhile to put things together right. He mentioned how you have to put the chips in and glue/insulate(?) them at a certain temperature. You gotta screw in the heatsink with a certain amount of torque. He said all of these things were done within his lab at first but that he had to outsource a little to keep up. So you get the finished hardware from Global Foundries and then you still have to put some chips in? I got confused here. Thank you all.

[Airwhale]

I found these really helpful in understanding the questions you are asking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvluuAIiA50

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out

Basically,  BFL and Cointerra have programs which simulate a chip.  They play around with these simulations,  and then they eventually send a working design to a company like Global Foundries to make the actual physical chips.  Global foundries makes several million each time a company goes to them to make chips,  but I think companies like BFL and Cointerra are making more than enough money.  I would not worry too much about them =P

[bitstyles007]

That was so awesome. Thank you for that.